new paf book launched

[TaimiKhan]

Ok will do as l go through it [emoji5]

Sir ji, just exceptional things so that ppl still have to buy the book. [emoji4]

 

[khanasifm]

Ok go the book mostly as the author stated it's a coffee table book with lots of pics and little to read, mostly repetition of authors previous articles from AFM only two / three new things

1) k8 and now conversion course followed by advance 20-30 hours course as lead in fighter cover advance tactics so pilots can go to jf, f16 and mirages straight from k8 as landing speed and take off speed of k8 is close F16

2) no 25 and 27 mirage sqn are advance sqn with stand off weapons and sead weapons

3) no 20 sqn did move to mm alam to take over 19 previous role as f7pg ocu as I had guessed and stated on the forum


Tps77, ylc-2 and Tps43 ( med to high level ) and awacs integrated with three forces sams into network, did not mention crotale but mistral, Anza and spada

Mpdr 45, 60 and 90 provide low level and ylc-6 provide low to medium level coverage

No 19 sqn is now f16 ocu so young pilot will go to no 19

Lastly my guess looks like no 18 will convert to jf when current year jf are deliver toward the end or beginning of next year and move to rafique to take over no 20 sqn facilities

Also book cover ssw which I am still reading


One last thing per Alan raf pilot had praise for pg very agile aircraft

Plus usaf pilots were amazed at paf pilot for flying 4 mission per day with full brief and debrief something they think is too much of work per day

 

[khanasifm]

Full chapter on ssw, few officers from other branches such as aero Eng also volunteered for ssw , focused on eastern front offensive but did participated on swat and south wazirstan operations where it cleared landing zones before army ssg etc heli came for landing , every 3-6 month they have exercise/refresher focus operations target via free fall jump, 20-40 km run with full kit 17-19 kg etc, trained to keep enemy away from paf assets and attack enemy radar, assets and airfields as ssw know more about type of eqpt and areas to hit vs ssg who does not have enough knowledge of air ops and airfields /aircraft

The end

 

[SQ8]

Full chapter on ssw, few officers from other branches such as aero Eng also volunteered for ssw , focused on eastern front offensive but did participated on swat and south wazirstan operations where it cleared landing zones before army ssg etc heli came for landing , every 3-6 month they have exercise/refresher focus operations target via free fall jump, 20-40 km run with full kit 17-19 kg etc, trained to keep enemy away from paf assets and attack enemy radar, assets and airfields as ssw know more about type of eqpt and areas to hit vs ssg who does not have enough knowledge of air ops and airfields /aircraft

The end

They want to avoid a repeat of the disaster in 65 with the SSg drop.

Ok go the book mostly as the author stated it's a coffee table book with lots of pics and little to read, mostly repetition of authors previous articles from AFM only two / three new things

1) k8 and now conversion course followed by advance 20-30 hours course as lead in fighter cover advance tactics so pilots can go to jf, f16 and mirages straight from k8 as landing speed and take off speed of k8 is close F16

2) no 25 and 27 mirage sqn are advance sqn with stand off weapons and sead weapons

3) no 20 sqn did move to mm alam to take over 19 previous role as f7pg ocu as I had guessed and stated on the forum


Tps77, ylc-2 and Tps43 ( med to high level ) and awacs integrated with three forces sams into network, did not mention crotale but mistral, Anza and spada

Mpdr 45, 60 and 90 provide low level and ylc-6 provide low to medium level coverage

No 19 sqn is now f16 ocu so young pilot will go to no 19

Lastly my guess looks like no 18 will convert to jf when current year jf are deliver toward the end or beginning of next year and move to rafique to take over no 20 sqn facilities

Also book cover ssw which I am still reading


One last thing per Alan raf pilot had praise for pg very agile aircraft

Plus usaf pilots were amazed at paf pilot for flying 4 mission per day with full brief and debrief something they think is too much of work per day

1) once the tweets go, there will be a missing speed bracket.

Crotale is being phased out.

That high sortie rate is something that has our neighbors hesitant to engage us.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

They want to avoid a repeat of the disaster in 65 with the SSg drop.

1) once the tweets go, there will be a missing speed bracket.

Crotale is being phased out.

That high sortie rate is something that has our neighbors hesitant to engage us.

I suspect the replacing of T-37s will boil down to the K-8 and TAI Hürkuş.

There are valid cases for both. First, PAC is already producing 17% of the K-8's sub-assemblies and the aircraft already benefits from immense scale and even multiple turbofan options.

