New Anti army laws to be passed by NA

[Jugger]

If democracy is the part of secularism, than you can keep it in your bharat matta..

But on brighter note: we hate corruption.

What is there in secularism that you reject it so vehemently???
I simply don't get this aversion...

 

[SecularNationalist]

What is there in secularism that you reject it so vehemently???
I simply don't get this aversion...

Because it separates religion from the state and end political influence of corrupt people wearing masks of religion or simply most people here use secularism and atheism interchangeably and cannot differentiate between the two.

 

[tarrar]

Other than 2-a and 2-b, I don't see how this does any major harm.

@tarrar @American Pakistani

Really? Making sure the army is financially accountable, is somehow corrupt and deserves a coup?

I expected this sort of simple thinking from @tarrar but not you @American Pakistani , especially considering you're an expat, which means you not only enjoy democratic values yourself, but at this point, you have no right to demand anything from Pakistan. How dare you?

@tarrar you have no idea what you're talking about. If you had it your way, Pakistan would be like north korea.

I am sorry but this law against PA is just simply not acceptable in Pakistan. As you already know Pakistan is only rule by those who work for foreign agenda & their true faces have been exposed completely in these few days that for whom they are taking orders from. The recent amendment in the constitution is a clear proof of it.

PA under this law if implemented will be destroyed completely & will become something equal to Punjab or Sindh police. Keep in mind that US & other powers had tried to destroy ISI in the past, today the same tactics have been applied against PA which is to destroy them completely.

George Bush or the congressman said, that Pakistan does not need a Army but they should have a uniformed police. So now you can connect the dots that how these bastards are desperate to harm Pakistan.

 

[imadul]

At most 62, 63 and NAB ord could be watered down, rest is just distraction and bargain chips.
These will be challenged in SC and would be struck down, but SC would have to give very good reasons that Parliament cannot exercise it's legislation rights.
Any thing can happen in Pakistan
Should we see 7 hr marathon conference in this backdrop?

 

[Cyberian]

You can keep being wistful about the past. It pays no dividends. War is about gambits. You take risks. That risks also showed us who stands with us or against us.

Seriously, people find it just convenient to pile up blame on the military. Here is the thing: all these cockroaches such as Nawaz Sharif, Altaf etc. which you call 'military's produce', if they military continued to be in power, it would deal with them all and keep them in check. Our problem is that the people of this country are illiterate and easily fooled by devious politicians. They don't know how to agitate for their rights. They have turned into zombies going about their business, completely oblivious to their surroundings. And the so called 'civil society' that was so active in Musharraf's demise, it is in their vested interests to let the country go to dust so that we will have to go begging in front of IMF and then become completely dependent on America who will advance its secular ideals, destroy the nuclear program, and force friendliness with India. Its what these liberals want and so they are criminally silent. As a matter of fact, they are right there with Nawaz Sharif.

You have a problem with being completely focused on military. I am telling you, if the people of this nation combine together and agree to work diligently under military rule, we have the potential to reach the moon. Democracy is just one more system. Elevating it to the level of religion is idioticity of the highest level. So keep following corrupt, ineligible, and inept people as your leaders and let them lead you straight into the abyss. Your loss.

What on Earth is wrong with you brother? Are you that delusional and brainwashed by military propaganda that you search for filtered water in a gutter?

When did I say I support Nawaz Sharif? For your info, I fully support democracy and respect all sitting democratic Governments no matter which party is elected.

Military had Nawaz Sharif locked up between 1999-2002, how many billions did they recover? What was the state of the economy between 1999-2002 when the military was not receiving any American chanda?

In the mid-1990s under the late Benazir Bhutto, Pakistan's economy was the 37the largest in the world. By 2007, under 10-years of tyrannical military-rule it had dropped to the 49th position.

There were 54 suicide bombings in 2007 and the country was on the brink of a civil war all because of a dollarised Pakistani military.

At least get you facts right brother.

 

[CriticalThought]

What on Earth is wrong with you brother? Are you that delusional and brainwashed by military propaganda that you search for filtered water in a gutter?

When did I say I support Nawaz Sharif? For your info, I fully support democracy and respect all sitting democratic Governments no matter which party is elected.

Military had Nawaz Sharif locked up between 1999-2002, how many billions did they recover? What was the state of the economy between 1999-2002 when the military was not receiving any American chanda?

In the mid-1990s under the late Benazir Bhutto, Pakistan's economy was the 37the largest in the world. By 2007, under 10-years of tyrannical military-rule it had dropped to the 49th position.

