What's new

No, Islam Isn’t Inherently Violent, And The Math Proves It!

If terrorism can be measured in numbers than the US tops them all with more than 2 million deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan alone.
Also the Western Christians will be counted as the biggest and most savage terrorists of all time , with more than 60 million deaths in Europe in WW! and WW2.
With this reputation, it is obvious that they feel guilty and want to project their guilt on inherently non-violent inclined Muslims...well, at least till they are provoked into it, with no other choice left !!!

The homicide rates shown in the opening post, say a whole lot about societies, there beliefs and the consequences. Those statistics are usually compiled by the UN and WHO organizations. So indeed the math proves it.
 
.
There are many Surahs of Quran which have been abrogated with newer ones.

In Surah 2:106:
None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?
All the last verses conform to the same standards. Even if abrogation worked the way you seem to believe it does, it wouldn't change the basic principles, at all.
If you want a detailed and in-depth explanation, here: Refuting lies about Islam: Abrogation in the Quran
It is general perception that Quran is timeless.
''Timeless'' is a very vague description. The lessons from it apply to all times. The commands don't. Big difference.

For example, God had Musa (Moses) split a sea to punish a tyrant (Pharoah). Does that mean we should all go around trying to split seas if we hear about tyrants or dictators? Of course not. However, the lesson remains: Tyranny is wrong and so wrong that God may punish Tyrants in severe ways.
Then why would the all-knowing, all-wise, creator and sustainer of the universe; the eternal, self-existent Allah, give such time-bound revelations?
Why would he give ''time-bound revelations''? For the simple reason that different situations have different appropriate responses. Read the third part of my post (#60 in this thread), which says:
conditions and circumstances: - Generally, in most situations in life (not just religious), the response to one situation is generally different than it would be for another situation. A similar principle applies here. Every command and every such verse has conditions attached to it. It never a blanket statement for all things for eternity. Now, in this chapter (At Tawbah), the circumstances are clearly defined:
''So long, as they are true to you, stand you true to them.'' [9:7]

And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease. [9:12]

Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time? [9:13]

So, it is clear: these verses only apply when they broke their treaties and attacked first.

Let me give you a simple example: A country's leader may order military action against an invading country. But if the dispute is on a smaller scale, he may negotiate with that same country. Does that mean he's contradicting and abrogating and whatnot himself? No, of course not. He's just taking action based on the circumstances.

Why is it so hard to understand that God does the same? He gave commands (that are documented in the Quran) based on the situation of his addressees (the people he was talking to). It's perfectly straightforward and simple.

Moreover, the benign Surahs quoted by most of the muslim scholars and pacifists were revealed during earlier times of Hazrat Muhammad, SAW when he was just starting his public life. As he got control over more and more lands, his revelations also got more and more stricter & virulent.
This facile argument has been thoroughly debunked multiple times.

The article I linked to earlier also deals with most of this argument.
Refuting lies about Islam: Abrogation in the Quran

When the situation called for it, the Muslims were peaceful, adapting means of negotiation and communication to solve problems. When the situation changed, and resolute action was required, they took resolute action. Read the verses you talk about, it is clear and obvious in them.

For example, look at these verses, which come right after the 'verse of the sword' (that is the name given to verse [9:5]):
''So long, as they are true to you, stand you true to them.'' [9:7]

And if they break their oaths after their treaty and defame your religion, then fight the leaders of disbelief, for indeed, there are no oaths [sacred] to them; [fight them that] they might cease. [9:12]

Would you not fight a people who broke their oaths and determined to expel the Messenger, and they had begun [the attack upon] you the first time?

Do you understand what I'm trying to say? Those verses, that command the Muslims to stand true to people who are true to them (in reference to treaties and oaths), are from Surah At-Tawbah, which was one of the last Chapters to be revealed. There is no way any of that could have been abrogated.

Please, stop repeating what you read on anti-Islam or extremist sites. The only ones you're helping by doing that are the Terrorists - the ones I'm trying to combat.
I request you to get out of the tunnel-vision and consider the simple logic I present.
 
.
Kafir does not equal non-Muslim. The word Kafir comes from 'Kufr', which literally means, covering and hiding something (i.e. the truth).
The label Kafir can only be applied to someone who has knowingly rejected the truth out of arrogance, examples being: Iblees (Satan, basically) and the kuffar of Makkah. Not every non-Muslim on Earth.

''If we want to be inline with the Qur’an in using the word Kafir, then we cannot call all the non-Muslims Kafir. We are only allowed to call those people Kafir who reject the truth out of arrogance. Since we do not know about the inner intentions and feelings of individuals, we are never in a position to make such judgement and to use the word Kafir for people at our time. The people that we definitely can call Kafir are those that the Qur’an addressed as Kafir. These were people who rejected the message of the messengers who were directly sent to them out of arrogance.''

For a proper, in-depth and detailed argument:
Kafir - Exploring Islam
Kufr in Arabic means rejecting the divine truth. The closest term to describe it will be atheism.
Covering and hiding the divine truth depict hypocrites which is also KUFR in the first general sense of non-belief in divine truth.
 
.
Kufr in Arabic means rejecting the divine truth. The closest term to describe it will be atheism.
I disagree. Today's Atheism is not Kufr. Simply because Atheists do not believe that religion is divine truth - thus, they don't directly reject divine truth itself, but they reject that what they're being told (by religion) is divine truth. There's an important difference.
They would be Kafir if and only if they accepted something to be the divine truth and then rejected it.

Anyways, regardless of that, we aren't supposed to judge who is Kafir and who is not - that is for God to decide.
 
.
@gambit

Is stupidity is your new claim of fame---what does qura'an have to do with the killings of afghans by the americans during their occupation.