On the other hand, TAI is interested to partner with PAC on a variety of fronts and (as a mix of courtesy to Pakistan's fiscal bandwidth) offered PAC a few co-production opportunities (e.g. Anka, T-129, etc). PAC is also raising its own MRO facility for the P&WC PT6A, which is the Hürkuş' powerplant.

There's a third option as well, but this will result in the K-8 replacing the T-37s.

Aero Vodochody has re-started the production of the L-159. Of all the LIFT options available, the L-159 is the closest in fitting the PAF's concept of a LIFT, i.e. it uses a low-cost turbofan engine (i.e. cheap to fly), fairly maneuverable, simulates a fighter without actually being one (unlike the FA-50 and M-346) and has a low acquisition cost.

Prague won't get in the way of any sales, especially to the PAF (which would basically be its largest new buyer). If the PAF was to acquire the L-159, then that would mean the K-8s would be transitioned to assume the role of the T-37 in entirety.

PS @Oscar: You might find the L-159's design somewhat interesting in that the intakes are above the wing. I'm not sure if it's relevant, but it is now apparently Iraq's preferred choice of ground attack aircraft for CAS.

How would you gauge the low-altitude flight here?

 

[SQ8]

I suspect the replacing of T-37s will boil down to the K-8 and TAI Hürkuş.

There are valid cases for both. First, PAC is already producing 17% of the K-8's sub-assemblies and the aircraft already benefits from immense scale and even multiple turbofan options.

On the other hand, TAI is interested to partner with PAC on a variety of fronts and (as a mix of courtesy to Pakistan's fiscal bandwidth) offered PAC a few co-production opportunities (e.g. Anka, T-129, etc). PAC is also raising its own MRO facility for the P&WC PT6A, which is the Hürkuş' powerplant.

There's a third option as well, but this will result in the K-8 replacing the T-37s.

Aero Vodochody has re-started the production of the L-159. Of all the LIFT options available, the L-159 is the closest in fitting the PAF's concept of a LIFT, i.e. it uses a low-cost turbofan engine (i.e. cheap to fly), fairly maneuverable, simulates a fighter without actually being one (unlike the FA-50 and M-346) and has a low acquisition cost.

Prague won't get in the way of any sales, especially to the PAF (which would basically be its largest new buyer). If the PAF was to acquire the L-159, then that would mean the K-8s would be transitioned to assume the role of the T-37 in entirety.

PS @Oscar: You might find the L-159's design somewhat interesting in that the intakes are above the wing. I'm not sure if it's relevant, but it is now apparently Iraq's preferred choice of ground attack aircraft for CAS.

How would you gauge the low-altitude flight here?

The JF-17B is our LiFt. Not tailored but can do the job, its that slow to mid speed bracket that needs the thinking; but as such the tweets can soldier on for a while as they are very tough airframes.

The czech jets intake position has to do a bit with rough field operation mentality in all warsaw pact designs.
It's too much of a replication of the K-8 as that airframe is just fine for ijt and the JF-17 is the size of the F-5.

One advantage is that pilots coming off a JF-17 LiFt can go straight to JF-17 operational squadrons without the need for retraining them into the aircraft

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

The JF-17B is our LiFt. Not tailored but can do the job, its that slow to mid speed bracket that needs the thinking; but as such the tweets can soldier on for a while as they are very tough airframes.

The czech jets intake position has to do a bit with rough field operation mentality in all warsaw pact designs.
It's too much of a replication of the K-8 as that airframe is just fine for ijt and the JF-17 is the size of the F-5.

One advantage is that pilots coming off a JF-17 LiFt can go straight to JF-17 operational squadrons without the need for retraining them into the aircraft

Agreed. Moreover, the cost of new platform acquisitions run well beyond the aircraft themselves, but the infrastructure, training and support channel. It seems the PAF is tightening the belt, essentially requiring that new platform purchases build upon the existing base - i.e. JF-17, Erieye, F-16, T-37 (i.e. from Turkey, albeit free).

The ACM himself stated that a new off-the-shelf fighter purchase is necessary. So if such an acquisition is on the PAF's table, then I doubt there'll be any tolerance for a second platform to clutter the process and break funding concentration (which doesn't have much flexibility anyways).

Another aspect is that the Hurkus, L-159, etc, are JF-17 competitors. Sure, they're different in design and function, but they're competing for the same entry-level combat aircraft market. The PAF needs to drive confidence and scale for its own platform.

 

[Falcon26]

I suspect the replacing of T-37s will boil down to the K-8 and TAI Hürkuş.

