News for Mirage-2000 upgrade

[Jako]

But 40million for only upgrade(not a new one,remind you) is just too much!!!.....we can have a good 4th gen brand new fighter for that price

 

[paritosh]

I think it is very important that India goes ahead with this deal...for two reason..
a)the mirage is one of the most capable a/c with the IAF...and the pilots have mastered this plane....and the upgrade sounds pretty cool....ouiouioui...you sure about the AESA?
b)the recent move by the USA to block the nuclear sale at the G8 summit and the french supporting us by offering to go by the NSG waiver should be appreciated.We should return all the american reactors and deal with the french in the future as France and Russia are the two countries who are competing for the slice of the 160billion$ indian nuclear market without problems.

 

[notting hill]

Gabbar to answer your query why india might be interested in such an expensive upgradation.The answer could have three or more reasons.

One reason is that traditionally, mirage 2000 is known as a dream machine for the pilots who have flown it and therefore was the reason why IAF wanted to go for mirage dash 5 in MRCA. The ease of upgradation and familiarity with the aircraft goes a long way in convincing an air force to keep up with the aircraft in the same way pakistanis have done with their F-16s .

Over the years Mirage 2000 has been compared to F-16 for various defence purchases and in some aspects has been considered superior.The comparion to f-16 was made in the same way as was made with mig-29. There has always been a dogfight among these 3 awesome fighting machines. With JF-17 acquisition and F-16 upgradation in progress it makes sense for IAF to go in for upgradation and keep a dedicated strike force to keep a tab on pakistani acquisition.

The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s ECM system is touted as being able to jam the SA-10/SA-11/SA-15/SA-20 as well as the AIM-120 (we'll have to find out one day ). Even the ICMS Mk.II on the Mirage 2000-5 should be more then able to handle most Pakistan ground and most airbased radars. The Mirage 2000 (which india has currently) don't have the same ECM systems. If they shell out more money they could fit the IMEWS which offers a SEAD capability of sorts. If India throws out money the M-53 PX3 is around which boosts thrust by 15 percent, just needs some funding.

Pakistan could be put over the hump as it is rather doubtful they would ever be cleared for the JDAM, JASSM or any of the new "J" weapons. I could see them getting AIM-120s, GBUs, LDPs and such but nothing overly offensive like the AGM-88. I don't know if they would get cleared for the AIM-9X either. No idea on the ECM suite they will be cleared for either.

India would have a fleet numbers edge with their 45 Mirage 2000 and 126 F-18/RAFAEL/EUROFIGHTER. If all mirages are brought to the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 (173ish) model that would give them one of the most powerful M2K fleet around. Pakistan should get up to 60-70 (number being thrown around but could be less) F-16C/D Block 52s and still have the 28 F-16A/B B-15s (which couldbe brought up to MLU). That's a sizeable edge in the numbers. Those numbers give them an edge in deployment.

The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 costs a lot more and Pakistan will more then likely get their F-16s for free. Niether nation has the pilot market cornered. And the planes have differences that each side would try and exploit. But being the attcker would be both good and bad, good because they know when they are to attack and bad because some would more then likely have bombs. Granted with 5-6 MICA EM/IRs a Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 could quickly turn and engage the enemy. Fighting would be rather close.

Granted I could not see Indian pilots wanting to fly low due to the fact Pakistan lacks decent high alt SAMs but has scores of MANPADs. The bigger investment in guided weapons shows they do want to stay out of range of MANPADs and "trashfire". The HQ-2 (SA-2) would be easily jammed by the ICMS Mk.II

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

well mig29 said in his post that it is AESA,
i presume it will be RDY-3 to be best, somebody correct me on this, however any spec or info is welcome

 

[sancho]

well mig29 said in his post that it is AESA,
i presume it will be RDY-3 to be best, somebody correct me on this, however any spec or info is welcome

This confirms RDY-3 too:

The package includes RDY3 radar, inertia navigation, new onboard MPDU computer, a new ICMS Mark 4 electronic warfare suite, and a glass cockpit, a company spokeswoman said.

