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Notify PAF Aircraft Crashes

Ex Aussie Mirages had already lived their life when we bought them….Aussies maintained and flew them well…so really cant blame them for anything.

I don’t want to disclose here that how many have crashed and how many were about to crash but were saved due to skillfull handling of our pilots. No doubt that PAF is giving these 40 year old planes the best maintenance support it can afford , but these aircraft are too old now to fly now and have lived their airframe/engine life. May be its time to get rid of them or else we will keep loosing precious lives.

it has nothing to do with the aussies. we brought these 40 mirages for the sole purpose of stripping them for spares but along the way the PAF decided to upgrade them and put them in service.
its just another un-fortunate accident.
 
Hopefully we can keep the accident rate to a minimum until we can induct JF-17s to replace these planes.
 
PAF Mirage aircraft crashes in central Punjab region
Gareth Jennings Jane's Aviation Reporter
London

A Pakistan Air Force (PAF) Dassault Mirage combat aircraft crashed in the central Punjab region of the country on 15 February.

The aircraft came down approximately 200 km south of the capital, Islamabad, not far from the PAF academy and air base at Sargodha.

According to local media reports, the pilot was killed in the accident and the air force is investigating the cause of the crash.

The PAF is the largest user of the Mirage after France, with several variants of the aircraft in service. It is not known which variant was involved in this incident, but the PAF currently operates approximately 37 Mirage IIIO, 30 Mirage 5F, 22 Mirage 5PA, 10 Mirage 5PA3, 10 Mirage IIIRP, nine Mirage IIIEL and two Mirage IIIEP aircraft.
total 120 a/c in service.

The earliest model of Mirage aircraft has been in PAF service since 1967.
 
this crash has happened despite the following available...

Pakistan signs for aircraft monitoring deal

Damian Kemp JDW Aviation Editor - London

Australian companies Structural Monitoring Systems (SMS) and Aerostructures have won a A$830,000 (US$632,000) contract from the Pakistan Air Force to design an airframe monitoring system for the force's Chengdu FT-5 jet trainer, Dassault Aviation Mirage III fighter and Lockheed Martin C-130 transport aircraft.

The system will be based on SMS's comparative vacuum monitoring (CVM) technology. CVM involves the placing of thin sensor pads with ultrafine vacuum galleries over flat surfaces, joints or fatigue hotspots on aircraft, including inside wing spars or fuel tanks, for occasional or continual monitoring.

SMS Chief Executive Officer Mark Vellacott said the pads are capable of detecting cracks 20,000ths of an inch wide.

The key to the technology is its ability to substantially reduce aircraft downtime, in the case of CH-53 Sea Stallion medium lift helicopters a reduction from four hours to five minutes for the structural test required every 25 flight hours, according to the company.

Included in the Pakistan Air Force contract is a proposal to equip the country's Defence Aeronautical Research Centre (DARC) with laboratory testing systems. Vellacott said the contract was only stage one and would lead to recommendations for CVM technology to be installed on aircraft and for the company to assist DARC to develop its structural testing capability as part of a larger stage two programme planned for late 2005.

"This contract is to provide a full range of structural integrity analysis, monitoring and testing services for the fleet and is another milestone in the commercialisation of CVM technology," said Vellacott.

"This is a major step forward for the company."

The company began an evaluation in March of CVM technology on three Australian Army Black Hawks under an A$125,000 contract that could eventually extend across the whole fleet.
 
Australian companies Structural Monitoring Systems (SMS) and Aerostructures have won a A$830,000 (US$632,000) contract from the Pakistan Air Force to design an airframe monitoring system for the force's Chengdu FT-5 jet trainer, Dassault Aviation Mirage III fighter and Lockheed Martin C-130 transport aircraft.

I donot understand that why PAF is investing this money over the structure monitoring of aircraft. As this whole thread indicates, three main causes of aircraft crashes emerge as follows:
1. Engine failure (which leads to failure of Generators, Hydraulic system for flight controls etc).

2. Pilot Factor (G-LOC,SD, other error)

3. External Factors(bird hit, boar hit)

I dont think, that structure failure or structure disintegration has been the major cause of crashes. It is understood, that aircraft airframe has stipulated life in terms of flying hours and calender life (interms of years), after which major SEI (Structure Evaluation Inspection) is carried. However, over the time, fatigue accumulation is more important in helicopters then airplanes. Helicopters are subjected to various types of vibrations (low, medium and high frequency), as a lot of components are rotating. So If this system is used as a Diagnostic measure for Blackhawks, its OK. THe investmenst is worth it.