There are valid cases for both. First, PAC is already producing 17% of the K-8's sub-assemblies and the aircraft already benefits from immense scale and even multiple turbofan options.

On the other hand, TAI is interested to partner with PAC on a variety of fronts and (as a mix of courtesy to Pakistan's fiscal bandwidth) offered PAC a few co-production opportunities (e.g. Anka, T-129, etc). PAC is also raising its own MRO facility for the P&WC PT6A, which is the Hürkuş' powerplant.

There's a third option as well, but this will result in the K-8 replacing the T-37s.

Aero Vodochody has re-started the production of the L-159. Of all the LIFT options available, the L-159 is the closest in fitting the PAF's concept of a LIFT, i.e. it uses a low-cost turbofan engine (i.e. cheap to fly), fairly maneuverable, simulates a fighter without actually being one (unlike the FA-50 and M-346) and has a low acquisition cost.

Prague won't get in the way of any sales, especially to the PAF (which would basically be its largest new buyer). If the PAF was to acquire the L-159, then that would mean the K-8s would be transitioned to assume the role of the T-37 in entirety.

PS @Oscar: You might find the L-159's design somewhat interesting in that the intakes are above the wing. I'm not sure if it's relevant, but it is now apparently Iraq's preferred choice of ground attack aircraft for CAS.

How would you gauge the low-altitude flight here?

Do you think Pakistan Army might benefit in acquiring the TAI Hurkus for CAS? Will this free up PAF assets and help them to focus more on the IAF? Any thoughts?

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Do you think Pakistan Army might benefit in acquiring the TAI Hurkus for CAS? Will this free up PAF assets and help them to focus more on the IAF? Any thoughts?

The Army seems to have decided to build its CAS strategy around attack helicopters.

The PAF does not seem to be interested in having fixed-wing COIN platforms, it seems it would prefer delegating the role to the JF-17 and perhaps even a MALE UAV (which AvDI is developing). It is possible that in the PAF's own cost estimation, using the JF-17 may be cheaper. It's not just the cost of fuel (in which a turboprop will have the key advantage), but cost of spare parts and maintenance as well. Nigeria is to pay $45 m to buy and maintain each A-29 Super Tucano, but Myanmar is reportedly paying $35 m for each JF-17. Seeing that JF-17 spare parts can be bought in PKR (as per Pakistani labour and material costs), the JF-17 may simply be cheaper.

The only way to alter the comparison would be to see something like the Hurkus built under license in Pakistan. In that case, there is a case (for the sake of scale) to induct an armed variant for COIN.

 

[Falcon26]

The Army seems to have decided to build its CAS strategy around attack helicopters.

The PAF does not seem to be interested in having fixed-wing COIN platforms, it seems it would prefer delegating the role to the JF-17 and perhaps even a MALE UAV (which AvDI is developing). It is possible that in the PAF's own cost estimation, using the JF-17 may be cheaper. It's not just the cost of fuel (in which a turboprop will have the key advantage), but cost of spare parts and maintenance as well. Nigeria is to pay $45 m to buy and maintain each A-29 Super Tucano, but Myanmar is reportedly paying $35 m for each JF-17. Seeing that JF-17 spare parts can be bought in PKR (as per Pakistani labour and material costs), the JF-17 may simply be cheaper.

The only way to alter the comparison would be to see something like the Hurkus built under license in Pakistan. In that case, there is a case (for the sake of scale) to induct an armed variant for COIN.

Thanks for the very detailed and comprehensive answer. Puts things in perspective. Much appreciated.

 

[fatman17]

The Army seems to have decided to build its CAS strategy around attack helicopters.

The PAF does not seem to be interested in having fixed-wing COIN platforms, it seems it would prefer delegating the role to the JF-17 and perhaps even a MALE UAV (which AvDI is developing). It is possible that in the PAF's own cost estimation, using the JF-17 may be cheaper. It's not just the cost of fuel (in which a turboprop will have the key advantage), but cost of spare parts and maintenance as well. Nigeria is to pay $45 m to buy and maintain each A-29 Super Tucano, but Myanmar is reportedly paying $35 m for each JF-17. Seeing that JF-17 spare parts can be bought in PKR (as per Pakistani labour and material costs), the JF-17 may simply be cheaper.

The only way to alter the comparison would be to see something like the Hurkus built under license in Pakistan. In that case, there is a case (for the sake of scale) to induct an armed variant for COIN.

With indias IBG strategy, it makes sense to have a dedicated army CAS group comprising of NASR conventional and armed attack helos. Current inventory of 40 odd servisible helos is not sufficient numbers, we may need to double that figure for effective CAS in the desert areas where the main Indian push is likely.

