Operation Barbarossa: The Biggest Military Adventure in History

[vostok]

A soldier must always follow the order given by his command to best of his ability....otherwise there are deeper problems afoot than logistics. So I dont think its an issue of german minds per se. The Germans did come darn close, hypotheticals are easy to make in 20/20 hindsight.

BTW the Germans have had their fair share of warriors before Napoleon came around. Holy Roman Empire definitely had its victorious moments in warfare...and equally crushing defeats. Augustus Caesar could probably tell you a thing or two about the Goths too....it just won't be a polite expression lets leave it at that. ...but you needed to have some semblance of warrior spirit to take on the superpower of its day, win and haunt them on what happened (Rhine and Danube made boundaries) for the rest of their existence.

Actially there were other Germanic tribes at the famous battle with Romans, not Goths. But this does not cancel the fact that the Germanic tribes were excellent warriors already at the dawn of our era.

 

[Nilgiri]

Actially there were other Germanic tribes at the famous battle with Romans, not Goths. But this does not cancel the fact that the Germanic tribes were excellent warriors already at the dawn of our era.

Indeed I stand corrected. Teutoni and their proxies then. Some say they were more Celtic than Germanic. All I know is they wiped out three entire legions in the Teutoburg forests....and that made Augustus rant and rave for P.Q Varus (commander) to "give me back my legions!".

 

[vostok]

Indeed I stand corrected. Teutoni and their proxies then. Some say they were more Celtic than Germanic. All I know is they wiped out three entire legions in the Teutoburg forests....and that made Augustus rant and rave for P.Q Varus (commander) to "give me back my legions!".

Heruski were the main force. Btw some historians here claims that Heruski was of Russian origin, not Germanic - because of the name.

 

[Deidara]

Indeed I stand corrected. Teutoni and their proxies then. Some say they were more Celtic than Germanic. All I know is they wiped out three entire legions in the Teutoburg forests....and that made Augustus rant and rave for P.Q Varus (commander) to "give me back my legions!".

I thought the exact wording was "Give me back my eagles." As eagle was the standard of a roman legion. And given the the propensity of greco-romans for rhetoric i find it very likely.

 

[wiseone2]

Its a bit of a hypothetical to be honest. While I agree focusing on grabbing the oil fields was probably the better strategy (in hindsight)...Hitler (plus a number of his generals who he unfortunately formed an echo chamber of) had a strong and valid reason for going after Stalingrad past just the name it bore (which has been overhyped by many historians I feel).

This was to guard the rear (and logistics chain) of the caucasus assault...a break (both bank control) of the volga river was needed at some point to accomplish this (given the supply route of the river +Caspian Sea for the Soviet forces to assault any weakness in the Caucasus supply chains both before and hypothetically afterwards too).

The mistake was in choosing an urban environment for this break (the name of Stalin in the city did tip this for Hitler)....but again its easy to see it in hindsight. At the time of the initial assault on Stalingrad, no one had any idea what sustained urban warfare would be like (it wasnt even really planned for by the Germans, they expected to conduct swift encirclement). Even Leningrad (closest parallel at the time) was effectively a partial siege. But the idea to take no chances in protecting the rear of the caucasus assault comes from sound strategy too (given the Germans had faced such problems in various theatres of barbarossa earlier). It was implemented badly (and with bias - a commanders worst enemy). In hindsight, a breach of the volga river could have been done at several other areas without a city to slow it down and act as an eventual quagmire and turning point.

By the time it had turned to a morass and logjam, Hitler valued saving face over sound strategic doctrine...and the rest they say is history.

@AUSTERLITZ @Levina @The Sandman @Desert Fox @Psychic @Vergennes@vostok

Your inputs if you have any regarding this?

The only chance of German victory was a decisive knockout blow either at Moscow or at Baku oilfields
They had 4-5 months to deliver the knockout blow.

 

[Deidara]

One can argue that there was a lack of imagination on the German even in this most imaginative of military operations. What led to the change of plan midway was the exposed flanks of the giant pincers envisioned to envelop the masses of Russian forces. But had there been only two gargantuan pincers, one in the north and the other in the south, they could've met in Moscow, taking the city and encircling whole Russia between them. The northern pincer would've been protected by the Baltic sea and the southern pincer by the Black sea. They both reach the Volga, turn towards Moscow and link up there.

 

[Desert Fox]

A soldier must always follow the order given by his command to best of his ability....otherwise there are deeper problems afoot than logistics. So I dont think its an issue of german minds per se. The Germans did come darn close, hypotheticals are easy to make in 20/20 hindsight.