But i dont think, that fatigue monitoring of airplane structure is important. The engine is the single most important component of the aircraft. PAF should try to improve/develop systems to monitor more closely various engine parameters, or employ FADEC engines in aircraft.

In Helicopters, if engine fails, it can still land by a skilled pilot. but, in fighter aircraft, if engine fails, and donot relite, fighters cannot glide due to inherent instability.
 
Like on of our members said" As long there are planes flying in Air there will be Crashes" God Bless His Soul.
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Gp Capt Ejaz is the Investigating officer I will stay in-touch with him and let you guys know the out come.
 
Hi Blackwater,

The structural integrity of a plane is one of the most important factor in keeping the plane safe and air worthy. Case in point the F 15 eagle.

My personal observation is that no air force will admit a structural failure of its air craft unless neccessary---other factors and other reasons would be given for the crash---structural failures means that the batch may have been compromised at time of inception eg F 15---or has crossed the threshold of safe flying---it is getting old (air force personal can correct me if I am wrong ).

The mirage---it has given 40 years of its life to PAF and the end is still not in sight. I believe that PAF is 5 to 7 years behind in the acquisition of replacement aircraft for the Mirage. I believe that PAF took a gamble in deciding which way to go---in the end it would barely make it through with just the skin between its teeth---if it ever would.
 
MastanKhan,

If you want to blame anybody of the PAF's plans of inductions. Then blame America and Zardari.
 
Webby,

It is not a blame. It is a frame of mind---that is what I am talking about---you see once the sanctions came off---PAF was not prepared to make the purchase right away---. Basically what I am saying is that the PAF was caught not ready---they were not prepared that one day sanctions would come off and they would need to sign on the dotted line. For that, they had to have a projection date set up----if sanctions came off at this time, then this is the aircraft we are going to buy

Accordingly, they waited till the sanctions came off and then they started looking and they looked and they looked---30 year old fighter aircraft frames were being re-furbished and we made ourselves believe that we have a reliable platform---and we may very well be right about it, but then it is stretching it very thin---extremely thin. Fighter aircraft frames are unlike bomber aircraft frames---where bombers can be made to fly and be refurbished way beyond their normal life, the fighters aircraft maynot be.

The JF 17 may prove to be a wondeful all purpose, multidimensional aircraft in the coming years---but the deficiency we have today, haunts some of us now.
 
its just another un-fortunate accident.

Very easily and comfortably said...ask Wg Cdr Azhars wife, kids and parents...do they also think same ???

Especially in Aviation world, accidents don’t just happen….they have a long tail , a history and a chain of errors / omissions that lead to accident , and before an aircraft or its component finally breaks up in the air, it had already given one thousand indicators that its going to break….Sometimes,those indicators are either overlooked or purposely ignored because somebody thinks that nothing will happen or wants to project that all is well and when some accidents happen, they come up with lines, Just another un-fortunate accident or Allah ki yehi marzi thi…how lame..

Accept it. We are not a safety conscious Nation. In 95% of the cases, we don’t like to wear seat belts while driving, while constructing new building we don’t have any fire exit plans, have you ever seen the webs of electric wiring even in few modern localities, we like to hang on the door or sit on the roof of the bus instead of waiting for the next one, we work with electric equipment without taking safety precautions etc etc..I can go on and on…..Same people are in our armed forces with same frame of mind. Although, strict checks and inspection schedules are followed but still people do tend to lax unconsciously because by nature we don’t care about safety.

We have a reactive approach to safety instead of preventive. We only act when something has happened and do nothing to prevent it beforehand. In mid 80s, Base authorities at Sargodha were screaming that animal incursions on runways/taxi tracks is on rise and nobody gave a F**K about that until we lost an F-16B that was hit by a wild boar and then the emergency measures were taken to stop animal incursions and since then we did not have any accident due to this reason. Do you know that how many A-5 pilots lost their lives when it was finally decided to install Martin Baker. Or how many pilots were killed, when finally someone decided to phase out F-86s. And do you know that in last 10 Mirage crashes, 05 were ex-Aussies and to put the record straight, do you know that the last three Mirage crashes were from the same base and from the same squadron? In last six months, Wing Commander Faisal Mumtaz ejected after engine failure and is still unfit due to injuries after ejection, Wg Cdr Akram Ranjha died after engine fire and now Wing Commander Azhar is dead because the engine seized to work….three very senior and experienced officers gone within few months….all in Mirage….all due to Engine problems……and do you still think that its just another unfortunate accident...:hitwall:

