Open Discussion: Myanmar and Bangladesh Armed Force

[Nilgiri]

Why you keep going back to 1970s Type-347 radar??!!

We need to talk about Type-364 radar which has NO RELATION to Type-347 and is an upgrade of the Type-360 radar. See below:

No relation? All the types come from the same family....just like DA08 w.r.t its own family. Each is just an iteration and incremental improvement of the former. They are the same pulse doppler technology....you think there is any huge difference between pulse doppler radars in the world today on the basis of purely their official date of introduction?

This technology has notable weaknesses when corvette sized....thats why they are primarily meant for CIWS and not SAM. The SAM (FL-3000) is just there to take out basic aerial threats (at altitude). It is NOT a barak 8 quality Missile interceptor.

Just take my word for it that sea-skimming cruise missiles will be detected at 20-30kms and the radar will be able to fire 2 FL-3000N SAMs as soon as the missiles are predicted to be within the 6km engagement range.

Your word? What are you some radar engineer that worked on the system?

 

[UKBengali]

No relation? All the types come from the same family....just like DA08 w.r.t its own family. Each is just an iteration and incremental improvement of the former. They are the same pulse doppler technology....you think there is any huge difference between pulse doppler radars in the world today on the basis of purely their official date of introduction?

This technology has notable weaknesses when corvette sized....thats why they are primarily meant for CIWS and not SAM. The SAM (FL-3000) is just there to take out basic aerial threats (at altitude). It is NOT a barak 8 quality Missile interceptor.



Your word? What are you some radar engineer that worked on the system?

I will not reply to you unless you start talking sense from now on.

A modern pulse doppler radar that was introduced in 2013 is a quantum level about one from the 1970s. It's ability to handle background clutter and ECM would be much enhanced. A pulse doppler radar on a fighter from the 1960s is so much worse in terms of detection range and ability to handle low flying targets than one from the 1990s. The same principle applies to ship radars as well.

As regards your retarded comment about FL-3000N, see the below link:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...5/china-unveils-new-ship_defense-missile.html

"As a naval point-defense missile system, HongQi-10 boasts a particularly quick response to low-altitude missiles that area-defense systems fail to intercept"

" aims at missiles only 1.5 to 10 meters above the sea level"

Here is another link:

http://defenseupdates.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/fl-3000n-hhq-10-missile-ciws-air.html

"The FL-3000N is designed to protect ships against saturation attacks and is very similar to Raytheon's RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM). Both subsonic and supersonic threats can be engaged as well as multiple, highly maneuverable or sea-skimming targets simultaneously".

 

[Aung Zaya]

they r using manpads for their stealth frigates...??!!!!..even our type-056 got FL-3000..btw,those frigates r just sitting ducks there..

Yes and they are bragging about how "advanced" their frigates are.

Once BD starts inducting 4+ gen fighters in numbers,
Myanmar will be nothing for BD military to handle.

in here.. we need to know about Gibka system of Russia navy.. which is already installed in Buyan-M missile class and will be installed in mistral type LHD.. Do u think our MANPAD will work like this what is doing in BD navy..?

Nope.. we used like this..

GIBKA in Russia Navy...

we're doing this in Myanmar version co-operating with other country.. so u can called it Myanmar Gibka.. i think that's why some one said why we got improvement in co-operation with Myanmar in Naval field.. lol just kidding..!!
i admitted it is still weak for AD.. but we're fixing and will fix any error in our ship.. to get a better version in current building ones.. if u are the one who looked carefully our ships , u will notice what we have upgraded and upgrading.. let me show u something..
that's our F-12 weapon taken in some years ago..

but now..?

they all got an cover to reduce some RCS..

Dont worry.. i heard we will replace them with new system.. hope we get some cool AD..

 

[Nilgiri]

A modern pulse doppler radar that was introduced in 2013 is a quantum level about one from the 1970s.

Quantum level lol. Do you even know anything about pulse doppler technology?

