[Obama's visit] Why India's realty scam should interest President Obama

[jayron]

A journalists who attacks Pakistanis for believing in conspiracy theories. It's to the point now where he sees conspiracy theories even when they don't exist or are only believed by a small number of people.

I read his recent parody about the flood conspiracy which was not in good taste. But if you guys think he is not worth it, he should not be given so much importance. I see he has a big fan following in Pakistan leave alone the Indians. Imagine if an Indian paper is paying him and he writes these parodies about Pakistan for Indians.. Wont that irritate you? That's what Javed is doing.

 

[SMC]

I read his recent parody about the flood conspiracy which was not in good taste. But if you guys think he is not worth it, he should not be given so much importance. I see he has a big fan following in Pakistan leave alone the Indians. Imagine if an Indian paper is paying him and he writes these parodies about Pakistan for Indians.. Wont that irritate you? That's what Javed is doing.

I don't see him being given much importance, however it's Indians who keep bringing up his articles and interviews everytime he has one.

 

[TechLahore]

Not a response to the article, but questioning the motives and credibility of the institution that employs (part time, full time whatever)the person raising the points.

You are welcome to question anything you like, but I haven't seen an Indian paper half as credible or half as moderate as DAWN.

Also, attacking DAWN doesn't change the reality of the events alluded to in the article. These are facts and they have indeed happened. From the staged encounters with Pakistani troops in Siachen, to the real estate scandal and more.

As for those who have missed the rather clear point of the article, it is simply this; that the role of the Indian Army has been quite dubious - due to corruption, a burning desire to appear heroic (ala Siachen fake encounters) and general malice towards Pakistanis & Kashmiris - and that this fact is not/should not be lost upon the US establishment. He further explains that, ignoring the meaningless lollipop handouts, Reidel/Obama's true views on the issue of Kashmir are indeed that it *is* a dispute, and it must be settled. To this end, the US is engaging both China (initially, very publicly) and Pakistan while delivering the message to India that the solution to the region's problems does not lie in undermining Pakistan.

If all of this is done under the cover of two statements which, upon even superficial analysis, are completely meaningless, then so be it. The two statements which are being sung as an endless thumree in India are:

1) Terrorist havens inside Pakistan are unacceptable
2) US welcomes India as it prepares to join the Sec Council as a perm member

If anyone thinks that statement #1 is being made for the first time, or that it hasn't been discussed extensively between the US and Pakistan for the past 9 years, then their name is probably Rip Van Winkle and they just woke up after decades of slumber. Without going into the details, the net-net is that there has been constant give and take on this issue and where we've ended up most recently is that the US has announced an additional $2B of military supplies. If this were such a make or break issue between the US and Pakistan, or Pakistan were under any amount of pressure on this issue, I don't think the US would continue to sweeten the relationship with additional billions. I also think that people within the US establishment have a pretty good memory and they know that most of these "terrorists" were jointly trained with the CIA and the bases, including Afghanistan's famous Tora Bora, were built with CIA assistance. You can express public disappointment or outrage, but it's always hollow when you know you had your fingers in the cookie jar too.

The second statement is the more humorous one. I think Najam Sethi did an excellent job of explaining exactly how meaningless this SC business is in his recent talk show (posted here). The US is welcoming India to a forum which they don't exclusively control entry to!! And India is thrilled just with a mere statement. Kya baat hai! I think the Chinese underscored this very well by issuing a statement the next day describing the conditions under which India could enter the SC: Structural UN reforms. And even then, the Chinese hold a veto on entry as well as reform itself! As I've pointed out previously, under the umbrella of UN reform there has been talk of an OIC seat, an Arab seat (Arab League?), multiple EU seats, Germany, Japan seats and more. This is going to be a very tough issue to address, if it *ever* gets addressed. Obama's statement doesn't do anything to make the actual process any easier or any more rapid (i.e. the process of structural reforms), nor does it create an alternate path of entry for India. So what exactly has he given other than a meaningless statement?

Didn't I hear Indians dismissing similar US statements in the past, such as "Pakistan is our major non-NATO ally" and much else... I tend to believe that words are cheap and the only way to gauge someone's position is to watch their actions. $7.5B in Kerry-Lugar, Bl52 deliveries or $2B in additional weapons means far more than a bumper sticker reading "most major ally". India is free to enthuse itself with statements, but at some point it will become clear that both these statements highlighted above were just that. The US is going to do nothing new or different, in terms of actual actions, to enable India's desires on either of these two items. In the meanwhile, the only action that counts for the US is how many billions India will spend with US companies. Let's see how good of a salesman Obama was...

 

[SMC]

Yeah, the points about Pakistan not acting fast enough on terrorists or terrorist safe havens are intolerable as especially laughable. I mean these things have been said probably a million times now and it's to the point where no one even cares much about it when they are said. I was actually laughing really hard when I heard these two, because they are pretty much no-meaning statements and I got a feeling that Indians are more disappointed than happy at those meaningless statements. Certainly I expected him to mention Pakistan at least once, but this weak a statement? I had to laugh.

 

[Kunwar]

Yeah, the points about Pakistan not acting fast enough on terrorists or terrorist safe havens are intolerable as especially laughable. I mean these things have been said probably a million times now and it's to the point where no one even cares much about it when they are said. I was actually laughing really hard when I heard these two, because they are pretty much no-meaning statements and I got a feeling that Indians are more disappointed than happy at those meaningless statements. Certainly I expected him to mention Pakistan at least once, but this weak a statement? I had to laugh.

No one cares anymore because everyone knows already..

 

[indushek]

Btw, this is really funny. These are the same bharatis questioning the credibility of Dawn who put Dawn on a pedestal when it posts articles from journalists who say things that they want to hear. Goodness me.

So here's a new standard of checking credibility of Dawn.

If it posts something in favour of India or anti-Pakistan, then its very credible.

If it posts something not in favour of India, it's not credible.

The same goes with TOI my friend, both of us ridicule TOI but how many times is it that Pakistan's have quoted it to prove some point, even rediff is used when these tabloids write something against India.

So please understand nobody is washed in milk here.

---------- Post added at 10:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 AM ----------

If the paragraph is wrong then show how it is wrong. What my problem is with bharatis selectively choosing Dawn to be credible and not credible.

You answer my question about TOI and Rediff then i will answer yours.

 

[twoplustwoisfour]

As for those who have missed the rather clear point of the article, it is simply this; that the role of the Indian Army has been quite dubious - due to corruption, a burning desire to appear heroic (ala Siachen fake encounters) and general malice towards Pakistanis & Kashmiris - and that this fact is not/should not be lost upon the US establishment.

Thank you for explaining the point of the article to me. I was one of those who could not grasp where exactly this rant by the author was headed. Thanx for clearing that out. But you have to admit, the author never tried to make his point clear.

The article starts out with the following:

ON the face of it, the Adarsh housing society scam in Mumbai does not look very different from dozens of similar scandals spawned by Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s dream to make India rich with a nearly vertical take-off. A nation that pawned its gold reserves to avert default just 20 years ago was being wooed at the weekend by President Barack Obama to help save the American economy.

Which exactly was the point of Obama's visit. To get some trade and investments going to revive the American economy. Because, believe it or not, that's what concerns him the most. His job depends on American jobs.

Regarding the rest of the rant by the author, the US will do whatever suits them. They don't care how many die in Kashmir and who kills them. They don't care how much corruption is there in some other country's military as long as it doesn't affect them.

What the US cares about is themselves. Just like Pakistanis. Just like Indians. Just like everyone. So please stop imposing bullshit moralistic values on others. Thank You.

Edit: BTW the link to Najam Sethi's talk show is not working in your post. You might want to edit that.

 

[karan.1970]

You are welcome to question anything you like, but I haven't seen an Indian paper half as credible or half as moderate as DAWN.

You havent looked in the right places it seems..

Also, attacking DAWN doesn't change the reality of the events alluded to in the article. These are facts and they have indeed happened. From the staged encounters with Pakistani troops in Siachen, to the real estate scandal and more.

