Operation Rah-e-Nijat

[waraich66]

Fundamentalist, you have no idea where the PAF is dropping their bombs. It defies reason that they are dropping their bombs anywhere OTHER THAN the same places that drone strikes have been directed. After all, the targeting intelligence and decision makers are the same. the only difference is that the drones have enough dwell time and accuracy to make sure the target is legitimate and to minimize collateral damage. Air plane strikes are an order of magnitude less controlled. Please think.

I know very well , the strategy of PAF is only to target the possible hurdles or enemy hide outs in way of army advancement.

Drones usage is totally different but result are not incouraging lot of innocient killing reported.

 

[arslan_treen]

well sir dont want to inflame but so called civilian shoudnt me medling with these scum bags ..u cant jump in a mud pond and want ur cloths not to get dirty .. i dont know why people dont understand a simple fact that Drones are controlled by Pakistanis and they are doing a great job ..i am from Fata and man that its a mess down there .. i hope they speed up the strike process .

 

[TruthSeeker]

I know very well , the strategy of PAF is only to target the possible hurdles or enemy hide outs in way of army advancement.

No, Fundamentalist, YOU don't know. You are just blowing smoke. How about this news article:

"ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (CNN) -- Pakistani jet fighters and attack helicopters fired on militant hideouts in South Waziristan, killing more than 20 militants, a senior military official told CNN.

The Thursday strikes targeted hideouts in and around the villages of Ladha, Makeen, Nawaz Kot and Sararogha, said the official, who asked not to be named because he is not authorized to speak to the media."

Pakistan attacks militant hideouts - CNN.com

 

[TruthSeeker]

Also, Fundamentalist, there is this report:

27 die in S Waziristan blitz
Friday, October 16, 2009

PESHAWAR: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) warplanes on Thursday bombed suspected Taliban outposts in South Waziristan Agency (SWA) in which 27 people died, security officials said.

“There was heavy bombing today (Thursday). Twenty-seven people were killed, it was not clear how many were militants,” one security official told AFP on condition of anonymity. The dead were in three separate locations, he added.

Another security official quoted the same death toll, although independent confirmation and the identities of the dead were not immediately clear.“We are targeting militant hideouts with jetfighters and helicopter gunships in the first phase of an operation in South Waziristan,” said Secretary Law and Order Fata Tariq Hayat. “There are some 1,500 foreign militants including Uzbeks, Chechens, Arabs and Sudanese in South Waziristan,” he added. Residents said jets carried out repeated sorties in the area on Thursday.óAFP

Our Wana correspondent adds: Tribal sources said five militants and two civilians were killed in the PAF jets’ bombardment. Ten more people sustained injuries in the air raid that hit militants’ hideouts in Makeen, Spin Kamar, Saam and Badar areas in Ladha and in Nano, Barwand and Kokatkhel areas of Sarwakai.

Sources said the air strikes were carried out following firing of two rockets at a security forces’ picket in Jandola. Two security personnel were injured in the attack made from the nearby mountains.

Tribesmen in the area said the injured included both militants and civilians. They said the air raids started at 10am following which huge blasts were heard in the area. They said the jets destroyed several militants’ hideouts as columns of smoke could be seen billowing from the areas believed to be the strongholds of the Taliban.Meanwhile, Tariq Hayat said military operation had already been launched in South Waziristan. Talking to reporters, he said the action was taken in Makeen, Spin Kamar and Ladha.

27 die in S Waziristan blitz
___________________

So, Fundamentalist, you are fundamentally WRONG about the difference between PAF strikes and drone strikes.

 

[fatman17]

^in a war of this kind, unfortunately such will happen!

 

[TaimiKhan]

Fundamentalist, you have no idea where the PAF is dropping their bombs. It defies reason that they are dropping their bombs anywhere OTHER THAN the same places that drone strikes have been directed. After all, the targeting intelligence and decision makers are the same. the only difference is that the drones have enough dwell time and accuracy to make sure the target is legitimate and to minimize collateral damage. Air plane strikes are an order of magnitude less controlled. Please think.

Drone target militants mostly in crowded urban places, in their homes or places where they are staying with their hosts, hosts having their families, or houses which are very small & attached are other peoples houses, resulting in collateral damage of innocent people in the shape of families of hosts, or their own families or due to the small target size, the destruction of the missile is great resulting in destruction & death of people in houses attached to the target house.

As for PAF, they target the confirmed militant hideouts in the shape of terrorist camps, training camps, bases, caves, their positions located on hill tops or in hills. PAF jets have not targeted the urban areas or densely populated areas which the drones do. So the collateral damage in case of PAF is either negligible or at the lowest, the collateral damage in case of PAF is due to militants for taking their families or innocent people where they are not supposed to take them.

