Nizam-i-adal approved

[Always Neutral]

Immunity ??????for what i thought they believe in Islamic shariah and they also call nizam adal....system of justice, where everyone would be provided justice. They why killers have immunity.....???????

Ice Cold
Sherdil
GB
RR

Any answers to the above ?

Regards

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan is a state which is supposed to model itself on Islamic principles and provide a secure, just and liberal environment to all citizens regardless of faith, creed and caste.

Now these principles are not Burqah or beard and we all know it.
The principles of Justice, equality etc. are actually the more prominent and distinguishing features of Islam and these play a part in the affairs of the state. These things are covered in the constitution so there is need to enforce the constitution.
This constitution needs to be backed by the people and not questioned and thrown out like a piece of trash which TNSM says we do!

Small things like rituals are not affairs of the state; whether i keep a beard or not is quite simply put....my personal choice.
How the Muslim men and women conduct themselves without clashing with the principles of Islam are their own business...

Within the sphere of the principles of Islam, i do not see anything wrong with Pakistani constitution and hence i shun the gangster approach adopted by TNSM and will not even mention TTP who to me are just a band of terrorists.
Yes, the law and order needs to be improved.
Justice needs to be provided to all.
These issues are genuine and merit thought, discussions, rallies if need be to make the state realize where it is lacking...No way does it merit a rebellion and to boot ....in the name of Islam.

The problem is how we protect Islam without siding with the guilty parties???

Roguish organizations like TNSM, Jamaat Islami,JUI etc are constantly supporting TTP by providing supporting statements and justifications.
These parties and organizations are sadly mostly funded by like minded individuals from middle east as well as many people in Pakistan.
They have a lot of support in money and in manpower.
TTP is the nefarious son of these organizations, which has manifested itself as the culmination of a desire to force one's political and ideological will upon the others...with extreme prejudice and without any care for others lives, properties, freedom and self respect.

Individuals of your capability and many other brilliant minds here on this forum are at a point where we ourselves are feeling that TTP has already done a major damage to the citizens, Pakistan and Islamic ideology but we always enter into an argument about how to tackle the ideology which is used by the likes of TTP.

That is the million dollar question...What steps to take in order to ensure that such an ideology does not take root in Pakistan ever again?

If the ordinary masses are not as educated as many of us here are on Islamic principles then should we give the religious organizations in our country the room to manipulate masses in the name of Islam?
How to address this issue?
Should we not deal with the Mullah and restructure the Madrassas etc so that there is no deliberate perversion of Islamic principles done by these organizations?

Whoever will do this will be labeled as infidel by all the religious parties, Mullahs, TNSM, TTP etc...this is known to us all who are aware of the mentality of these organizations and is reflected in all their statements to date!

This is the issue, how to reform the Mullah and their kind?

These organizations and individuals will never be talked into relinquishing their hold, sooner or later some force will need to be used to coerce them into submission and play a positive nation building role rather than undermining all efforts to have unity and cohesiveness in our ranks.
The force needs to be applied and i see no other alternative!

At the risk of being branded a closet Islamist by the usual suspects, I'd like to present an option for discussion that I discussed elsewhere a while back.

A large part of Pakistan's population remains illiterate, an if not technically illiterate, illiterate when it comes to their faith. Our government remains flawed when it comes to fulfilling its most basic responsibilities towards its citizenry.

With those government failures, fighting back against a deceptively simple and utopia vision sold by the extremists becomes exceptionally difficult. The extremists say that they will bring Shariah and provide justice and equality to all. The government says the same things about justice and prosperity, but has failed time and time again, and so is considered part of a broken and corrupt system by the people who listen to its promises with growing cynicism and disbelief.

We have succumbed under the force of arms in Swat, from a position of weakness. The Nizam-e-Adl, a piece of legislation that on its own is quite benign and equitable (if implemented with the originally envisioned systems, processes and checks and balances) may now be manipulated by the TNSM to adhere to its own views.

But coming back to the point of ensuring that we take the wind out of the sails of the extremists - should Pakistan consider implementing Shariah throughout the land?

This is not as far-fetched as it seems, our constitution already declares us an Islamic State, our laws in accordance with the Quran and Islam. So we are technically living under "shariah" in all but name.

From the preamble of the Pakistani constitution:

Whereas sovereignty over the entire Universe belongs to Almighty Allah alone, and the authority to be exercised by the people of Pakistan within the limits prescribed by Him is a sacred trust;

And whereas it is the will of the people of Pakistan to establish an order :-

Wherein the State shall exercise its powers and authority through the chosen representatives of the people;

Wherein the principles of democracy, freedom, equality, tolerance and social justice, as enunciated by Islam, shall be fully observed;

Wherein the Muslims shall be enabled to order their lives in the individual and collective spheres in accordance with the teachings and requirements of Islam as set out in the Holy Quran and Sunnah;

Wherein adequate provision shall be made for the minorities freely to profess and practise their religions and develop their cultures;

Wherein the territories now included in or in accession with Pakistan and such other territories as may hereafter be included in or accede to Pakistan shall form a Federation wherein the units will be autonomous with such boundaries and limitations on their powers and authority as may be prescribed;