As for those who have missed the rather clear point of the article, it is simply this; that the role of the Indian Army has been quite dubious - due to corruption, a burning desire to appear heroic (ala Siachen fake encounters) and general malice towards Pakistanis & Kashmiris - and that this fact is not/should not be lost upon the US establishment. He further explains that, ignoring the meaningless lollipop handouts, Reidel/Obama's true views on the issue of Kashmir are indeed that it *is* a dispute, and it must be settled. To this end, the US is engaging both China (initially, very publicly) and Pakistan while delivering the message to India that the solution to the region's problems does not lie in undermining Pakistan.

Unlike in Pakistan where despite being a democracy, the shots are called by the military, in India, state visits such as this have little role for army. Hence the thought of Indian army's role getting lost upon the US establishment is out of context here. Also, in sermonizing, its all about moral standing of the one delivering the sermon. So a while a newspaper talking about corruption in Indian army based on some uniformed individuals indulging in corrupt practises is fine. But when that talk is coming from a newspaper of a country where the army has been known to scam the whole country into dictatorship for 50% of its existence, it becomes a little hypocritical.

About Obama's true views on Pakistan, well, I dont know those since unlike the author I am not privvy to them , but the only statements he made about Pakistan were about presnce of terrorist safe havens within Pakistan and how they cant be tolerated and how an unstable Pakistan is bad for the world and India. I dont know about you, but if some one talks about my country as a possible unstable and failed state, I would consider that undermining

If all of this is done under the cover of two statements which, upon even superficial analysis, are completely meaningless, then so be it. The two statements which are being sung as an endless thumree in India are:

1) Terrorist havens inside Pakistan are unacceptable
2) US welcomes India as it prepares to join the Sec Council as a perm member

If anyone thinks that statement #1 is being made for the first time, or that it hasn't been discussed extensively between the US and Pakistan for the past 9 years, then their name is probably Rip Van Winkle and they just woke up after decades of slumber. Without going into the details, the net-net is that there has been constant give and take on this issue and where we've ended up most recently is that the US has announced an additional $2B of military supplies. If this were such a make or break issue between the US and Pakistan, or Pakistan were under any amount of pressure on this issue, I don't think the US would continue to sweeten the relationship with additional billions. I also think that people within the US establishment have a pretty good memory and they know that most of these "terrorists" were jointly trained with the CIA and the bases, including Afghanistan's famous Tora Bora, were built with CIA assistance. You can express public disappointment or outrage, but it's always hollow when you know you had your fingers in the cookie jar too.

I am really not too interested in the list of crimes in which USA has been Pakistan's partner in the past. However, its pretty sad that your country has been called a safe haven of terrorism so often by the world, that the phrase has stopped having any impact. Getting aid to remove terrorists from within your borders must look like a deal sweetner to you, but from where I stand the resulting situation despite billions of dollars of aid in last decade is not good at all.

The second statement is the more humorous one. I think Najam Sethi did an excellent job of explaining exactly how meaningless this SC business is in his recent talk show (posted here). The US is welcoming India to a forum which they don't exclusively control entry to!! And India is thrilled just with a mere statement. Kya baat hai! I think the Chinese underscored this very well by issuing a statement the next day describing the conditions under which India could enter the SC: Structural UN reforms. And even then, the Chinese hold a veto on entry as well as reform itself! As I've pointed out previously, under the umbrella of UN reform there has been talk of an OIC seat, an Arab seat (Arab League?), multiple EU seats, Germany, Japan seats and more. This is going to be a very tough issue to address, if it *ever* gets addressed. Obama's statement doesn't do anything to make the actual process any easier or any more rapid (i.e. the process of structural reforms), nor does it create an alternate path of entry for India. So what exactly has he given other than a meaningless statement?

There were similar doubts and ridiculing comments that were made prior to the Nuclear deal. We all know how that ended up. I agree that UNSC is not solely an American stake, but then from India's point of view, now its 4 down, 1 to go. Better than 3 down 2 to go.. Dont you think??