The initial operating capability will include the firing the Mica missile, in the infrared and electromagnetic versions.

Thales Set for Price Talks on Mirage 2000 Upgrade - Aero India - 2009

RDY radar details:

RDY-3 - airborne fire control radar

 

[Hyde]

they may want to pressure France to cancel any Nuclear deals take place in Future and India can buy more fighters. Today at Geo it was written that Manmohan Singh wants another Nuclear deal and this time from France. So may be these are the tactics to keep the france in check and out from the Pakistani boundaries.

 

[notting hill]

I think it is very important that India goes ahead with this deal...for two reason..
a)the mirage is one of the most capable a/c with the IAF...and the pilots have mastered this plane....and the upgrade sounds pretty cool....ouiouioui...you sure about the AESA?
b)the recent move by the USA to block the nuclear sale at the G8 summit and the french supporting us by offering to go by the NSG waiver should be appreciated.We should return all the american reactors and deal with the french in the future as France and Russia are the two countries who are competing for the slice of the 160billion$ indian nuclear market without problems.

paritosh, no where in that G8 summit declaration it is written that it was aimed against india. The agreement with NSG is based on 123 agreement india has with US. the agreements made on a multilateral forum cannot be reversed without consensus , no matter how badly it was negotiated by the previoous government. One reason why india doesn't want to sign NPT and CTBT and US refuses to ratify it. Before a committee on foreign relations a question regarding the progress of the deal was asked to a senior obama admin official. He reaffirmed his admin's support for the same. Secretary Clinton ,recently, in a seminar organised by USIBC in june did the same. What more support do you want.

You talk about russia and france. the only reason why you CAN deal with them is because of this nsg waiver . you got this waiver 'coz of US . It is nt a hidden fact about the staunch opposition to the deal in NSG . you think CHINA would have let this deal through or ireland , or the scandanavian countries . what kinda leverage does india have over those countries. you would't have got the uranium if this waiver wasn't there . you were already on the last reserves when this deal was done and yeaa i am talkin abt your existing nuclear plants.. you can check the archives for i dont talk rubbish here . yes, the motive was commercial but you think that US was the only country that had the motive here. does india stand nothing to gain from this deal????.. if US is sooo money minded i am sure they would have offered the deal to pakistan .if not 160 billion they would have atleast earned 50 billion over a long period of time fr sure. sweden , a country which is now offerin you nuclear tech was an opponent during nsg and either one of those countries sayin no would have ko'ed the deal . i am sure you are aware that each country has a veto in NSG . and talk abt 160B pie tell me paritosh how many deals has india signed with US till date??.. all i am seeing is areva and russia .. yeaa the plans are there with GE collabrating with this company and that . but nothing like what you have done with france and russia. so please give respect where it is due .. for you cant throw someone out of your country when it hasn't even entered yours.

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

they may want to pressure France to cancel any Nuclear deals take place in Future and India can buy more fighters. Today at Geo it was written that Manmohan Singh wants another Nuclear deal and this time from France. So may be these are the tactics to keep the france in check and out from the Pakistani boundaries.

well i do not totally agree with the news provided by TV netwok that you quoted...

as france and india already had sign an agrenment last year in september 2008
and french company AREVA has already started working on 02 nos. of nuclear power projects...

check this below

Power Engineering - Areva wins India nuclear deal 8bn Euro

 

[notting hill]

they may want to pressure France to cancel any Nuclear deals take place in Future and India can buy more fighters. Today at Geo it was written that Manmohan Singh wants another Nuclear deal and this time from France. So may be these are the tactics to keep the france in check and out from the Pakistani boundaries.

i have seen reports in pakistani media about nuclear deal offered to pakistan by france.. can we have any confirmation of the same from france's foreign ministry??? for i have seen reports quoting unnamed sources denying the same.. al they said was expertise was offered to SAFEGUARD existing nuclear reactors..

 

[TOPGUN]

Gabbar to answer your query why india might be interested in such an expensive upgradation.The answer could have three or more reasons.