I have no clue that how many more pilots we have to loose before somebody realises that something is wrong somewhere. We need to be preventive than reactive and hope that sanity prevails,otherwise its not far that very soon we will have another Mirage making a hole in ground with pilot still strapped to seat. :tsk:
 
Same people are in our armed forces with same frame of mind. Although, strict checks and inspection schedules are followed but still people do tend to lax unconsciously because by nature we don’t care about safety.

Sir, does this means, that our aircrfat maintenance personnel are inefficient, and careless, and show slack attitude over the aircarft. This means that, either they are not trained properly, as flight safety culture is not injected /emphasized. Or the supervisors and administrators are relaxed, careless, which donot ensure quality work and flight safety over the aircrew.

We have a reactive approach to safety instead of preventive. We only act when something has happened and do nothing to prevent it beforehand.

Highly deplorable and unprofessional!!


And do you know that in last 10 Mirage crashes, 05 were ex-Aussies and to put the record straight, do you know that the last three Mirage crashes were from the same base and from the same squadron?

I am sure that senior engineering officer of the squadron must be having a tough time from Accident Investigation Board.

three very senior and experienced officers gone within few months….all in Mirage….all due to Engine problems ?

Again it supports my earlier post. If PAF want to do something, try install diagnostic/monitoring equipment over engines first, then structure, as structure itself is more reliable then engine. By the way, are these engines overhauled by Mirage Rebuild Factory (Ataar 09 Engine shop)??

If 3 Mirages are crashed from the same squadron/base, I think concerned authorities must immediately look into the possibility of placing a quarintine over the maintenance wing of the base, as there may be a serious problem with maintenance practices.
 
Sir, does this means, that our aircrfat maintenance personnel are inefficient, and careless, and show slack attitude over the aircarft. This means that, either they are not trained properly, as flight safety culture is not injected /emphasized. Or the supervisors and administrators are relaxed, careless, which donot ensure quality work and flight safety over the aircrew.

They are neither careless, nor inefficient, nor under trained. I am just talking about our general attitude as a nation towards safety. There is a lot of supervision and procedures made to ensure safety, but still unintentional or unconciously ,safety is overlooked.

They are very professional people and we cant pinpoint them for anything that goes wrong. When we say human error, it can be due to pilots lack of judgement, an Air Traffic Controllers wrong clearence at wrong moment, a maintenace crews fault in refulling an aircraft or simpli a truck driver entering the runway when an aircraft is on finals...there can be million type of human errors.
 
X_MAN,

I believe that you were right in your earlier assessment---safety is a frame of mind. You have to be right a 100 percent of the time everytime. There is no time and place for error. One is an accident, two is carelessness, three is totally inefficient---we are missing on the basics---there is an inherent problem somewhere that is not being found---three strikes and you are out.

I don't know what the PAF policy is but usaf would have grounded all the planes of the same make if the second crash was due to same problem except in case of accident related to airframe---that would have grounded all the birds right after the first crash---now if the the structure deficiency was found during routine check up---similiarly the planes would not be flying regardless of accident or no accident till the issue was resolved.

Three wing commanders lost in six months looks bad on any resume. What could have happened that two of them could not bail out---wing commanders are the senior most flyers of any air force---.
 
Ex Aussie Mirages had already lived their life when we bought them….Aussies maintained and flew them well…so really cant blame them for anything.

I don’t want to disclose here that how many have crashed and how many were about to crash but were saved due to skillfull handling of our pilots. No doubt that PAF is giving these 40 year old planes the best maintenance support it can afford , but these aircraft are too old now to fly now and have lived their airframe/engine life. May be its time to get rid of them or else we will keep loosing precious lives.

What a tragic backward journey. we were the second (non-US) Airforce to induct F-16 but instead of progressing further we found our selves demoted to F-6 and secondhand mirrages.
I beleive all this is due to the incompetency of our politicians who lead us to economic destruction.
I'm sure if PAF had resources they would have inducted Rafale instead of used mirages and perhaps many precious souls may have still among us.
 

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