You're the one who brought up the Afghan war in a thread about Islam even though the author of the article clearly stated that he's leaving the Afghan and Iraq war out of his data sample. If I were you I'd spend a couple of bucks on English lessons. Maybe it will help you with your reading comprehension.
 
.
I disagree. Today's Atheism is not Kufr. Simply because Atheists do not believe that religion is divine truth - thus, they don't directly reject divine truth itself, but they reject that what they're being told (by religion) is divine truth. There's an important difference.
They would be Kafir if and only if they accepted something to be the divine truth and then rejected it.

Anyways, regardless of that, we aren't supposed to judge who is Kafir and who is not - that is for God to decide.
We are discussing the true meaning of a word, not deciding anything!
Atheists reject the exixtence of GOD, and that is the divine truth, not religion per se.
The Kuffar of Mekkah have never accepted monotheism to be devine and then rejected it, they just never accepted it in the first place, that is why they were called Kuffar (plural of Kafir).
 
.
We are discussing the true meaning of a word, not deciding anything!
Atheists reject the exixtence of GOD, and that is the divine truth, not religion per se.
The Kuffar of Mekkah have never accepted monotheism to be devine and then rejected it, they just never accepted it in the first place, that is why they were called Kuffar (plural of Kafir).
They were called Kuffar because they found a Prophet (PBUH) among themselves yet refused to accept the message. @TankMan has tried to explain this point in several previous posts.

Please spend few minutes watching this video:

 
Last edited:
.
We are discussing the true meaning of a word, not deciding anything!
Absolutely, I never said we were deciding anything.
Atheists reject the exixtence of GOD, and that is the divine truth, not religion per se.
A valid point, but many of the atheists I know say they believe in 'some God' but don't agree with religions. Perhaps a better word for that is 'agnostic'.
The Kuffar of Mekkah have never accepted monotheism to be devine and then rejected it, they just never accepted it
The Quran would disagree with you.

''And when a Book from God came to them in confirmation of the predictions they had with them and before this they had been praying for victory against those who had rejected (their religion). Then when that came to them which they recognized, they rejected (Kafaru) it.'' [2:89] (The verse is in reference to a wide range of disbelievers, but the point I make here is clear)

There is a very detailed argument, with multiple references from the Quran itself, in the link below. Do have a look if you are interested
Kafir - Exploring Islam
 
.
They were called Kuffar because they found a Prophet (PBUH) among themselves yet refused to accept the message. @TankMan has tried to explain this point in several previous posts.
The message was the divine truth.
 
. .
You're the one who brought up the Afghan war in a thread about Islam even though the author of the article clearly stated that he's leaving the Afghan and Iraq war out of his data sample. If I were you I'd spend a couple of bucks on English lessons. Maybe it will help you with your reading comprehension.


30 days on this board and 116 posts to your name----tell me about reading comprehension.
 
.
Hello people I don't see a conclusion to this religious debate. And I am tired of reading all these arguments and contra-arguments without coming to an agreement. So let us agree to disagree and close this thread.

@Jungibaaz @waz @Oscar @Horus ,Gentlemen religious debates are against forum rules can you please review this thread and take appropriate action. Thanks in advance.
 
.
Hello people I don't see a conclusion to this religious debate. And I am tired of reading all these arguments and contra-arguments without coming to an agreement. So let us agree to disagree and close this thread.

@Jungibaaz @waz @Oscar @Horus ,Gentlemen religious debates are against forum rules can you please review this thread and take appropriate action. Thanks in advance.
I recognize that religious discussions are banned, and you are right about that, but over here religion is both directly influenced by and actively influencing politics and defense matters, so It is not completely irrelevant.

Secondly, it is important to counter the various and dangerous narratives being spread around. If this thread is closed, at the very least all the arguments should remain visible for anyone else who stumbles upon it so that they are not misled into something harmful by certain people's less than wise arguments.

I try my best to reach conclusions, but there will be disagreements in every topic doesn't matter what we try to do.
 
.
The Quran would disagree with you.

''And when a Book from God came to them in confirmation of the predictions they had with them and before this they had been praying for victory against those who had rejected (their religion). Then when that came to them which they recognized, they rejected (Kafaru) it.'' [2:89] (The verse is in reference to a wide range of disbelievers, but the point I make here is clear)

There is a very detailed argument, with multiple references from the Quran itself, in the link below. Do have a look if you are interested
Kafir - Exploring Islam

You say that the verse refers to a wide range of disbelievers, so why are you starting by the Koran will disagree with me. I do not want to make anyone feel bad or inferior in any way by telling him how deep I do understand Koran based on belief and mainly on science.
We are talking specifically about Ahl Mekkah who were polytheists to start with.They were so vehemently opposed to the idea of monotheism that they wanted to kill the prophet (PBUH) himself and his message, they have killed almost all his early Sahaba. Their Kufr was based on stubbornness in their belief as they said many times that they would not budge from what was told to them and their parents before them, it was based on pride based it self on ego, and on ignorance (of science), that is why Koran is the unique divine book containing the divine truth about the existence of GOD that can best be understood through science, who insists about instruction in science. Although the message is simple and clear to be grasped by average Joe, the insistence on following the path of science, meant that it had to be deeply understood, and for some good reasons...
I am Arabic brother, and well versed in my language. My father used to teach it from primary school to university PhD.
It is the toughest language to learn with its Nahw, Sarf, shakl and I'rab grammatical rules, and yet one of the most beautiful, rich and complete languages out there.

Koran says: "oua inna arsalnaho lakom arabian" (And we have sent it to you in Arabic (an Arab))
 
. .

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom