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Not so secular India

. The maijority of you lot are coming on here and slagging off pakistan and trying to mitigate the fact that you are not secular as pakistanis so desperately would like to believe[/B]
there corrected for u.
Actually rational arguments have been made right from our constitutional framework to living examples and wat not,but again as i said u see wat u look for.
 
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They feel that its pathetic to work under a person of different faith and that is the real culprit here.

That's the first time I am hearing of such feeling. I don't doubt that there are people like that, but surely that's not the norm amongst Indian Muslims.

The primary reason disadvantaged minorities don't have jobs is because of a) discrimination and b) lack of education. And they don't have the education because a) less access to govt schools (Sachar) and b) belief that they won't get jobs anyway even if qualified. So it's a vicious cycle.
 
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Exactly so why do you come on to p-a-k-i-s-t-a-n-i forum. I dont care for what you think thats why im not on idf. Back on topic Indians are not only not secular they dont know what the word means. lol

:rofl::rofl: Frustration visible.
 
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I thought you didnt care what we said? Why is it that this threads still going without a single rational argument about india being secular. The maijority of you lot are coming on here and slagging off pakistan and trying to mitigate the fact that you are not secular but would like to be seen to be


I feel that you haven't bothered to read the posts given by me and some other guys just 2 pages ago!!! so, what i suggest is, GO READ MY POSTS,AND then come back and continue your trolling if u want to!!!

actually I'm getting fed up now... these guys don't bother to listen to reason, they just want to talk "bakwaas" and pick up fight.... I tried for 2 hours to try to reason out decently, and I could see that atleast 10 pakistani members were online reading those posts, but had no face to reply back. so they simply wait for that page to go, and then from next page onwards, again restart their flame wars!!!

Ok Mr premium member having 4800 posts, for ur benefit I'll re-post what I said earlier, because none of u has even bothered to reply back to it. U guys are so scared to face reality, eh!!!!

---------- Post added at 09:21 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:20 PM ----------

I couldn't agree more! In my childhood 25-30 years ago, there used to be riots almost every week in my hometown... and for last 15 years, I haven't even heard of one!!! one more funny incident I'll tell u guys,which I remember so VIVIDLY!! During India-Pakistan matches, if India used to win there used to be fireworks all across Patna except Sabzibagh, the Muslim majority area. and if pakistan used to win, it would surprise me to see whole patna quiet,and fireworks going on in full vigour in sabzibagh. I used to stay close to sabzibagh, so from my roof top, all these views were crystal clear... and I used to feel surprised as to why it happened, EVERYTIME!!!

fast forward to 1998 onwards, I haven't seen even one firework going on if pakistan wins.. and I'm sure this is not because of oppression or whatever.. because there have been no riots whatsoever as I told before... When india won this World cup, every guy was out of his house celebrating.. from SABZIBAGH to KADAMKUAN!!!!!

Moreover, laloo yadav, for all his corruption, was in favour of minorities.. and now we have nitish kumar for last 7 years, who just knows one word, development!!! and man, u need to see it to believe it!!! everyone talks about progress and development in my home-state nowadays... the funniest part is, the Hindu Taliban(!!!) BJP is a 50-50 partner in this govt, and even the Muslims voted for it!! otherwise how else could they win 90% SEATS !!!!!

and there goes all the talk about BJP govts killing minorities and snatching their fundamental rights....

GO THROUGH THIS POST

---------- Post added at 09:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 PM ----------

Ive been to UP mostly, lucknow, Agra.. and a small stopover in Dehli..
It was open, there was little communal problem.. except that you found no beef...Muslims bought from Muslims, and Hindus dealth with Hindus.. the newer generation seemed to be mixing it up.. but not that much.
There were still cases of me having to identify myself as a muslim at a chai stop near rae bareli so I could be given tea in the disposable cup...instead of the glass one(thank god I did not mention I was Pakistani)..
Saw some saffron wrapped jogi or whatever preaching dharmatma(or something to do with your asambhav..cant recall) in front of a mosque and I distinctly heard him get very upset at the mosque's fairly small speaker calling the Azaan.
I have relatives there, compared to them.. the side of the family that is in Pakistan is literally bathing in gold.
These people are very patriotic, they love India.. but do mumble it out about the time they needed to run away from a Hindu superiority gang that happened some time ago

I went in 2004..

As mentioned by Developero.. its not the secularism of most Indians in doubt..
its political motivations that keep that peace in a delicate balance.
Rapes, murders dont translate into the non-existence of secularism..
What does is when the state is being run by folks who believe in the superiority of a single religion over all others, and that religion's right to being the sole inheritor of the land.
- by SANTRO


AND MY REPLY WAS

Your post actually has confused me a lot!!! SERIOUSLY! will tell u why (wrt to each BOLD part):-

1. Beef is not allowed across India to preserve "communal harmony" ! and I stay in kerala, which is from some other planet!!! here everyone, I mean everyone, just eats BEEF!!! being a "normal" Hindu, I can't have beef or pork, and I can't find mutton here!!!! will tell u one more little secret, across India, 90% or may be more of all the butchers and meat-sellers are Muslims (which again I don't know why, but never bothered to question!!). so here u r surely wrong. (UP and Bihar are 98% similar in every way possible!!and my in-laws are based in UP, so I visit it a LOT to preserve "communal harmony" in my house!!!:no:)

2. Nowhere in India have I even seen someone being asked for religion before being given tea!! and believe me, I don't have the word "Hindu" inscribed on my forehead! So,if true, that must have been "one in a billion case". and What more, in my school days cricket team we had 4 muslims, and one pseudo-christian (this a$$ was a hindu, but wanted to become a christian!! God only knows why!!!:azn:)and we used to have ice-creams and tea together, visit each-other's homes during Eid and Holi PRIMARILY for the FOOD!!!!:P
(and I tell u, no hindu lady can make sewaiyan the way its made in Muslim households, I don't know how!!!!!;))

3. that saffron-clad jogi must have been one particular nut-case. and also, across the country, I find EACH and EVERY mosque transmitting Azaan through loudspeaker at such a high volume level that it irritates me!!! now now, before u declare me a RSS agent, the same loud noises used during Hindu festivals irritate me equally!!! and regarding ur post, NO MOSQUE in country plays it at a low volume. Here again, that day, their amplifier must have been under repair. and yet again I must tell u, people try to neglect this thing,because WE R NOT SUPPOSED TO INTERFERE IN ANYONE ELSE'S RELIGION!!! thats what happens across the country!

4. As regard to last part of your post--- U visited UTTAR PRADESH!!! The land where only Mulayam Singh yadav and Mayawati ahve ruled for last 15-16 years!! Mulayam will die but won't let even one Muslim being touched (not for any love, but because Muslims are his MAIN votebank!!! see his statements even today, Google it!).and Mayawati is the greatest supporter of Dalits and minorities in india. she has just one enemy-- UPPER CASTE HINDUS!!

now I will ask u again, are u sure u went to U.P. only????????
 
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First off id say India is quite far away from the secular state its founders wanted it to be....but the the fact is our aim\goal\intent is to become one!...its in the constitution !

'WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens:
JUSTICE, social, economic and political.
LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship.
EQUALITY of status and opportunity, and to promote among all;
FRATERNITY assuring the dignity of the individual and the unity of the Nation"
IN OUR CONSTITUENT ASSEMBLY this 26/11/1949, do HEREBY ADOPT,
ENACT AND GIVE TO OURSELVES THIS CONSTITUTION'.

Now this secularism doesn't come so easy .....just by putting words in costitution people dont start loving each other ....it takes generations of efforts to mould a secular society....especially in our case which involves 100s of years of violence...+ the existance of so many other religions doesn't make things easy.
The very fact that we have been able to stick together and grow together demostrates that we have done a good job at it ...a job which was difficult to begin with!.
I am gonna be honest enough to accept that, it will be blatent lying if i said there is absolute equality is the "society" I have witnessed cases when my muslims college m8s havent beeen able to get flats to live in because of their religion...heck even my mom has certain reservation regarding muslims.The sikh riots..Godhra riots(i live in ahmedabad ..they happened in front of me) are all blots on the image of my country.
But then its it all that is to be looked at when u judge my country ??.....why not look at the fact that this counrty has grown only stronger over time...why not look at all the muslims,sikhs and christians who have held highly esteemed goverment posts,why not look at all the people who have been lifted out of poverty irrespective of religion cast creed...most importantly why not look at "OUR INTENT TO BE A SECULAR SOCIETY".
I will tell u why my counrty has stuck together ...it has stuck together beacuse my text books taught me "Hindu Muslim Sikh Isai bhai bhai",it taught me about human rights,it taught me tolerance..it showed me a vision of india which i wanna work towards.
This is all because my constitution says "all are equal"...because it says "eaquality is your right".
I myself am a contrast to my family ...when my mother says somthing abt muslims..i actually say "mom u need to grow up"and this change i believe is happening in the whole society.With education and time the society will only get more and more tolerent.
Yes there are extreemists...yes there will be incidents once in a while ...but i believe our resolve will take us to a more tolerent India.
 