There were 54 suicide bombings in 2007 and the country was on the brink of a civil war all because of a dollarised Pakistani military.

At least get you facts right brother.

I have my facts right, you simply have your priorities messed up royally. FACT: the army today is very different from the army all those years ago. FACT: the government today consists of financial terrorists. I want the army to remove the financial terrorists. Is that too much to ask for?

 

[Cyberian]

And tell me which major country was not aligned ? Name one ?

Liaquat Ali Khan opted to visit USA first despite of having invitation from USSR ... Now you are saying the army killed Liaquat Ali Khan ... Man you are really insane,

Whatever, infrastructure developments, od electricity, gas, water, dams and double railway line of Sindh all was done during AYub era,,,

Our growth rate was close to 10% ... You are making base less claim ...

The late Liaquat Ali Khan did not sign agreements with the US for lease of Pakistani Air Base. Neither did he handover Shakagam Valley to China.

Dobara apnay facts check karo.

 

[Cyberian]

I have my facts right, you simply have your priorities messed up royally. FACT: the army today is very different from the army all those years ago. FACT: the government today consists of financial terrorists. I want the army to remove the financial terrorists. Is that too much to ask for?

Army takes the biggest chunk of the Federal Budget ($8.2 billion for 2017-2018) and still lets the US bomb Pakistan for the 429th time.

Where does all that dollar go brother and where does the $220 million received per month from the US to Pakistan military go?

How much are the Generals making under the table for each drone strike they allow? According to tyrant Pervez Musharraf in his infamous autobiography, 'In the Line of Fire', the military made tons of money by handing over people from the Pakistani soil to the US.

 

[New World]

What is there in secularism that you reject it so vehemently???
I simply don't get this aversion...

and what is wrong is religion which you reject it so vehemently?

I simply don't get why you hate so much to religions.

 

[CriticalThought]

Army takes the biggest chunk of the Federal Budget ($8.2 billion for 2017-2018) and still lets the US bomb Pakistan for the 429th time.

Where does all that dollar go brother and where does the $220 million from the US to Pakistan military go?

How much are the Generals making under the table for each drone strike they allow? According to tyrant Pervez Musharraf in his infamous autobiography, 'In the Line of Fire', the military made tons of money by handing over people from the Pakistani soil to the US.

That tyrant is an absconder from court. Don't associate him with today's military.

You should do some research before trying to stir the pot. You sound like someone paid by government to denigrate the military. You should stand in a corner and reflect upon your choices.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_strikes_in_Pakistan

 

[Cyberian]

That tyrant is an absconder from court. Don't associate him with today's military.

You should do some research before trying to stir the pot. You sound like someone paid by government to denigrate the military. You should stand in a corner and reflect upon your choices.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_strikes_in_Pakistan

View attachment 429528

Thanks for the table. Look at the well paid Generals who were responsible for the defence of the country between 2004-2017:

General Pervez Musharraf
General Pervez Kiyani
General Raheel Shareef
General Qamar Bajwa

Thank you Generals for 429 American bombing missions over Pakistan so far.

 

[CriticalThought]

Thanks for the table. Look at the well paid Generals who were responsible for the defence of the country between 2004-2017:

General Pervez Musharraf
General Pervez Kiyani
General Raheel Shareef
General Qamar Bajwa

Thank you Generals for 429 American bombing missions over Pakistan so far.

Your anti-army diatribe is duly noted.

 

[Jugger]

and what is wrong is religion which you reject it so vehemently?

I simply don't get why you hate so much to religions.

Religion is a private affair, I don't mind it at all. Religion is between a person and god, I or anyone else have no business interfering in it.
But politics and religion when mixed is very dangerous because no nation is totally homogeneous in religious population.
If you support one religion then you would obviously alienate the others.
Conflicts will rise in such states.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Sir, with all due respect, what is the use of democracy when these politicians have destroyed the country in 9 years of continuous democratic rule? Don't you see Pakistan buried deep down due to corruption and heavy debts. Who is going to pay all this? To distract public from bad governance and to hide their chori chakari, these politicians have found new tactics. This way both, the public and the army will stay occupied and the kartoot of politicians will remain hidden.