Now with the help of ISI the collateral damage due to drones has decreased as before Americans did not had any reliable information as who is in those places, they would just come with all guns blazing & kill anyone with or around the intended target.

So there is one hell of a difference in how your people do the strikes & how we do it here.

 

[waraich66]

Also, Fundamentalist, there is this report:

27 die in S Waziristan blitz
Friday, October 16, 2009

PESHAWAR: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) warplanes on Thursday bombed suspected Taliban outposts in South Waziristan Agency (SWA) in which 27 people died, security officials said.

“There was heavy bombing today (Thursday). Twenty-seven people were killed, it was not clear how many were militants,” one security official told AFP on condition of anonymity. The dead were in three separate locations, he added.

Another security official quoted the same death toll, although independent confirmation and the identities of the dead were not immediately clear.“We are targeting militant hideouts with jetfighters and helicopter gunships in the first phase of an operation in South Waziristan,” said Secretary Law and Order Fata Tariq Hayat. “There are some 1,500 foreign militants including Uzbeks, Chechens, Arabs and Sudanese in South Waziristan,” he added. Residents said jets carried out repeated sorties in the area on Thursday.óAFP

Our Wana correspondent adds: Tribal sources said five militants and two civilians were killed in the PAF jets’ bombardment. Ten more people sustained injuries in the air raid that hit militants’ hideouts in Makeen, Spin Kamar, Saam and Badar areas in Ladha and in Nano, Barwand and Kokatkhel areas of Sarwakai.

Sources said the air strikes were carried out following firing of two rockets at a security forces’ picket in Jandola. Two security personnel were injured in the attack made from the nearby mountains.

Tribesmen in the area said the injured included both militants and civilians. They said the air raids started at 10am following which huge blasts were heard in the area. They said the jets destroyed several militants’ hideouts as columns of smoke could be seen billowing from the areas believed to be the strongholds of the Taliban.Meanwhile, Tariq Hayat said military operation had already been launched in South Waziristan. Talking to reporters, he said the action was taken in Makeen, Spin Kamar and Ladha.

27 die in S Waziristan blitz
___________________

So, Fundamentalist, you are fundamentally WRONG about the difference between PAF strikes and drone strikes.

More than 900000 civilians already vocated these areas , read the news carefully.

It is now impossible to diffferentiate between civilian and militants.

Use your common sense .

 

[TruthSeeker]

Drone target militants mostly in crowded urban places

This is total BS. The drone strikes have occurred in isolated rural areas and against specific compounds and houses. Most have occurred in the very early morning hours so that there are no passers by. You are unreasonable in the distinction you are making. I am merely pointing out that, as Fatman notes, the injuring and killing of some "innocents" is inevitable when war is being waged. The PA WANTS the US to strike against the TTP leadership people who hide in houses and not on hilltops in plain view.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Its a matter of sovereignty and principle - the US should not be operating militarily in any Pakistani territory or airspace - period.

If targets need to be attacked, drones or other equipment needed should be provided to Pakistan and Pakistan will do the necessary, as it has done in the past.

 

[TaimiKhan]

This is total BS. The drone strikes have occurred in isolated rural areas and against specific compounds and houses. Most have occurred in the very early morning hours so that there are no passers by. You are unreasonable in the distinction you are making. I am merely pointing out that, as Fatman notes, the injuring and killing of some "innocents" is inevitable when war is being waged. The PA WANTS the US to strike against the TTP leadership people who hide in houses and not on hilltops in plain view.

US has not been interested nor wants to target TTP leadership, their priority is Al Qaeda & Afghan Taliban members. As i said most of the strikes happen in urban areas, not all. Some in open areas on some kind of compounds. And the recent targeting of TTP has been due to the pressure applied by Pakistan, but still not enough to suggest US is serious in targeting them.

 

[PAFAce]

Why hasn't there been a mass evacuation of the area like the Swat-Malakand-Bajaur Op? When someone asked me why Rah-e-Rast had been such a success, one of the reasons that were up top on my list was the fact that the civilians had vacated the arena to let the Army deal with the "miscreants" directly.

Take away civilians from the area, and you will take away an incredible resource from the TTP, the ability to blend into the masses and use them as shields. It will also reduce civilian casualties, for which Rah-e-Rast was a gold standard. The Army and government need to get their heads out of their ***** and get the civilians before public support deteriorates. Then, blitz the area in one massive envelopment, and drop the SSG right on top of the TTP heartland. Let them run into Afghanistan if they want to, leave them no room to run into Pakistan. The ISAF can take care of them when they're on the other side of the border. I will write more about this in the future, but I just don't see the same intensity and "walwala" from the Army or the people that we saw in Rah-e-Rast.

 

[SSGPA1]

Take away civilians from the area, and you will take away an incredible resource from the TTP, the ability to blend into the masses and use them as shields. It will also reduce civilian casualties, for which Rah-e-Rast was a gold standard. The Army and government need to get their heads out of their ***** and get the civilians before public support deteriorates..