Therein shall be guaranteed fundamental rights, including equality of status, of opportunity and before law, social, economic and political justice, and freedom of thought, expression, belief, faith, worship and association, subject to law and public morality;

Wherein adequate provision shall be made to safeguard the legitimate interests of minorities and backward and depressed classes;

Wherein the independence of the judiciary shall be fully secured;

Wherein the integrity of the territories of the Federation, its independence and all its rights, including its sovereign rights on land, sea and air, shall be safeguarded;

So that the people of Pakistan may prosper and attain their rightful and honoured place amongst the nations of the World and make their full contribution towards international peace and progress and happiness of humanity :

Now, therefore, we, the people of Pakistan,

Cognisant of our responsibility before Almighty Allah and men;

Cognisant of the sacrifices made by the people in the cause of Pakistan;

Faithful to the declaration made by the Founder of Pakistan, Quaid-i-Azam Mohammad Ali Jinnah, that Pakistan would be a democratic State based on Islamic principles of social justice;

Dedicated to the preservation of democracy achieved by the unremitting struggle of the people against oppression and tyranny;

Inspired by the resolve to protect our national and political unity and solidarity by creating an egalitarian society through a new order;

Do hereby, through our representatives in the National Assembly, adopt, enact and give to ourselves, this Constitution.

Preamble

We already have Shariah Courts, and a Shariah Bench in the Pakistani Supreme Court. The Council on Islamic Ideology serves to issue rulings on whether certain laws or systems are un-Islamic or not, which often are ignored by our largely feudal polity since they threaten their parochial interests and customs.

Why not institutionalize this while we have the upper hand? It will be 'Shariah', defined by progressive Islamic Scholars such as those in the CII, it might change the honorifics enjoyed by the ruling class, but if it can ensure continuity of democratic systems, elections and an endorsement of the principles highlighted in the preamble of the Constitution, then we take away any motivation and cause from extremists. The State can then authorize the CII or other such body to undertake reforms of the Madrassa's and mosques, and make it much harder for the vested interests running them to oppose such actions - they would be opposing a "shariah government" after all.

Pakistan existed under a dual system even before the NAR, perhaps it is time to reconcile the two, on our terms while we can.

Thoughts?

 

[All-Green]

Immunity ??????for what i thought they believe in Islamic shariah and they also call nizam adal....system of justice, where everyone would be provided justice. They why killers have immunity.....???????

A very valid question and as i have raised on previous posts...let us see how Taliban are dealt with as per Shariah
....and if they are exempt then it shall be the final call to wake up for Pakistanis...

 

[All-Green]

And i quote from the article

A spokesman for the Taliban said the militants would cooperate. If the law is quickly implemented, ‘the world will see how much peace and prosperity comes to this region,’ Muslim Khan said.

I shall have to salute the audacity of this lunatic who has ravaged a peaceful land into a firing range and now is saying that world will see how much peace and prosperity comes to this region...

I must say i feel like banging my head against the wall...

Let us all observe a moment of silence for the untimely and sad demise of reason and logic...

 

[Always Neutral]

A very valid question and as i have raised on previous posts...let us see how Taliban are dealt with as per Shariah
....and if they are exempt then it shall be the final call to wake up for Pakistanis...

But AG,

They have been granted immunity under the Swat Deal. End of matter. At the risk of being repetative I post it once more below.

Regards

DAWN.COM | + Pakistan | Swat deal gives Taliban immunity: Sufi

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Truth Seeker

Don't misunderstand - if indeed this an attempt to blackmail the world by holding a gun to one's own head - then it should be called - that will up the ante for those who have bet Pakistan in this gamble - it will be put up or shut up time -- in a much maligned post on another thread I has said that the best thing US can do for Pakistan is to do nothing - let them decide to live or die or as AM says, "adapt"

In such times US has too much on her plate, those who have bet Pakistan may be or not to up the ante - I say the ante needs to be even higher and may be then the US can call their bluff.

No more half hearted stuff, a civil war is what we have been threatened with and that's may be just what the doctor ordered to put this Jinn of Islamism back in it's bottle.

As I said in that thread - I am in support of Pakistan being left on its own to determine its destiny, but 'left alone' holds no meaning so long as the US and NATO remain in Afghanistan, since their presence significantly impacts the regional dynamics and influences events.

If Pakistan is left alone to determine its destiny, it must be done with a simultaneous military disengagement of the West from Afghanistan. The conditions for disengagement should be Nuke Safety and prevention of any Pakistani territory being used for terrorist attacks on the West.

Let the chips fall as they may then.

 

[HAIDER]

As I said in that thread - I am in support of Pakistan being left on its own to determine its destiny, but 'left alone' holds no meaning so long as the US and NATO remain in Afghanistan, since their presence significantly impacts the regional dynamics and influences events.

If Pakistan is left alone to determine its destiny, it must be done with a simultaneous military disengagement of the West from Afghanistan. The conditions for disengagement should be Nuke Safety and prevention of any Pakistani territory being used for terrorist attacks on the West.

Let the chips fall as they may then.