One reason is that traditionally, mirage 2000 is known as a dream machine for the pilots who have flown it and therefore was the reason why IAF wanted to go for mirage dash 5 in MRCA. The ease of upgradation and familiarity with the aircraft goes a long way in convincing an air force to keep up with the aircraft in the same way pakistanis have done with their F-16s .

Over the years Mirage 2000 has been compared to F-16 for various defence purchases and in some aspects has been considered superior.The comparion to f-16 was made in the same way as was made with mig-29. There has always been a dogfight among these 3 awesome fighting machines. With JF-17 acquisition and F-16 upgradation in progress it makes sense for IAF to go in for upgradation and keep a dedicated strike force to keep a tab on pakistani acquisition.

The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s ECM system is touted as being able to jam the SA-10/SA-11/SA-15/SA-20 as well as the AIM-120 (we'll have to find out one day ). Even the ICMS Mk.II on the Mirage 2000-5 should be more then able to handle most Pakistan ground and most airbased radars. The Mirage 2000 (which india has currently) don't have the same ECM systems. If they shell out more money they could fit the IMEWS which offers a SEAD capability of sorts. If India throws out money the M-53 PX3 is around which boosts thrust by 15 percent, just needs some funding.

Pakistan could be put over the hump as it is rather doubtful they would ever be cleared for the JDAM, JASSM or any of the new "J" weapons. I could see them getting AIM-120s, GBUs, LDPs and such but nothing overly offensive like the AGM-88. I don't know if they would get cleared for the AIM-9X either. No idea on the ECM suite they will be cleared for either.

India would have a fleet numbers edge with their 45 Mirage 2000 and 126 F-18/RAFAEL/EUROFIGHTER. If all mirages are brought to the Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 (173ish) model that would give them one of the most powerful M2K fleet around. Pakistan should get up to 60-70 (number being thrown around but could be less) F-16C/D Block 52s and still have the 28 F-16A/B B-15s (which couldbe brought up to MLU). That's a sizeable edge in the numbers. Those numbers give them an edge in deployment.

The Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 costs a lot more and Pakistan will more then likely get their F-16s for free. Niether nation has the pilot market cornered. And the planes have differences that each side would try and exploit. But being the attcker would be both good and bad, good because they know when they are to attack and bad because some would more then likely have bombs. Granted with 5-6 MICA EM/IRs a Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2 could quickly turn and engage the enemy. Fighting would be rather close.

Granted I could not see Indian pilots wanting to fly low due to the fact Pakistan lacks decent high alt SAMs but has scores of MANPADs. The bigger investment in guided weapons shows they do want to stay out of range of MANPADs and "trashfire". The HQ-2 (SA-2) would be easily jammed by the ICMS Mk.II

Not a bad read boss ! i would agree and also disagree but as per Pakistani f-16's my friend they are not free lol nothing in this world is plzz inform your self on the PAF f-16's thx

 

[ouiouiouiouiouioui]

what france has offered to pakistan is "Nuclear Safety" and not any "civilian nuclear agreement" ..as far as i know...perhaps there is a confusion....

 

[notting hill]

Not a bad read boss ! i would agree and also disagree but as per Pakistani f-16's my friend they are not free lol nothing in this world is plzz inform your self on the PAF f-16's thx

Hi TOPGUN , here are my sources .

WASHINGTON: The United States has released $ 116 million to finance mid-life upgrades for Pakistan’s existing fleet of F-16 fighter planes. The administration released the amount after completion of necessary process for shifting funds from foreign military financing, already allocated for the anti-terrorism South Asian ally.

The U.S. officials, commenting on the proposed re-allocation of funds last month, said jets upgrades would help enhance Pakistan’s counter-terrorism capability. Pakistan’s ambassador to the United States Hussain Haqqani held a series of meetings with U.S. lawmakers during the past few weeks to secure wider support for the move.

MLU funded by US

source : US releases $116 million to finance F-16 upgrades | Pakistan Times!


The Pentagon reports detail the brazen diversion of funds given to Pakistan between 2002 and 2009 and the Pervez Musharraf government -- often described by George W Bush as America's "strong" ally in the "war against terror" - to acquire arms ranging from anti-tank missiles to F 16s. The arsenal was meant to blunt India's edge in conventional weaponry

Diversion of US money .. so in effect US money used to buy US PLANES.. its free isn't it .

source:Pakistan used US aid to fight India: US Pentagon | Gleez

just the stuff i read on the net mate .. i stand corrected if you can provide different info sources ..

 

[sudhir007]

Good Job bother

 

[Patriot]

Hi TOPGUN , here are my sources .

WASHINGTON: The United States has released $ 116 million to finance mid-life upgrades for Pakistan’s existing fleet of F-16 fighter planes. The administration released the amount after completion of necessary process for shifting funds from foreign military financing, already allocated for the anti-terrorism South Asian ally.

The U.S. officials, commenting on the proposed re-allocation of funds last month, said jets upgrades would help enhance Pakistan’s counter-terrorism capability. Pakistan’s ambassador to the United States Hussain Haqqani held a series of meetings with U.S. lawmakers during the past few weeks to secure wider support for the move.

MLU funded by US

source : US releases $116 million to finance F-16 upgrades | Pakistan Times!


The Pentagon reports detail the brazen diversion of funds given to Pakistan between 2002 and 2009 and the Pervez Musharraf government -- often described by George W Bush as America's "strong" ally in the "war against terror" - to acquire arms ranging from anti-tank missiles to F 16s. The arsenal was meant to blunt India's edge in conventional weaponry

Diversion of US money .. so in effect US money used to buy US PLANES.. its free isn't it .

source:Pakistan used US aid to fight India: US Pentagon | Gleez

just the stuff i read on the net mate .. i stand corrected if you give different info sources ..

Could you please stop posting this bullcrap?This was diverted for MLU of some Blk 15's which were being used for bombing Talibans as US wanted to equip them with Preicison Guided bombing capability so that we can bomb them with reducing colleterial damage...only 216 m.The total cost is 1.3 billion..and we paid 3+ billion for 18 new F16 from our national funds.So with all due respect i think you should do more research before making blanket statements.Here's the whole Article on this.

Chairman Ackerman, Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to address you today on Pakistan’s F-16 program.

On February 18 of this year, the Pakistani people went to the polls and elected moderate leaders who are working to set a stable, prosperous, democratic path for Pakistan into the future. The journey along this path is going to be a difficult one as Pakistan faces increasing economic challenges and the serious threat of growing instability in the border regions. The United States wants to see this new government succeed, not only because it represents the desires of the Pakistani people but because we believe that a moderate government with a democratic mandate is the most effective partner in the fight against terrorists and violent extremism.

During Prime Minister Gillani’s visit to Washington in late July, you saw the United States and Pakistan committed to maintaining and strengthening our broad-based partnership, and the United States committed to steps that can help Pakistan deal with economic problems and increase its effectiveness in countering the extremist threat. The Administration’s request to re-direct Foreign Military

Financing in 2008 and beyond to support F-16 Mid-Life Updates speaks directly to these two commitments. Updates to Pakistan’s F-16s will make these aircraft far more effective against terrorist targets, while helping with these payments will provide the newly-elected Pakistani government valuable fiscal flexibility as they deal with rising food and fuel prices.

Mr. Chairman, my colleagues and I represent the Administration’s commitment to the F-16 program and we ask for your support to approve the Administration’s request to re-direct the remaining $110 million in 2008 Foreign

Military Financing for the Mid-Life Update and an additional $142 million in the future. The new Government of Pakistan stands behind these requests and has committed to assume subsequent payments with national funds beginning in December 2009.

F-16s Defined U.S.-Pakistan Engagement

The sale of F-16s to Pakistan became a transformative element of the U.S.- Pakistan bilateral relationship over 20 years ago, and this historical context is important to understand and remember as we determine how to handle the questions of F-16 financing today. Not only a component of Pakistan’s national defense, the F-16 has become an iconic symbol of our bilateral relationship and our commitment to each other.

In the early 1980s, the U.S. government initially agreed to sell Pakistan 111 F-16 aircraft. This decision was influenced by our close partnership with Pakistan during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. By October 1990, however, Pressler sanctions were imposed when President (George Herbert Walker) Bush was unable to certify that Pakistan was not developing a nuclear weapon. The Pressler sanctions led to a decade-long suspension of security assistance to Pakistan and a deficit of trust between our two countries that we are still working to overcome. The suspension of our security assistance programs required under Pressler meant the suspension and eventual cancellation of an additional sale of F-16 aircraft that would have augmented the 40 F-16s Pakistan purchased in 1982. That cancellation has been viewed as a symbol of the collapse of our relationship during the 1990s, a period which remains highly emotional for many Pakistanis. The suspension of our security assistance also precluded Pakistani military officers from attending U.S. military schools, which has produced nearly a generation of Pakistani military officers who have not traveled to the United States to learn sideby- side with American officers.

September 11 Re-defined Our Relationship

As you know, Mr. Chairman, the September 11, 2001 attacks resulted in a profound shift in U.S. policy towards South and Central Asia. The terrorist attacks on our homeland led to a strategic choice by the Government of Pakistan to support U.S. efforts to remove the Taliban regime from power in Afghanistan. Pakistan’s decision gave us the support of a critical neighbor, enabled us to undertake Operation Enduring Freedom and has helped to sustain coalition operations over the last seven years, with Pakistan’s road networks and port facilities serving as the critical supply line for our military forces in Afghanistan. - 3 -

In return, after September 11th, the Administration committed to reinvigorating the security relationship between our two countries. This led to Pakistan’s designation as a Major Non-NATO Ally in 2004 and the President’s commitment to provide Pakistan a $3 billion assistance package over five years, evenly divided between security and development. Soon after, the Administration sought to overturn decades of bitterness by agreeing to sell Pakistan a new generation of F-16s and providing it with the ability to upgrade its existing fleet. This agreement was formally codified in September 2006 when Pakistan signed three separate Letters of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) that constitute the core of Pakistan’s F-16 program. Prior to signing the Letters of Offer and Acceptance, the Administration notified Congress that the sale would serve to stabilize the conventional military balance in South Asia, provide Pakistan the ability to conduct Close Air Support in ongoing operations in the Global War on Terror and restore Pakistan’s confidence in the enduring nature of our relationship with them.

The Purchase

Pakistan had originally planned a total purchase valued at $5.1 billion, almost all of it in national funds. The 2005 Kashmir earthquake and subsequent financial constraints caused Pakistan to reduce the number of new planes it wanted to purchase from 36 to 18, which lowered the overall value of the deal to approximately $3.1 billion. The 18 new planes are valued at $1.4 billion, with the remainder of the $3.1 billion dedicated to associated munitions (valued at approximately $641 million) and 46 Mid-Life Update (MLU) kits for Pakistan's existing F-16 fleet (estimated to cost $891 million). Additionally, the United States has provided Pakistan with 14 F-16s designated as Excess Defense Articles (EDA).

Pakistan will use reprogrammed funds to purchase the Mid- Life Update kits to upgrade the Excess Defense Article F-16s delivered over the last two and a half years. The Mid-Life Update case was written and agreed upon by the U.S. and Pakistan as a "mixed funding" case, allowing Pakistan to use $108.395 million in FY 2006 FMF credits on the overall $891 million case. Pakistan’s subsequent request to use additional Foreign Military Financing has led us to the current request to re-direct funds in FY 2008 and beyond. The Pakistanis have requested that the Administration allow it to use a portion of its FY 2008 and FY 2009 Foreign Military Financing Presidential commitment, totaling $368M, for the Mid-Life Update program. They have also - 4 - committed to making all additional payments beyond this request with national funds. Even with this Pakistani request, over 83% of the F-16 program will have been funded through Pakistani national funds. It is important to note that Pakistan has a consistent payment record on the three other Foreign Military Sales cases associated with this sale and historically on all other Foreign Military Sales cases.