BTW the Germans have had their fair share of warriors before Napoleon came around. Holy Roman Empire definitely had its victorious moments in warfare...and equally crushing defeats. Augustus Caesar could probably tell you a thing or two about the Goths too....it just won't be a polite expression lets leave it at that. ...but you needed to have some semblance of warrior spirit to take on the superpower of its day, win and haunt them on what happened (Rhine and Danube made boundaries) for the rest of their existence.

Also Arminius. Defeated the Roman legions.

 

[Georg]

Indeed I stand corrected. Teutoni and their proxies then. Some say they were more Celtic than Germanic. All I know is they wiped out three entire legions in the Teutoburg forests....and that made Augustus rant and rave for P.Q Varus (commander) to "give me back my legions!".

The orgins of the Celts is south Germany and Austria 600BC from there they spread over north Germany, France Spain Czech Swiss north Italy and England 275BC...

The battle of the Teuteburgerwald or the Varian Deasaster which actualy did not happen in the Teuteburg forrest... today most belive the battle was at Kalkriese near Osnabrück because their they have found a huge battlefield with thousends of roman Legion leftovers..

The battle was fought by a aliance of Cherusci under the lead of Arminius who was a nobel Cherusci their main land was in center Germany Harz mountain, Marsi their main land was south of the river Ruhr east of river Rhein they were neighbors of the Cherusci in the east...and the Bructeri they lifed north of the Marsi and were also neighbors of the Cherusci in the east...

There were no Teutoni Heruski or Goths ...thats all bullcrap claims

This three groups formed a aliance under the leadership of Armenius, the defeat for the Romans was huge they lost in 3 days Legion XVII, XVIII, XIX, 3 Ala units on horse and 6 cohort...that was more than 10% of the overall strenght of the Roman Empire spread over their huge Empire... after the battle were only 2 Legions left in the area that stand between the Germanic tribes and Italy. If Arminus would have marched south it would be very likely that he could have reached Rom, befor Rom would have been able to move enough troops into postion to stop him.

The most important fact is that Arminius beat Roman Superpower on its peak power point not during their downfall or rais up...

 

[C130]

only if Germany had invaded France and the low countries in 1939 and attacked USSR in 1940 things would have turned out a lot differently. Finland showed how weak the USSR truly was during this period of time.

after the Winter war USSR had over a year to fix what went wrong. plenty of time to get better leaders, better tactics, and improve equipment like the tank.

Germany invades in 1940 a few months after the end of the Winter war that leaves no time to correct these issues.

time beat Hitler

 

[Georg]

the main failure of Babarossa was the delay because of the Balkan war... if the Italians would not have forced Germany to help them out in Yougslavia and Greece, Germany would have reached Moscow long befor mother winter helped out the Red Army... if the capture of Moscow would have broken the russian resitance is a other question. But it is very likely that the Allied would have droped their support if Moscow would have fallen in 1941 befor the winter.

 

[SecularNationalist]

Hitlers biggest mistake.This mission changed the outcome of WW2.
And how russians defended the motherland is just incredible.

 

[Georg]

Heruski were the main force. Btw some historians here claims that Heruski was of Russian origin, not Germanic - because of the name.

I guess with Heruski you mean Cherusker


Latin Cherusci first mentioned by Julius Ceasar....he called them Cherusci

they were the main force of the attacker... and no there is nothing russian ... the orginal name comes from the germanic word herut (deer) ... in the germanic symbolism the deer was a very important creature... Ceasar called them Cherusci... wich later turned into german Cherusker and english Cherusci sometimes Cherusks

 

[Desert Fox]

Interesting video. Your thoughts @Nilgiri @Psychic @AUSTERLITZ

Consider the above video in light of these quotes from the earlier article

Because he did not believe that his generals understood Germany's immense economic and strategic requirements, or the critical economic and strategic importance of the eastern campaign, Hitler rejected their pleas to push on to Moscow in August 1941.

It was most urgent in his [Hitler's] view to deprive Stalin of his raw materials and arms industry.

We simply do not know whether the fall of the Soviet capital would have moved Britain finally to acknowledge German hegemony on the continent and bring her to the negotiating table, or induce the United States to discontinue military aid to Soviet Russia.

rapidly increasing American economic and military aid to the Soviet Union, or its possible effect on the Soviet ability to wage war if the Germans captured Moscow

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Germany lost because -

>Understimation of soviet industrial and mobilization potential and capacity of the russian people to resist the genocidal campaign he wanted to wage.The soviet state lost a third to half its steel and coal production,population in the early days of the war but by redeploying its industries in the nick of time by disassembling and transporting them beyond the urals along with 17 million people evacuated,then in a tremendous effort basically replacing its whole strength twice in 6 months it stopped the germans.

>Manpower.Germany didn't have the manpower for a long war of conquest on a global scale.As henry kissinger once said - ''Poor germany,too big for europe,too small for the world''.Soviet advantage was that they had double the nominal manpower base as germany .They also employed millions of women in combat and auxillary roles(gunners,tankers,snipers,logistical staff,nurses,pilots).The military age manpower was also relatively greater for ussr.To add to this Germany didn't have conscription between 1918 and 1935 due to versailles,so the conscription batches of these 17 years were 'lost batches' with no training.USSR had continued compulsory service throughout ,so all of its male population had some experience even if rudimentary.

>Prefering ideology over sense/facts to answer key questions.Thus going easy on britain at dunkirk over 'racial affinity',not using large numbers of disaffected ukrainian and russian troops as allies,instead brutally liquidating them because of 'racial inferiority',wastage of vast amounts of resources on killing of jews and partisans.Refusal to evacuate territory because of fanatical belief in 'superhuman' german soldier to defy laws of warfare against inferior slavs.Total understimation time after time of soviet war potential.

>Suicidal declaration of war on USA while still at war with russia and britain.Hitler on 8th december 1941(the very day russian counterattak before moscow was about to begin) thought ussr was finished.Totally understimated US industrial potential.When you casually declare war on a nation 1.5 times your population,20% of world's GDP(even after great depression,rising to nearly 40% in 1945) and an industrial capacity greater than ussr,britain,italy and japan combined you must be dumb or delusional.

>Didn't mobilize for total war until 1944.Women in germany didn't work until late in the war while millions of women in britain and usssr(children even) toiled.Also chaotic industrial organization due to internal rivalry between nazi economic czars before speer.German factories were in the smaller workshop style and suited for high quality finish of limited products.Russians and americans in chelyabinsk(tankograd) and detroit built enormous city sized complexes on an assembly line which mass produced vehicles with economics of scale.Russians were also more practical with production philosophy,building engines meant to last for 6 months only - the avg life span of a tank on the eastern front while germans built complete highly manufactured gear until the later years.

>Oil.Only really had ploesti in rumania,some in hungary and synthetic plants which the western allies bombed to shit.Main reason for overambitious caucasus drive in 1942.

>Intelligence failure.Enigma codes got cracked and cost them the battle of the atlantic as well as confirming the attack on kursk salient.Failed to estimate the actual strength of the soviet divisions in 1941(in reality it was 3 times the estimate).Totally unaware of existence of T-34/KV tanks or katyusha rocket launchers.Fooled at Normandy as to location of landings.
Design secrets of me-109 were leaked and incorporated during design of spitfire by british intelligence,without this britain may have lost the battle of britain in 1940.

>Poor strategic decision to attack russia without taking gibraltar and north africa and securing the mediterranean and middle east .This would have given them oil,a direct invasion route into caucasus and india.Just 5-10 divisions given to rommel could have accomplished this.Britain would have been powerless to resist and the rest of the wehrmacht could guard the eastern border with russia.

>Several poor tactical decisions of 'no retreat' style starting with stalingrad and continuing from 1943 onwards.

>Poor use of breakthrough technology.Wasted the surprise shock effect of tiger tanks by getting one isolated trial version knocked out and captured in late 1942 near leningrad instead of springing a surprise with massed battalions of the vehicle at kursk.Russians examined the vehicle and prepared heavy tank destroyers as a result and were ready with su-85 and isu-152 at kursk.Hitlker's objections delayed deployment and mass production of STG-44 assault rifle by a year.Wasted me-262 jet fighter by using it as a bomber.

 

[Nilgiri]

Your thoughts

One word: oil

Maybe Germany should have gone through Turkey instead to get to the caucus oil fields and also middle east oil fields quicker and easier... rather than barbarossa and african campaign simultaneously....and splitting into two theatres to get to the oil (and I guess strategic black sea access and suez canal too)....rather than focusing on just one first.

But then again if that failed, we would be suggesting what the Germans ended up doing (all out campaign to put Russian industrial and political heartlands out of commision ASAP) War is such a thing.