But whats guarantee this extremism won't further expand its venom in your society ???...they are further challenging the writ of govt.

 

[muse]

If Pakistan is left alone to determine its destiny, it must be done with a simultaneous military disengagement of the West from Afghanistan

Just when there might be some integrity to your thought, you come up with leave Pakistan alone -- but hey, also leave Afghanistan alone - you are undoubted master of the art of speaking from both orifices of your body.

You are in effect saying to the world that Pakista is the trouble maker in Afghanistan - since Pakistan did not invite the American into Afghanistan, it mioght be considered pushy, to now "demand" that It leave Afghanistan, in order to save Pakistan - you give credence to the idea that the Pakistani talib are but a show for the benefit of blackmailing the West.

Please don't use the forum to promote the Talib.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Just when there might be some integrity to your thought, you come up with leave Pakistan alone -- but hey, also leave Afghanistan alone - you are undoubted master of the art of speaking from both orifices of your body.

On the other thread you called another member an idiot - are you incapable of engaging in discourse without crass comments and personal attacks? It certainly seems so given your recent track record and despite repeated requests to refrain from such.

You are in effect saying to the world that Pakista is the trouble maker in Afghanistan - since Pakistan did not invite the American into Afghanistan, it mioght be considered pushy, to now "demand" that It leave Afghanistan, in order to save Pakistan - you give credence to the idea that the Pakistani talib are but a show for the benefit of blackmailing the West.

I am saying that the US invasion of Afghanistan was the catalyst for the rise of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Pakistan, and it continues to be the driving force behind the insurgency and a handy 'cause' for increasing recruitment numbers of AL Qaeda and other extremist organizations.

Events in Pakistan cannot be detached from Afghanistan, hence the suggestion of 'leave Pakistan alone' holds no meaning without a military disengagement of the West from Afghanistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

But whats guarantee this extremism won't further expand its venom in your society ???...they are further challenging the writ of govt.

I think that is the point of 'leaving alone' - Pakistani society and the government has to determine what to do on its own, without the complicating presence of the West in Afghanistan.

 

[TruthSeeker]

I am saying that the US invasion of Afghanistan was the catalyst for the rise of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Pakistan, and it continues to be the driving force behind the insurgency and a handy 'cause' for increasing recruitment numbers of AL Qaeda and other extremist organizations.

Events in Pakistan cannot be detached from Afghanistan, hence the suggestion of 'leave Pakistan alone' holds no meaning without a military disengagement of the West from Afghanistan.

So, the Afghans have no say? And besides, WE will not leave either Afghanistan OR Pakistan alone until we have killed al Qaeda. WE will leave Pakistan alone when gives up al Qaeda's leaders. We will leave Afghanistan alone, after that, when it asks us to leave.

 

[Rabbit.Rabbit]

I think that is the point of 'leaving alone' - Pakistani society and the government has to determine what to do on its own, without the complicating presence of the West in Afghanistan.

Well, isn't that cute! Why should Afghanistan have to suffer Pakistani meddling?
Its true that the situation in Afg. is adding fuel to the fire in Pak, but that's hardly an excuse for being unable to police your own borders.

Pakistan could go it alone, and possibly that would mean an end to US aid and drone attacks, but asking the US to move out of Afg' and leave everything in the hands of Pakistan is simply asking for more trouble.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So, the Afghans have no say? And besides, WE will not leave either Afghanistan OR Pakistan alone until we have killed al Qaeda. WE will leave Pakistan alone when gives up al Qaeda's leaders. We will leave Afghanistan alone, after that, when it asks us to leave.

Oh the Afghans do have a say, to fix their country themselves.

I am merely pointing out that the US presence in Afghanistan served as a catalyst for the rise of the Pakistani taliban, and continues to serve as a beacon for Al Qaeda and assorted extremists (much as what happened in Iraq).

Therefore this 'leave alone' argument just cannot work unless there is a complete disengagement from the region by the US. So long as the West remains in Afghanistan, it drives events and influences the dynamics in Pakistan, which means the West also bears some responsibility for what happens in Pakistan.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Therefore this 'leave alone' argument just cannot work unless there is a complete disengagement from the region by the US. So long as the West remains in Afghanistan, it drives events and influences the dynamics in Pakistan, which means the West also bears some responsibility for what happens in Pakistan.

All I can say to that is BULL SH*T!!!! Then you'll just have to suffer a western neighbor with BIG GUNS!!

 

[muse]

I am saying that the US invasion of Afghanistan was the catalyst for the rise of the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Pakistan, and it continues to be the driving force behind the insurgency and a handy 'cause' for increasing recruitment numbers of AL Qaeda and other extremist organizations

A line of thinking straight from AQ propaganda -- you can choose denial if you want just don't imagine any success peddling it around here. Afghan Talib were themselves products of Pakistani Madaress - if anything you have the relationship wrong - it was and is in Pakistan that the ideological motivation and justification were created, in Pakistan where Islamist terrorist training has been conducted - and now istead of correwcting these to be in concord with the spirit and the needs of our time and circumstance, you offer that we blackmail with them.

And you ask what's with me?