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AND DEVELOPEREO, the dunniest thing is that u were online at that time, reading all this...and had nothing to reply back, so u kept shut!

now i request u to plz get back to topic which is about "INDIA'S SECULARISM",and read my posts, and then comment....
 
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The primary reason disadvantaged minorities don't have jobs is because of a) discrimination and b) lack of education. And they don't have the education because a) less access to govt schools (Sachar) and b) belief that they won't get jobs anyway even if qualified. So it's a vicious cycle.

maan....thr s no discrimination....all govt/public secctor jobs are got through open merit based entrance tests whose results r open tp be verified through rti...and as for the govt schools....anyone can get a seat....provided they r willing to send their child to school....

dont post canrds for de sake of argument.....
 
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First off id say India is quite far away from the secular state its founders wanted it to be....but the the fact is our aim\goal\intent is to become one!...its in the constitution !

'WE, THE PEOPLE OF INDIA, having solemnly resolved to constitute India into a SOVEREIGN SOCIALIST SECULAR DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC and to secure to all its citizens:

The word "socialist" was not put in there by the creators of the constitution, it was put in there later by the government of Indira Gandhi.
 
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The word "socialist" was not put in there by the creators of the constitution, it was put in there later by the government of Indira Gandhi.

both socialist and secular were put later by ig...if i am not wrong in the 42 nd amendment....
 
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Imagine how much perseverance it would take a Muslim boy to continue going to school if he is convinced -- by others' example -- that the decks are stacked against him and he will not get a fair shot at a job anyway. .

That is their problem..what they r convinced off...they should come out of their ghettos nd see for themselves...just not studying thinking you wont get anyway is stupid to say at the least.....those muslim families that sent their children to school are nr developed or are developing.....those that did not send thinking whatever comes to thier mind will remain stagnant....educate forthe sake of getting educated...not for job....

and robbing the merit of others just because they think something is a even more bigger crime.....
 
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Why India Is Not A Secular State

The world community has rightly regarded Pakistan and Bangladesh as examples of theocratic states practicing policies of harsh discrimination against Hindus and other minorities. Sri Lanka’s Singhala-centric policies have generated gross discrimination against its Tamil citizens. Beyond India’s South Asian neighbourhood, numerous Islamic states such as Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia follow unjust policies toward minorities of all kinds that are an affront to civilized values everywhere and at all times. India in contrast is seen as a shining example of a secular state.

With the Republic Day just gone by, it is time to ask: But is India really a secular state?

I do not think so.

Political secularism may be defined as the separation of religious activities from those of the state, customarily referred to as "the separation of church and state" in the west. Secularism in theory then would mean that religion and state cannot occupy the same space. The state in its governmental capacity does not promote any religion or religious group, nor does it intervene in religious affairs. It cannot even be involved in interpretation or "reform" of any religion much less favour one over any other. This model of secularism may be characterized as maximum separation between state and religion except on manifest grounds of morality, health, and public order. Theoretical formulation, interpretation, and implementation of secularism have varied in several countries. In Indian context, the votaries of Hindutva equate it with appeasement of minorities, thus "pseudo-secularism." Apologists of Indian secularism call it "religious equi-distance, not non-involvement," meaning that Indian state is neutral between religions and religious communities.

I demonstrate that in practice, Indian state actually privileges Hinduism over other religions and religious communities. The Indian state is in fact the defender of the dharma for the following five reasons.