Didn't I hear Indians dismissing similar US statements in the past, such as "Pakistan is our major non-NATO ally" and much else... I tend to believe that words are cheap and the only way to gauge someone's position is to watch their actions. $7.5B in Kerry-Lugar, Bl52 deliveries or $2B in additional weapons means far more than a bumper sticker reading "most major ally". India is free to enthuse itself with statements, but at some point it will become clear that both these statements highlighted above were just that. The US is going to do nothing new or different, in terms of actual actions, to enable India's desires on either of these two items. In the meanwhile, the only action that counts for the US is how many billions India will spend with US companies. Let's see how good of a salesman Obama was...

I dont know how it works in Pakistan, but for India, I am pretty thrilled that the president of the strongest country in the world travels to India to sell its wares. Speaks a bit about the growing economic might of India.

Anyway, any country i know of will prefer the president of America coming in to sell American products instead of sending in his generals to ask it to do more about removing terrorist havens from its borders.

 

[karan.1970]

Yeah, the points about Pakistan not acting fast enough on terrorists or terrorist safe havens are intolerable as especially laughable. I mean these things have been said probably a million times now and it's to the point where no one even cares much about it when they are said. I was actually laughing really hard when I heard these two, because they are pretty much no-meaning statements and I got a feeling that Indians are more disappointed than happy at those meaningless statements. Certainly I expected him to mention Pakistan at least once, but this weak a statement? I had to laugh.

Think about it in isolation and not wearing a nationalistic hat. Its not only demeaning but also sad that being called a terrorist haven doesnt mean anything to Pakistan.

Whats sadder is that Pakistanis consider this a victory that the American president called Pakistan only a safe haven for terrorists and not something even worse..

 

[third eye]

jayron, he is published in the Dawn newspaper, just like Kuldeep Nayyar and numerous other Indian authors. He is not a Dawn employee.

Surely he must be getting paid for his labors. If so it would be prudent to assume he'd write what likes to be read.

Besides the initial part the rest of the article is the usual ramble .

Actually the IA should also have an equivalent of the Pak Fauji Foundation so that the energies get channelized in an organised manner and such sporadic acts of corruption gets eliminated.

 

[luckyyy]

i think indian members should give a skip to such threads.....

 

[LaBong]

You are welcome to question anything you like, but I haven't seen an Indian paper half as credible or half as moderate as DAWN.

Hindu, Telegraph, Indian Express to name a few.

 

[Kompromat]

I was listening to an Indian commentator who was speaking at BBC while the Obama was addressing Indian Lok sabha and Rajiya sabha.

He bluntly said that the visit has a sole purpose of the containment of China both Economically and Militarily as well as Pakistan which he described as the Number one Enemy must be kept to its limits. He also said that we have a secret agenda that we would not hear in the press conference.

We all should know why obama didn't visit Pakistan - in my mind its because he wanted to reap some lucrative business out of India which would not have been possible when attached to an Islamabad visit.

 

[RobbieS]

Jawed Naqvi earns his bread and butter criticizing India for the rupees of his employers and the amusement of his audience. He must have written hundreds of weekly columns for Dawn, but he hasn't written one that shows anything positive about the country. How can that be? Does he find nothing positive in India?

I have had numerous e-mail exchanges with him. The last one went something like this -
Me: Do you have nothing to write except a general negativity towards India? Your article on capitalism and political favoritism ruining Indian journalism reeks of double talk since your articles toe a prescribed line that will sell to your employers across the border. You are guilty of committing the same crime that you accuse the Indian media.
JN: (Obviously exasperated by my criticism of his exemplary efforts)Tell me what to write. Give me points-wise this things that you'd have me write about.
Me: Write about how good governance can bring about change. Write about Bihar's stunning growth story. How markets and roads are open till late in the night in a place where even the cops feared to leave their police station after dusk.
Write about communal harmony. Write about Malerkotla in Punjab which has a 60% muslim majority conclave situated amongst Sikh and Hindu areas but hasn't witnessed a single riot. Not even in 1947. Write about Ayodhya. Write about the Muslim flower sellers and artisans who sell their crafts to Hindu pilgrims praying at a disputed and demolished site.

I am yet to receive a reply from Mr. Naqvi.

 

[sob]

RobbieS,

You will not receive any reply from his side. It obviously does not conform to his ideas about the country. He cannot be seen to agree to you and then write the contrary in his articles.