 

[fatman17]

With indias IBG strategy, it makes sense to have a dedicated army CAS group comprising of NASR conventional and armed attack helos. Current inventory of 40 odd servisible helos is not sufficient numbers, we may need to double that figure for effective CAS in the desert areas where the main Indian push is likely.

PAF will have its hands full in defending it's key airbases and strategic assets, counter air offensive actions and maritime support to the navy. Army will be on its own when it comes to CAS and air defence.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

PAF will have its hands full in defending it's key airbases and strategic assets, counter air offensive actions and maritime support to the navy. Army will be on its own when it comes to CAS and air defence.

Besides attack helicopters, the Army can also consider collaborating with the PAF (and PN) to develop an attritable UAV. These are basically just MALE UAVs, but designed to be low-cost and disposable. The Kratos Valkyrie will be capable of launching via rail-assisted rockets and land via parachute. In other words, the Army can truck a CAS or long-range air attack force along with tanks and APCs. In fact, an aerial force can even be launched from within mountains, forests, etc.

From purely the aircraft design standpoint, these attritable UAVs could be developed by combining the Ra'ad's engine, fuel compartment and flight control system to a stealthy blended-wing airframe.

http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show-2017/kratos-promote-valkyrie-mako-drones-paris

 

[fatman17]

Besides attack helicopters, the Army can also consider collaborating with the PAF (and PN) to develop an attritable UAV. These are basically just MALE UAVs, but designed to be low-cost and disposable. The Kratos Valkyrie will be capable of launching via rail-assisted rockets and land via parachute. In other words, the Army can truck a CAS or long-range air attack force along with tanks and APCs. In fact, an aerial force can even be launched from within mountains, forests, etc.

From purely the aircraft design standpoint, these attritable UAVs could be developed by combining the Ra'ad's engine, fuel compartment and flight control system to a stealthy blended-wing airframe.

http://aviationweek.com/paris-air-show-2017/kratos-promote-valkyrie-mako-drones-paris

Q. Why is army's attitude lukewarm towards any type of "drones ", armed or unarmed. Only airforce and navy seem to understand the importance of this technology

 

[CriticalThought]

I suspect the replacing of T-37s will boil down to the K-8 and TAI Hürkuş.

There are valid cases for both. First, PAC is already producing 17% of the K-8's sub-assemblies and the aircraft already benefits from immense scale and even multiple turbofan options.

On the other hand, TAI is interested to partner with PAC on a variety of fronts and (as a mix of courtesy to Pakistan's fiscal bandwidth) offered PAC a few co-production opportunities (e.g. Anka, T-129, etc). PAC is also raising its own MRO facility for the P&WC PT6A, which is the Hürkuş' powerplant.

There's a third option as well, but this will result in the K-8 replacing the T-37s.

Aero Vodochody has re-started the production of the L-159. Of all the LIFT options available, the L-159 is the closest in fitting the PAF's concept of a LIFT, i.e. it uses a low-cost turbofan engine (i.e. cheap to fly), fairly maneuverable, simulates a fighter without actually being one (unlike the FA-50 and M-346) and has a low acquisition cost.

Prague won't get in the way of any sales, especially to the PAF (which would basically be its largest new buyer). If the PAF was to acquire the L-159, then that would mean the K-8s would be transitioned to assume the role of the T-37 in entirety.

PS @Oscar: You might find the L-159's design somewhat interesting in that the intakes are above the wing. I'm not sure if it's relevant, but it is now apparently Iraq's preferred choice of ground attack aircraft for CAS.

How would you gauge the low-altitude flight here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoplane#Low_wing

Low wing


Low wing on a Curtiss P-40.
A low wing is one which is located on or near the base of the fuselage.

Placing the wing low down allows good visibility upwards and frees up the central fuselage from the wing spar carry-through. By reducing pendulum stability, it makes the aircraft more manoeuvrable, as on the Spitfire; but aircraft that value stability over manoeuvrability may then need some dihedral.

A feature of the low wing position is its significant ground effect, giving the plane a tendency to float further before landing.[4][5] Conversely, this ground effect permits shorter takeoffs.

That instability would make rolling easier, but with manual controls I suspect you would need heavy hands to get the aircraft back to trim. Its a good handicap for trainees to have, because it gives them a good sub-conscious awareness of how easy it is to get into a roll and what it takes to get out of it. The pilot will need to be alert at all times and keep his mind present.