1: Constitutional Discrimination

Article 25 (2) of the constitution calls for providing "social welfare and reform and throwing open of Hindu religious institutions of public character to all classes and sections of Hindus." India’s constitution does not define who or what is a Hindu, but it defines followers of Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism as Hindus for purposes of Hindu temple entry. Article 25 (2) (b) (Explanation II) states: "the reference to Hindus shall be construed as including a reference to persons professing the Sikh, Jaina or Buddhist religion…"

Isn’t this the concern of Brahmin establishment to allow or disallow whoever they deem fit to enter a temple? Why should a secular state be concerned with the social welfare of only one religion? The motive of the constitution writers was obvious: to prevent the conversion of Dalits to Christianity or Islam, to "reform" Hinduism to make it palatable to the former untouchables.

The Hindu Marriage Act of 1955 applies to

(a) any person who is a Hindu by religion in any of its forms and developments, including a Virashaiva, a Lingayat or follower of the Brahmo, Prarthana or Arya Samaj;

(b) to any person who is a Buddhist, Jain or Sikh by religion, and

(c) to any person domiciled in the territories who is not a Muslim, Christian, Parsi or Jew by religion.

In other words, legally there is no such thing as a Buddhist, Jain, or Sikh marriage, which is another attempt to deny other religions a distinctive identity and absorb them in the Hindu fold. The Office of the Registrar General that conducts the decennial census enumerates anyone who is not a Christian, Muslim or Parsi as Hindu, most particularly in tribal areas, in pursuance of a policy of Hindu by default to inflate the religious majority.

Article 290A of the Constitution, which was added in 1956, provides for Kerala state funds to be paid for the upkeep of Hindu temples and shrines in the territories of former princely state of Tranvancore. What state but a denominational one would spend government funds to promote a particular religion?

[As an aside, a forest has been destroyed in arguing for a uniform civil code as opposed to Muslim Personal Law and the issue of Haj subsidy. But perhaps I can save those issues for a full discussion at a different time]

2: Legislative Discrimination


Although freedom of religion is granted under the constitution’s Article 25 (1), a Congress government of Madhya Pradesh pioneered anti-conversion legislation during the heyday of Nehru in 1954. Since then as many as 7 state legislatures (Arunachal, Chhattisgarh, Gujarat, Himachal, Orissa, Rajasthan and Tripura) have passed laws severely restricting conversion from Hinduism to other religions while facilitating conversion to Hinduism.

In 1982, when a few hundred Dalits embraced Islam in Meenakshipuram, the central government took measures to curb conversions. No less than Indira Gandhi characterized conversions as a threat to national security.

Christian missions and churches have been under attack since decades, often with state complicity as demonstrated in August-September 2008 in Orissa and Karnataka.

Hundreds of mosques are in illegal possession nationwide including in New Delhi, where scores are occupied by the central government.

It was a Congress government that first locked up the Babari Mosque in 1949 by court order effectively converting it into a Hindu temple. What began under Nehru was successfully completed by Narasimha Rao in 1992 through the Mosque’s destruction under the very nose of army, paramilitary and police. It is ironic that the Indian state is ready to deploy army to flush out Sikh insurgents from Golden Temple and Muslim rebels from Charar-i Sharif, but not protect Babari Mosque from the Hindu mobs’ jack hammers.

The states of Gujarat and UP spent government funds to rebuild the Somanatha Temple around the same time when Babari Mosque was locked up. It was President Rajendra Prasad who inaugurated the rebuilt temple in 1951 amidst official fanfare.

3: Employment Discrimination


Article 16 (2) of the constitution prohibits discrimination in public employment on religious grounds. Yet there are numerous examples of outright discrimination. Per Presidential orders of 1950 and 1956 the beneficiaries of Scheduled Castes’ reservation can only be Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists but not Christians and Muslims. If an SC changes religion after obtaining employment or admission to school, he or she must forfeit job and withdraw from school as has happened in numerous instances. But if the SC reverts to Hinduism, he or she can resume his/her status as an SC as courts have ruled.

Discrimination in Army

Right after 1947, Kashmir’s predominantly Hindu army was absorbed in the national army; whereas Hyderabad’s largely Muslim army was disbanded, rendering nearly 20,000 jobless. The Indian army’s infantry regiments are still based on religion (Sikh regiments), or ethnicity (Gorkha) or caste (Rajput) or region (Garhwal) in which members of other faiths, ethnicities, and regions are barred.