The military has no right to impose its will on civilian leadership. All previous dictatorships have been acts of high treason, and no matter what justification is given in the short term for them (if any), in the end, when they end, the true damage can begin to reveal itself. You don't see most of the damage because it is secondary. Average Pakistani can make sense of headlines that say energy crisis is getting worse, or x leader accused of corruption. What's harder to understand or to convey to the public is how damaging to the politics of Pakistan it is that a system for governance has NEVER been established truly in Pakistan and that the ability to govern Pakistan is derailed by every dictatorship that has come along. The damage is secondary, if you damage the system, it will produce bad results economically. The US went from being a small group of 13 colonies, mostly agricultural, newly freed from the yolk of British imperialism to the sole superpower on earth by having a system established first on which prosperity could be built. A few visionaries like John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Washington, Franklin and Hamilton built a political system with unbreakable rules, a system for distributed political power that doesn't allow any single force to dominate, and one that is checked by civilians regularly. First came that set up, then came economic development, and then came superpower status. Pakistan has a civilian system for a few years and then it gets destroyed routinely, and before it has a chance to mature, it gets destroyed again.

I personally have no party political affiliation, many years ago I was sympathetic to PTI until I caught wind of some things I didn't like. Now I am of the opinion that all parties are corrupt or at least potentially corrupt. All parties are quite incompetent, to the extent that should they even wish to be honest actors and cease corruption, they would find themselves being unfit and unable to govern effectively anyway. Above all, what makes ALL of this worse is that Pakistan's civilian institutions and groundwork for effective democracy is extremely weak, fragile and new. Every new dictatorship uproots it and we start from square one. Every dictatorship that comes along makes the years after it feel much harder for effective civilian governance.

Ultimately, Pakistan was by design meant to be sort of a democracy, never did our founding fathers envisage a future where the common man suffered a game of cat and mouse between corrupt and incompetent military elite overstepping their bounds and then corrupt and even more incompetent civilian elite running the show for however long they could before military comes in again.

The hope with allowing this sick and anaemic democracy to continue is that it CAN be influenced by the Pakistani public, no matter how corrupt the system is. Pakistanis CAN exert influence on a civilian system for change and reform, they can do this through opposition, through the courts, at every election and by popular demand and protest.

In a dictatorship, the military elite are almost completely unaccountable, and when civilians want change, it usually ends with abdication of powers rather than transition, and certainly not reform or improvement. The systems in the US, in Britain and elsewhere are working and provide political stability because they are excellently designed to allow for people to influence power, and for that power to be checked by different structures of governance to provide stability and to leave no possibility of a single tyranny running the show. A military dictatorship is a total tyranny, completely unaccountable, it damages civilian authority and makes things worse in the long run and at best is only suspends progress that eventually needs to be made. In Britain, there was a civil war that lead to parliamentary sovereignty being established. And now that sovereignty and supreme executive power is what provides stability.

In the past 2-3 years I had become more optimistic about Pakistan's future, a military dictatorship would throw that confidence back to zero. If it happens, it will throw the clock back to the start, and I promise you, when the military then leaves, and incompetent civilian leadership ensues, me and you will be back on this forum discussing how nothing was achieved in the past few years or decades, and then we can decide what came first the chicken or the egg, i.e what came first poor civilian system or militarily dictatorships that have never allowed enough time or power for a civilian system to be established. Every other country has got a working system, even the Indians have figured it out, why can't we?

 

[That Guy]

I am sorry but this law against PA is just simply not acceptable in Pakistan. As you already know Pakistan is only rule by those who work for foreign agenda & their true faces have been exposed completely in these few days that for whom they are taking orders from. The recent amendment in the constitution is a clear proof of it.

PA under this law if implemented will be destroyed completely & will become something equal to Punjab or Sindh police. Keep in mind that US & other powers had tried to destroy ISI in the past, today the same tactics have been applied against PA which is to destroy them completely.

George Bush or the congressman said, that Pakistan does not need a Army but they should have a uniformed police. So now you can connect the dots that how these bastards are desperate to harm Pakistan.

Nothing you've said is even remotely true. It's nothing more than delusion.

Let's see. The judiciary has been ridiculed in public. It can't charge the culprits with contempt of court. The supreme Court of the country has sent summons which are being trampled by the culprits. Opposition? PPP MQM ANP and Nawaz League are all in cahoots. They have agents within PTI as well. The system is being held hostage because in the fear that if they aren't charged with corruption, they could cry fowl. Meanwhile, they are consistently emptying the nation's Treasury. Billions of dollars of losns have been taken in the past few months, something unprecedented in the history of the nation.

The supreme court has literally disqualified a sitting PM, because he refused to write a letter.

A lot of the reason why the political parties can act so flagrant is because they have lawyers that can work within the law.

As for making fun of the judiciary in public, so what? It really doesn't mean anything.