NYT: Caught Between Indian and Chinese Troops, at 15,000 Feet

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I find your line of argument problematic. While NYT does have a black eye with the Iraq/WMD fiasco, does that discredit every piece of journalism that comes out from there?

Surely, as you may know, journalists have their own sources. Some sources are better than others.

In this particular case, the number 12 (killed) is an interesting piece of information that is dangled. What we need to determine is if this number deliberately (and maybe incorrectly) divulged, to further some agenda or just a plain statement of information.

The problem is not with the NYT as much as the sources it is relying on and the geo-political climate, not just because of the historical animosity and obsession of the US Establishment with China, but the more recent US-China tensions and the US focus on attacking China over the issues of the Hong Kong protests and Xinjiang, with little of the same criticism directed towards Indian atrocities in IoJK and communal violence elsewhere.

 

[mig25]

Reality says otherwise:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...are-km-india-ladakh-simmering-tensions-erupt/

https://thekashmirwalla.com/2020/05...square-kilometres-to-china-in-a-month-report/

https://eurasiantimes.com/china-has...f-indian-land-in-ladakh-arunachal-india-govt/

Didn't new york times also claim that Iraq had WMD that could destroy Europe in 30 mins?........

I really hope you read these articles before posting here? They all claim Indian sources and media that you claim are fake yourself. If you want to come across as a purist in your pursuit of posting only sources that you claim are trustable, you need to do your due diligence and read them. These sources are also fake since they quote Indian sources and Indian media.

 

[The BrOkEn HeArT]

You can always upload it anonymously on Youtube. People can then decide how authentic it is. You can also digitize your soldier's face to avoid identification.

No... I know my boundaries being an Indian and human being.

 

[xeuss]

The problem is not with the NYT as much as the sources it is relying on and the geo-political climate, not just because of the historical animosity and obsession of the US Establishment with China, but the more recent US-China tensions and the US focus on attacking China over the issues of the Hong Kong protests and Xinjiang, with little of the same criticism directed towards Indian atrocities in IoJK and communal violence elsewhere.

Agree with your points, but wanted to add that if you are hoping for "equivalency" in terms of coverage between Hong Kong and Kashmir, there are other factors at play beyond just geopolitical agendas, including, but not limited to, the general interest of its readership and economic impact of events in certain locations.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Agree with your points, but wanted to add that if you are hoping for "equivalency" in terms of coverage between Hong Kong and Kashmir, there are other factors at play beyond just geopolitical agendas, including, but not limited to, the general interest of its readership and economic impact of events in certain locations.

I agree, but 'readership interest' is arguably a result of decades of a particular narrative being pushed on the American people, not to mention the hangover of the 'Cold War' between the 'Godless Communists and the God Fearing West'.

Yes, the enemy was the Soviet Union then, but communism has made it easier for the US Establishment to pivot and draw new battle lines against China. The US pursuit of 'China containment' and wooing of India as part of that containment has meant double standards and hypocrisy when it comes to whitewashing India's own equally reprehensible crimes against not just the people of IoJK, but other non-Hindu minority groups in India.

You're not going to see 'increased readership interest' if the US government, Establishment and media continue to whitewash India's crimes and refuse to cover it.

Were people really interested in reading about Pakistan? It was US scapegoating of Pakistan and it's wooing of India as a strategic partner that resulted in all those media outlets carrying story after story of 'Pakistan is the reason the US is struggling in Afghanistan'. There was a concerted effort over years to malign Pakistan and paint it as the enemy.

 

[xeuss]

I agree, but 'readership interest' is arguably a result of decades of a particular narrative being pushed on the American people, not to mention the hangover of the 'Cold War' between the 'Godless Communists and the God Fearing West'.

Yes, the enemy was the Soviet Union then, but communism has made it easier for the US Establishment to pivot and draw new battle lines against China. The US pursuit of 'China containment' and wooing of India as part of that containment has meant double standards and hypocrisy when it comes to whitewashing India's own equally reprehensible crimes against not just the people of IoJK, but other non-Hindu minority groups in India.