How does your logic that the Chinese radar is upgraded to shuper dooper new generation technology (even though its heritage is from the 70s as well) not apply to the Thales system as well? Did you physically buy an original Thales system from the 70s or something for BangaBandhu?

It's ability to handle background clutter and ECM would be much enhanced. A pulse doppler radar on a fighter from the 1960s is so much worse in terms of detection range and ability to handle low flying targets than one from the 1990s. The same principle applies to ship radars as well.

"Enhanced" "Worse" and such qualifications do not mean much without numbers I am afraid. Even 1% counts as an "enhancement" right? But does it significantly alter the overall capability?

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...5/china-unveils-new-ship_defense-missile.html

"As a naval point-defense missile system, HongQi-10 boasts a particularly quick response to low-altitude missiles that area-defense systems fail to intercept"

" aims at missiles only 1.5 to 10 meters above the sea level"

Source: Global times (CPC english mouthpiece)....yawn.

Here is another link:

http://defenseupdates.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/fl-3000n-hhq-10-missile-ciws-air.html

"The FL-3000N is designed to protect ships against saturation attacks and is very similar to Raytheon's RIM-116 Rolling Airframe Missile (RAM). Both subsonic and supersonic threats can be engaged as well as multiple, highly maneuverable or sea-skimming targets simultaneously".

This one states the FL-3000 is actually classified as part of the CIWS. So this means the whole ship is vulnerable to more general aerial threats given the maximum range of this system?

Anyway I think I get what you are trying to say overall, that the corvettes are the CIWS/close range mitigation for incoming sea skimmers while the frigate provides larger aerial countering with its FM-90+ Larger Thales (esp if MTI version) so everything is hedged as best as possible in one battle group.

In the end we can only judge by performance in combat....on paper no system is invulnerable and it must be noted that the Burmese have access to the same chinese technology they can test against to develop the best counter tactics and strategy.

It is never ending cat and mouse.

 

[alaungphaya]

in here.. we need to know about Gibka system of Russia navy.. which is already installed in Buyan-M missile class and will be installed in mistral type LHD.. Do u think our MANPAD will work like this what is doing in BD navy..?
View attachment 320332
Nope.. we used like this..
View attachment 320333

GIBKA in Russia Navy...

View attachment 320334
we're doing this in Myanmar version co-operating with other country.. so u can called it Myanmar Gibka.. i think that's why some one said why we got improvement in co-operation with Myanmar in Naval field.. lol just kidding..!!
i admitted it is still weak for AD.. but we're fixing and will fix any error in our ship.. to get a better version in current building ones.. if u are the one who looked carefully our ships , u will notice what we have upgraded and upgrading.. let me show u something..
that's our F-12 weapon taken in some years ago..

View attachment 320335

View attachment 320336

but now..?
View attachment 320338

View attachment 320339
they all got an cover to reduce some RCS..

Dont worry.. i heard we will replace them with new system.. hope we get some cool AD..

I read that the Kyansittha class carries 3 CIWS systems each. Is that true?

 

[ghost250]

in here.. we need to know about Gibka system of Russia navy.. which is already installed in Buyan-M missile class and will be installed in mistral type LHD.. Do u think our MANPAD will work like this what is doing in BD navy..?
View attachment 320332
Nope.. we used like this..
View attachment 320333

GIBKA in Russia Navy...

View attachment 320334
we're doing this in Myanmar version co-operating with other country.. so u can called it Myanmar Gibka.. i think that's why some one said why we got improvement in co-operation with Myanmar in Naval field.. lol just kidding..!!
i admitted it is still weak for AD.. but we're fixing and will fix any error in our ship.. to get a better version in current building ones.. if u are the one who looked carefully our ships , u will notice what we have upgraded and upgrading.. let me show u something..
that's our F-12 weapon taken in some years ago..

View attachment 320335

View attachment 320336

but now..?
View attachment 320338

View attachment 320339
they all got an cover to reduce some RCS..

Dont worry.. i heard we will replace them with new system.. hope we get some cool AD..

gibka,igla whatever the name is,those r same thing..i think,u can take down a drone with these,nthng else..their range is too short..u have a fine warship,infact a stealth one..but ur warships AD system is very poor..

 

[UKBengali]

gibka,igla whatever the name is,those r same thing..i think,u can take down a drone with these,nthng else..their range is too short..u have a fine warship,infact a stealth one..but ur warships AD system is very poor..

Helicopters, and if you get lucky a fighter that stupidly comes in below 10,000 feet to attack.

in here.. we need to know about Gibka system of Russia navy.. which is already installed in Buyan-M missile class and will be installed in mistral type LHD.. Do u think our MANPAD will work like this what is doing in BD navy..?
View attachment 320332
Nope.. we used like this..
View attachment 320333

GIBKA in Russia Navy...

View attachment 320334
we're doing this in Myanmar version co-operating with other country.. so u can called it Myanmar Gibka.. i think that's why some one said why we got improvement in co-operation with Myanmar in Naval field.. lol just kidding..!!
i admitted it is still weak for AD.. but we're fixing and will fix any error in our ship.. to get a better version in current building ones.. if u are the one who looked carefully our ships , u will notice what we have upgraded and upgrading.. let me show u something..
that's our F-12 weapon taken in some years ago..

View attachment 320335

View attachment 320336

but now..?
View attachment 320338

View attachment 320339
they all got an cover to reduce some RCS..

Dont worry.. i heard we will replace them with new system.. hope we get some cool AD..

Does Myanmar have any plans to arm it's frigates with medium-range VLS SAMs?

BD Navy wants two of these types of frigates

 

[Nilgiri]

a fighter that stupidly comes in below 10,000 feet to attack.

So what fire and forget A2G systems does Bangladesh Air Force operate?

 

[UKBengali]

So what fire and forget A2G systems does Bangladesh Air Force operate?

Currently BD can only attack Myanmar Navy using anti-ship missiles from it's frigates/corvettes.

The air-force does not posses anti-ship missiles and so would have to go in close to use it's LGBs/SGBs which it can do relatively safely since the Myanmar Navy is very weak in air-defence.

 

[Nike]

note to mention, Royal Navy found that sea skimmer missile like Exocet is very hard to be intercepted by medium to long range air defence system regarding their lo lo flight profile. So one needed a good all around and all aspect point defence missile system like mistral, sea wolf and CAMM coupled with good long range and short range radar search and tracking system to give u responding time to engage the tango

 

[Aung Zaya]

gibka,igla whatever the name is,those r same thing..i think,u can take down a drone with these,nthng else..their range is too short..u have a fine warship,infact a stealth one..but ur warships AD system is very poor..

well.. dude.. did u google about Gibka..!? as far as i know , the same range with FL-3000N .. 6 km.. i admitted our ship is seriously need AD upgrade.. but our navy is focusing in building more ships.. in december , 1 more frigate and more LCU will be commissioned.. which take much time.. installing and upgrading will follow slowly..

 

[Aung Zaya]

I read that the Kyansittha class carries 3 CIWS systems each. Is that true?

nope.. 4 bro.. plus some DI made glatling gun... it can operate in both Automatic and manual..

 

[Penguin]

Thing is I dont think the older Thales sets are that good at performing against supersonic sea skimmers compared to the newer generations. "Poor" was directed more at the SAM system rather than the radar itself....mostly because I do not have much idea on the real world performance of the FM-90....but no major competent foreign navy seems to be in a rush to acquire it for their platforms.

What is your opinion on that...and do you have any data to show what its hypothetical performance would be against a Kh35 or C-802 saturation attack....in concert with the chinese SAM on board the bangabandhu....compared to say a newer generation radar and SAM system.

Note that DA-08 was used on the L-frigates (Heemskerck class) of the Dutch navy, a dedicated AAW ship, but not on the GP-version (S-frigate Kortenaer / Elli class) from which it derived. On the L-ships, the DA-08 was eventually replaced by Smart-S.