While a bearded Sikh may become chief of the army staff as did Gen. J.J. Singh, a Muslim may not sport beard in any of the armed forces. Only Jhatka is served in army messes and langers forcing Muslims to become vegetarian. A Hanuman temple greets visitors upon entering virtually every cantonment in the nation, hinting non-Hindus that they don’t belong there. In their public addresses to the soldiers and officers, at least two army chiefs—Generals B.C. Joshi and Shankar Roy Chowdhury—have used references to Hindu scriptures to the exclusion of the Quran and the Bible.

4: Cultural Discrimination

There are numerous examples where Hindu culture is conflated with Indian culture. The ban on cow slaughter deprived thousands of butchers their livelihood even as it stole millions of poor their only source of inexpensive protein. Cow may be sacred to the upper castes, but not so to the Christians, Dalits, and Muslims. Food taboos of some higher castes do not end at beef. Beyond beef, eggs may not be sold publicly by court order as it offends some caste sensibilities. Nor can school children bring food of their choice if it offends Hindus.

Official functions of the government whether at the central or state levels often commence with Hindu ceremonies of lighting lamps, breaking coconuts, and recitation of slokas. There is no disapproval to the fact that functions of central and state ministries of education begin with Sarasvati vandana .

In September 1993, Air India took delivery of a Boeing 747 in Seattle, Washington where the Ramakrishna Mission performed a puja invoking Lord Ganesha. Ministers lay foundation stones of government buildings preceded by bhoomi puja ceremony as if the state belongs only to Hindus. In Vishakhapatnam, I witnessed a ship launch amid saffron-robed, ashen faced sadhus singing bhajans, a function nearly mistaken as a Hindu festival.

In a trip to the United States in 1984, AP Chief Minister N.T. Ramarao found nothing objectionable in spending government funds for distributing medallions with Sri Venkateshwara’s image among potential investors in his state.

A large stone image of a reclining Vishnu located at the entrance to the IGP’s headquarters in Bangalore is more fitting for a temple than a secular state’s police building. Almost every police thana in West Bengal has a Kali temple, none has a mosque in a state with nearly 30 percent Muslim population. Muslim police trainees in Andhra Pradesh,

School children in Gujarat, Maharashtra and numerous other states have been forced to perform Surya namaskar against their will. Government school texts in Hindi and regional languages assume all pupils to be Hindu as the contents are soaked with idioms, phrases, signs, symbols, and icons of Hinduism to the exclusion of material from other religions and cultures. Textbooks of history and social studies are replete with gross distortions of Indian history of all eras, ancient, medieval and modern, in which Muslims and Christians are invariably the villains, traitors and foreigners.

Until the advent of television in the 1980s, All India Radio was the main source of information and entertainment to middle classes. The government-controlled AIR began its programs with Vande Mataram, Mangala dhwani, Vandana, and Hindu lyrics. Rarely did AIR broadcast anything pertaining to Christian or Muslim cultures. Like the AIR, during its heyday, seldom does Door Darshan show any serials of Muslim or Christian character. When it broadcasted serials of historical or literary figures—Tipu Sultan, Ghalib—they were caricatured into modern stock characters stripped of their distinctive cultural identity.

5: Religious Pogroms


Finally no modern, secular democracy other than India experienced multiple, state-sponsored pogroms—that of Sikhs in 1984 and of Muslims in 2002. In both instances, the highest in the Executive branch of the government justified the pogroms: Rajiv Gandhi when his mother was murdered; and Narendra Modi when the train burned in Godhra.

For all these five reasons, India is not a secular state. It is in fact the defender of Hindu dharma.

www.outlookindia.com | Why India Is Not A Secular State

I think this should close the debate.......
 
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both socialist and secular were put later by ig...if i am not wrong in the 42 nd amendment....

Correct, the original looked like this & while not spelling out, was clear by the content that it was a secular state that they wanted.
Constitution_of_India.jpg
 
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AND DEVELOPEREO, the funniest thing is that u were online at that time, reading all this...and had nothing to reply back, so u kept shut!

now i request u to plz get back to topic which is about "INDIA'S SECULARISM",and read my posts, and then comment....

and I find that yet again, developereo has very conveniently taken leave when he couldn't reply back. and then he will come back after 2 hours and once again start a fight...

---------- Post added at 09:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:52 PM ----------

These words doesn't suits you....

and whom do they suit the best? plz tell me that also..... now that u have sat down here to give a final judgement...
 
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