F-16s and theWar on Terror

F-16s provide a critical counterterrorism capability to Pakistan and the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has recently made extensive use of its aging F-16 fleet to support Pakistan Army operations in the Swat Valley and in the Bajaur Agency of the Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA). According to information furnished to us by the Pakistan Embassy in Washington, the PAF flew 93 sorties in August 2008 in operations against the Taliban. However, their current model F-16 can be used for close air support missions only in daylight and good visibility. They cannot be employed at night, a fact not lost on the Taliban and other extremist groups being targeted.

U.S. F-16s use day-night, all weather, air-dropped precision-guided munitions to great effect in Iraq; and we believe Pakistan should be able to use this capability to achieve our shared goals in countering militants along its western border. The new and enhanced F-16s will provide Pakistan the ability to attack fleeing targets with precision during all weather conditions. The Mid-Life Update will enable the Pakistan Air Force to use an advanced targeting pod that provides the ability to generate ground position data that can then be used to direct guided munitions to a target. In addition, the Mid-Life Update comes with an advanced communications system that enables real time communication with ground forces – a critical capability for Close Air Support missions. Combined, these systems provide Pakistan’s Air Force with the technological capability to conduct precision close air strikes against Al Qaeda, Taliban, and associated terrorist targets in the FATA, as well as provide non-traditional Intelligence Surveillance and Reconnaissance (NTISR), a critical enabler in a counterinsurgency campaign. The Pakistan Air Force will receive considerable training associated with the F-16 cases including specific F-16 pilot and maintenance training for their F-16 technicians. We are currently finalizing a comprehensive training plan with us that will include Close Air Support, Combat Search and Rescue, aerial refueling, and night flying operations. This will also mean an improved ability to limit civilian casualties, which will in turn lead to greater willingness on the part of the Pakistani military to employ the F-16s in a counter-terrorism role.

It is also important to note that Pakistan’s request to use Foreign Military Financing for the Mid-Life Update program will not detract from investments in other equipment that is being employed in direct support of ongoing military operations in the Tribal Areas. Our original congressional notification for the use of $247 million of Pakistan’s Foreign Military Financing allocation stated that Pakistan would use this assistance to finance the refurbishment of Pakistan Navy P-3C aircraft, to purchase Pakistan Air Force Command and Control articles and services, tactical radios for Pakistan’s Army, TOW missiles and to modernize and maintain Pakistan’s Cobra helicopters. Twenty million dollars of the $247 million will still be used to purchase TOW missiles and tactical radios. In addition, the Cobra helicopters, for which there are signed Letters of Offer and Acceptance, will be financed through Pakistan’s remaining FY 2008 Foreign Military Financing allocation of $50.57 million, which will be released pending expiration of the congressional notification period.

Conclusion

Mr. Chairman, I would like to emphasize the strategic importance of Pakistan to U.S. interests, not just regionally, but globally. While the F-16 plays an important role in Pakistan’s efforts to defeat extremism, it also has achieved strategic importance as a symbolic barometer of the overall state of our relationship and trust between our militaries. Given the tangible and symbolic importance of Pakistan’s F-16 program we request Congressional support to redirect the remaining $110 million in Foreign Military Financing in Fiscal Year 2008 and up to $142 million in the future. I thank you for this opportunity to appear before this Committee. My colleagues and I are happy to respond to your questions at this point. Thank you.

 

[sudhir007]

Could you please stop posting this bullcrap?This was diverted for MLU of some Blk 15's which were being used for bombing Talibans as US wanted to equip them with Preicison Guided bombing capability so that we can bomb them with reducing colleterial damage...only 216 m.The total cost is 1.3 billion..and we paid 3+ billion for 18 new F16 from our national funds.So with all due respect i think you should do more research before making blanket statements.Here's the whole Article on this.

18 new F-16 for 3+ billion r you crazy or wht the modern F-16 Blk -60/70 which is come at not more then 50-60 million per plane????