You're not going to see 'increased readership interest' if the US government, Establishment and media continue to whitewash India's crimes and refuse to cover it.

Were people really interested in reading about Pakistan? It was US scapegoating of Pakistan and it's wooing of India as a strategic partner that resulted in all those media outlets carrying story after story of 'Pakistan is the reason the US is struggling in Afghanistan'. There was a concerted effort over years to malign Pakistan and paint it as the enemy.

Once again, agree with all your points. Would like to add though the recent coverage on India, both in the NYT and WP have not been very flattering of India. Most of it is the result of the doings of the Modi government and its fascist agenda. To the extent that people at work have been asking uncomfortable questions on India as they read up on the new Nazis of the world.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Once again, agree with all your points. Would like to add though the recent coverage on India, both in the NYT and WP have not been very flattering of India. Most of it is the result of the doings of the Modi government and its fascist agenda. To the extent that people at work have been asking uncomfortable questions on India as they read up on the new Nazis of the world.

I agree that there has been 'less than flattering' coverage of India recently, but it is still insignificant compared to the negative coverage China or even Pakistan get.

I also agree that the little critical coverage we have seen is because of Modi and his 'in your face' brand of communal hatred - imagine the outrage if Pakistan had a Prime Minister with similar policies as Modi.

 

[Flash_Ninja]

As an indiaI my deduction is
1. No pla were killed or seriously injured in the clash . The biggest proof is the pla returned the captured easily and safely. If you see your colleagues dead you won't take prisoners..
2. Some pla too likely died afterwards from their injuries as stones are available freely and even a cornered rat fight back, the Indian soldiers were also in their prime of youth.
3. There is no shame in having a higher number killed. The pla obviously planned to up the ante( because they could), while the IA is always under instruction not to escalate. Their only mistake ( commanders) would be to not anticipate this or take adequate precautions. They were surprised.

Its possible some of their soldiers were injured, but I find it hard to believe that any of them died.
Chinese soldiers are for one far better equipped to deal with terrain and injuries than the Indians are. Also, considering western media is able to embed themselves anywhere in China to get a story, if some coverup were taking place it would certainly have come out by now even through social media. Besides nothing is better for propaganda than a story about martyrs, so the ccp would certainly have published the info themeselves if it existed.

 

[IMARV]

Why is it a big deal to not release numbers.

We have few armed forces on record, that revealing casualty figure boost enemy morale. I subscribe to it or not is different question, but thats what few state feels.

Why does India have to make up numbers like 1000+ enemy casualties by one sikh? I think this repeated dishonesty cheapens India’s military history and puts to question if any Indian military achievements in history were exaggerated

Indians loves gossips, larger than life stories. And one knows where the exaggeration is coming from - its civilian bodies, off the records.

But what you call chinese aversion to any kind of openness and truth? A black-hole.

 

[Beefeatergin]

We have few armed forces on record, that revealing casualty figure boost enemy morale. I subscribe to it or not is different question, but thats what few state feels.



Indians loves gossips, larger than life stories. And one knows where the exaggeration is coming from - its civilian bodies, off the records.

But what you call chinese aversion to any kind of openness and truth? A black-hole.

That’s all fine and good, but there are Indian military sources claiming to kill 100 enemies single handedly. It makes it very hard to take your military achievements seriously when there’s a rampant amount of dishonesty, do you see American, British or Russians doing this?
Say what you want about China’s silence, but they’re not making up goofy circus stories.

 

[Sharma Ji]

I'm sure your concern for those who died has nothing to do with your efforts to show that Modi somehow won.

Couldn't be further from the truth.

Spent most of my childhood visiting close family who were in the military, cantonment to cantonment all over the country (during vacations of course)

I know people serving now too... have a bit of an idea of how that life is, who those guys are.

Nothing to do with Modi, think he did quite poorly here, but then.. nobody saw it coming. I happen to believe the Chinese were the aggressors, caught us by surprise, ambushed the soldiers and scurried back into their pits.

Shudder to think how bad it would have got under a PM Raul

What is with your biases.. some of you guys have scared yourselves into thinking being pro-India means getting in bed with the RSS or something..