The cost of that was very high and the infrastructure was also better than what we have in SW. Another issue is the fast approach of winter, IMHO, operation should happen in SW but when PA is ready and not when the terrorsists want us to go in. Imagine the sufferings of civilians in camps during the winter. You and I know the cold weathers as we are both in Canada.

Then, blitz the area in one massive envelopment, and drop the SSG right on top of the TTP heartland. Let them run into Afghanistan if they want to, leave them no room to run into Pakistan. The ISAF can take care of them when they're on the other side of the border. I will write more about this in the future, but I just don't see the same intensity and "walwala" from the Army or the people that we saw in Rah-e-Rast.

SSG shouldn't be involved as this is not their role.

 

[PAFAce]

The cost of that was very high and the infrastructure was also better than what we have in SW. Another issue is the fast approach of winter, IMHO, operation should happen in SW but when PA is ready and not when the terrorsists want us to go in. Imagine the sufferings of civilians in camps during the winter. You and I know the cold weathers as we are both in Canada.

Yes, and I agree with you on this, we must fight on our own terms. But, the momentum is already building up, I do foresee an op sometime soon. Otherwise, over the Winter, the public support will plummet big time, if these attacks continue over the winter. What's more, the winter will allow them to reform and regroup, plan battle strategies and everything. We can't allow them to get stronger in Waziristan, it will have direct implications in Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad, Rawalpindi, Peshawar and Quetta, especially the last two.

SSG shouldn't be involved as this is not their role.

This is exactly the kind of role the SSG is for. You cannot have infantry units fight this fight, because the enemy does not engage in conventional warfare. This is dirty, house to house, street to street, hilltop to hilltop fighting. This is where a small elite force is supposed to shine and large infantries fail. Fighting the Taleban the conventional way is what has gotten the US in such a hole in Afghanistan. Even in Swat, the infantry went in to hold and clear ground, the SSG were the ones attacking militant hideouts and doing the nasty work. In Parachinar, for example, the SSG was dropped on top and the Infantry moved in from the bottom. In the middle, Army Aviation did its thing. The miscreants were squashed in the middle of the SSG and the Infantry, and the area was cleared. Hence, the high SSG death rate. They don't complain because this is what they signed up for, but we owe this unit a lot. They have never been more important to us than today.

Correction: Peochar, not Parachinar. Thanks taimikhan.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Yes, and I agree with you on this, we must fight on our own terms. But, the momentum is already building up, I do foresee an op sometime soon. Otherwise, over the Winter, the public support will plummet big time, if these attacks continue over the winter. What's more, the winter will allow them to reform and regroup, plan battle strategies and everything. We can't allow them to get stronger in Waziristan, it will have direct implications in Lahore, Karachi, Islamabad, Rawalpindi, Peshawar and Quetta, especially the last two.


This is exactly the kind of role the SSG is for. You cannot have infantry units fight this fight, because the enemy does not engage in conventional warfare. This is dirty, house to house, street to street, hilltop to hilltop fighting. This is where a small elite force is supposed to shine and large infantries fail. Fighting the Taleban the conventional way is what has gotten the US in such a hole in Afghanistan. Even in Swat, the infantry went in to hold and clear ground, the SSG were the ones attacking militant hideouts and doing the nasty work. In Parachinar, for example, the SSG was dropped on top and the Infantry moved in from the bottom. In the middle, Army Aviation did its thing. The miscreants were squashed in the middle of the SSG and the Infantry, and the area was cleared. Hence, the high SSG death rate. They don't complain because this is what they signed up for, but we owe this unit a lot. They have never been more important to us than today.

Sir, i believe you meant to say Peochar in Swat, not Parachinar in Kurram Agency ??

 

[SSGPA1]

Otherwise, over the Winter, the public support will plummet big time, if these attacks continue over the winter. What's more, the winter will allow them to reform and regroup, plan battle strategies and everything..

Public support may further down for Zaradri but the support for action in SW will remain. I understand and agree with your concern but we don't have the resources to manage an influx of 100K plus people from SW in winter. If we are not able to support these people then it will only increase support fort he terrorists in SW.

In Parachinar, for example, the SSG was dropped on top and the Infantry moved in from the bottom. In the middle, Army Aviation did its thing. The miscreants were squashed in the middle of the SSG and the Infantry, and the area was cleared. Hence, the high SSG death rate. They don't complain because this is what they signed up for, but we owe this unit a lot. They have never been more important to us than today.

You're right about SSG role and their recent actions but these areas were not densly populated and SW is. I want to see infantry going in with tanks and air support and then stay there allowing the civilain admin to work and rebuild. If there is an opp to use SSG then sure but we can't overworK SSG.