Thales DA08 (SPQ-501/RAWS03) E/F band (S-band) 2D radar for medium- to long-range air and surface surveillance.
While not the latest, certainly not a poor set. Specs: https://www.forecastinternational.com/archive/disp_old_pdf.cfm?ARC_ID=787
Although navies has started to replace it, it is till widely used. See e.g. http://www.thales7seas.com/html_2014/product206.html

[will be editting this post with further info]

• VARIANT surface search radar
  • VARIANT is a multipurpose, short/medium range 2D radar, simultaneously operating in the X and C-band for air and surface surveillance. It can track surface targets up to 70km and air targets up to 120km. Its principal role is as an automatic, fast reaction time radar sensor supplying targeting data to weapon systems. Its extensive features make VARIANT the answer in modern warfare, littoral and asymmetric threat environments. VARIANT provides air tracks without any operator intervention (auto target initiation and tracking). For surface targets, three fire control channels are available to support direct target engagement. The system is completed by an integrated Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) surface surveillance radar (SCOUT). https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/variant-lightweight-2d-short-medium-range-surveillance-radar
• Kelvin Hughes 1007 I-band navigation radar
  • The Kelvin Hughes Type 1007 family of naval radars are high-definition surface warning and navigational radar systems in service with the U.K. Royal Navy and several other world navies. The radars are available in I-band and F-band versions. It consists of a range of navigation, surface and air search equipment for naval use. It includes a choice of antennas, I-band and F-band transmitter/receivers and a range of displays. Reduced magnetic signature variants are available for use on mine countermeasures vessels. Replaced in production with the Sharpeye series. http://www.radartutorial.eu/19.kartei/karte504.en.html and https://www.kelvinhughes.com/maritime/naval-radar
• MIRADOR optical surveillance and tracking system
  • MIRADOR is a lightweight, compact, electro-optical multi-sensor. Thanks to its four sensors MIRADOR is capable of combining optical surveillance (good image quality) and tracking capabilities (good contrast). It uses two daylight TV cameras (surveillance & tracking), and an IR camera (tracking).An eye-safe laser range finder and an optronic tracking unit ensure that accurate target position indication is carried out. https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/mirador-electro-optical-multi-sensor
• LIROD Mk 2 Light weight, Radar/Optronic Director
  • The system has been designed for as the primary gun control system onboard of smaller ships, against both surface and air targets, and as a secondary system in larger configurations. With an appropriate gun, it is suitable for CIWS functions. LIROD Mk2 is also capable of controlling short-range missiles. The radar component system operates in the K-band, and applies a powerful TWT transmittor. Multiple optical
    sensors, including TV-tracker. https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/lirod-mk2-lightweight-radaroptronic-director
• Type 345 fire control radar (for FM-90)
  • Engagement radar for CLOS HQ7 (FM-80/90), based on the Thomson-CSF Castor CTM (Conduite de Tir Multisensor) fire control radar which is a Castor II/J with a separate IR camera (Pirana) and TV tracker. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_345_Radar and http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-IADS-Radars.html#mozTocId5336

So, in all, perhaps not the newest, but certainly when compared to other BN ships not a poor AAW sensor fit. One can debate the choice for FM90 as main AAW missile, but it can easily be replaced e.g. with modern VL short range IRH or ARH missiles. A pair of twin 40mmmakes sufficient CIWS.

One can always compare to the best the market has to offer, or to what an opponent fields or what other systems are used in the parent navy or what is used on contemporary ships in the same class (peers). Those are four very different comparisons, that will lead to very different judgements.

 

[bluesky]

Does Myanmar have any plans to arm it's frigates with medium-range VLS SAMs? BD Navy wants two of these types of frigates

Pictures of a Vertical Launch System (VLS) SAM.

 

[Aung Zaya]

Helicopters, and if you get lucky a fighter that stupidly comes in below 10,000 feet to attack.



Does Myanmar have any plans to arm it's frigates with medium-range VLS SAMs?

BD Navy wants two of these types of frigates

well.. surely we have...!! but it will be next few years.