If entire countries can diverge on some issues while converge and find common ground when it comes to certain other issues, then so can people. The Indian left today is so unabashedly anti-India, it's shameful.. and it's not going to help them politically.

Pulling the plug on national security was on their manifesto even, still didn't learn after the election hammering...and now they're doubling down on it lol. Lagey raho !

btw, just making a few broader points, not addressing you specifically about everything there, xeuss.

 

[IMARV]

That’s all fine and good, but there are Indian military sources claiming to kill 100 enemies single handedly. It makes it very hard to take your military achievements seriously when there’s a rampant amount of dishonesty, do you see American, British or Russians doing this?
Say what you want about China’s silence, but they’re not making up goofy circus stories.

How about you bring that source reference here and see how credible that is that people around the world start judging a whole nation based on that?

We are a nation who accepted our defeats openly, 1962 is one example, though it was more of an extended skirmish. We let our dead known, we let our drawbacks known. We endorse right to information and allow freedom of speech. Sometimes the same freedom results into such convoluted claims, but that's a very small cost we pay for the kind of life we want to live.

Its possible some of their soldiers were injured, but I find it hard to believe that any of them died.

No, even that can not be true. None of them got injured, none of them can ever.

 

[faithfulguy]

Its possible some of their soldiers were injured, but I find it hard to believe that any of them died.
Chinese soldiers are for one far better equipped to deal with terrain and injuries than the Indians are. Also, considering western media is able to embed themselves anywhere in China to get a story, if some coverup were taking place it would certainly have come out by now even through social media. Besides nothing is better for propaganda than a story about martyrs, so the ccp would certainly have published the info themeselves if it existed.

Chinese soldiers were armed with spiked clubs. Indians empty handed. The results were as lopsided as cowboys and Indians. With Indians getting massacred.

China won’t release their casualty report if its going to be interpreted as Chinese massacred the Indians. China will get western media backlash if that were the case. With more sanctions for massacre the Indians.

 

[terry5]

This OP's posts belong in the "involuntarily self-deprecating comedy" section of Netflix.

Ive got military sources that 40 Chinese died
You don’t know me or my links and I’ve been sworn to secrecy so can’t say no more but believe me exactly 40 pla died .

lol

Great movie
I loved the scene where dharmendra cradled hema malini in he’s arms at the end after he’s arms where chopped off by the Chinese

Music was good also as was action scenes it’s a must watch for everyone 140% true story
11/10

Actually I have a video of 16th June early morning . But I can't share because it has face of front line trooper in it who filmed it. Even one of the most reliable Indian journalist also has it. The video shows both sides fatalities in a very horrible conditions which is not appropriate to share it at any platform in respect of Army personals. And Indian Army personals are not allowed to share it with any one because already disengagment process is going on between both sides. And even PLA commander demanded in meeting not to share any evidence of clash of 15th June. And Indian commander accepted it to get peace proccess forward. And I can tell you, you can count 33 clear PLA fatalities in that video. Most of were injured badly, so I came on conclusion more than 40 in numbers.

D

 

[Flash_Ninja]

No, even that can not be true. None of them got injured, none of them can ever.

Is this the new reality Dear leader modi is now feeding you

Chinese soldiers were armed with spiked clubs. Indians empty handed. The results were as lopsided as cowboys and Indians. With Indians getting massacred.

China won’t release their casualty report if its going to be interpreted as Chinese massacred the Indians. China will get western media backlash if that were the case. With more sanctions for massacre the Indians.

Actually I dont think China cares about the optics of the situation, its obvious to anybody living in the West what the current narrative towards China is; if anything I think proving that the Indians are incapable of performing their function as the western bulletsponge would benefit China far more.

If I had to guess I'd say PLA confronted the IA, absolutely humiliated them and captured some but also sustained injuries on their side. Using the better equipment/infrastructure/training they were able to patch themeselves up though, while the Indians were left fumbling around and inevitably led to the deaths of a few dozen of their own. This would explain why the Indian claims about chinese casualties keeps increasing or decreasing every other day (as they interview more witnesses), but why no deaths have been confirmed in the PLA.