Neo-Indus nationalism does not work

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

But ours has had a staggering number of them since it's inception. Not only that, but they're not really migrants in the first place since they helped found Pakistan (e.g Jinnah's family came from Gujarat).

They migrated and adopted the identity of Pakistani, however that independent identity always existed. Pakistan is just a modern, Islamic iteration of it.

Our previous identity was sometimes Afghan, Persian, Greek, Irani, Arab, Turk, Mongol depending upon our state.

 

[Hamza913]

however that independent identity always existed.

No it hasn't.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

1971 was a seminal event in South Asia. It in one blunderbus shot destroyed the idea of Two Nation Theory and the idea of One Nation Theory. Bangladesh's existence serves to remind us there are two Muslim majority states in South Asia and that more then religion infoms them or else there would have been no Bangladesh. Thus it undoes 2NT.

On the other hand Bangladesh did not become part of India. This undoes the idea of 1NT. Because Bangladesh today as evolved into a solid nation state distinct from India. If the Indian contention that 1947 event was artificial and a horrible aberration carried any currency Bangladesh would have integrated into India in 1971. That did not happen. This kills te idea of One Nation Theory stone dead.

What does Pakistan and Bangladesh tell us? Look at them. Both are Muslim. Yet they are differant? Why? Because one is Muslim tapestry woven over the Indus Valley canvas. The other Muslim tapestry resting on the Bengal Delta. two differant histories. Two differant geographies. Two differant ethnic amalgams.

Great post. This is the right answer.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Well, their objection is a valid one. Their very existence shatters your idea of Pakistan being a country for the people of the Indus.

Tell me. The existence of 1 million Pakistani's, 1.5 million Indians and millions of others in UK shatter the idea of Britishness? And the existence of millions of Christian, Hindu etc in Pakistan shatter the idea of your Pakistan?

 

[Hamza913]

Tell me. The existence of 1 million Pakistani's, 1.5 million Indians and millions of others in UK shatter the idea of Britishness?

No, because:

1. They make up nowhere near as large a percentage of the UK as Indian migrants do for Pakistan.
2. Britain doesn't claim to be an ethno-state.

 

[Nilgiri]

My bet is on janab Indus Pak.

You should bet on me....I am M. Bison ...I just watching now tho.

 

[VCheng]

The most difficult thing for a Pakistani to recognise and to acknowledge is the true foundation of Pakistan. That is why we keep stumbling into these raging feuds over the nature of Pakistan. While these feuds are numerous, one of them is between the older concept of a creation for the safe haven of the Muslims of the sub-continent, intended to allow them to lead their own distinctive life-style and their religion, and the newer concept of a creation put together of an existing region distinct from the rest of India that had been distinct from time immemorial.

The newer concept is a fabrication contrived in response to the death of the older concept in 1971, and is destined to flounder as it is nothing more than a smokescreen pretending to be a foundation for a national concept.

Sad to see it come to this, really, not that we haven't tried other experiments: Bhutto's Islamic Summit and dreams of Ummah leadership, Zia's Jihadism and Arabism, Musharraf's so-called Enlightened Moderation, and now Back-to-the-future Riasat-e-Madina. All fantastic flops, and the same will happen with this Pakistan-as-successor-to-IVC claptrap.

A nation lives in the hope that something might stick around, but it just does not work that way at all.

 

[Yankee-stani]

All nations have migrants. Some of them join extreme anti-national groups [MQM], while others become fiercely loyal [PTI]. Look at Turkey and the Greeks, Armenians, Arabs, Kurds, and others who absorbed the Turkish identity.

Turkey's minorities exception with the Kurds have all common cultural traits, Greeks,Georgians,Laz,Circassians, Armenians, and to extent Turkified Arabs but the mass migration ((multicultural)) crap pushed by the West since WW2 basically wants everyone to move all over

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

Note that no borders have remained constant. Borders, like sands of time will keep drifting to which way the wind is blowing... Pakistan of today is not what it was in 1947, 1949 or 1971 and as ground realities change so will borders those who were blood relatives and stand proud where they are now may once more live as blood brothers.
Once you dig yourself down the rabbit hole you never see the end and loose perspective. Sometimes you need a break, reorient and get your purpose and perspective straight.

 

[Yankee-stani]

1971 was a seminal event in South Asia. It in one blunderbus shot destroyed the idea of Two Nation Theory and the idea of One Nation Theory. Bangladesh's existence serves to remind us there are two Muslim majority states in South Asia and that more then religion infoms them or else there would have been no Bangladesh. Thus it undoes 2NT.

On the other hand Bangladesh did not become part of India. This undoes the idea of 1NT. Because Bangladesh today as evolved into a solid nation state distinct from India. If the Indian contention that 1947 event was artificial and a horrible aberration carried any currency Bangladesh would have integrated into India in 1971. That did not happen. This kills te idea of One Nation Theory stone dead.

What does Pakistan and Bangladesh tell us? Look at them. Both are Muslim. Yet they are differant? Why? Because one is Muslim tapestry woven over the Indus Valley canvas. The other Muslim tapestry resting on the Bengal Delta. two differant histories. Two differant geographies. Two differant ethnic amalgams.

The folks like Taimur who most probably never left Pakistan or live some ethnic ghetto somewhere in the diaspora have not seen how Bengalis abroad curse Pakistanis man they dont understand even the "moulvi" type of Bengalis hate Pakistanis and Pakistan they will moan and make you feel like you massacare their fishing village in 1971, bursts the whole narrative that the folks in Pakistan had common with the former East Bengal, I dont blame folks like Taimur its the failure of the Govts from 1949 till now with the exception of Ayub Khan who promoted the IVC and Mughal past all lot in his Govt propaganda in the 60s after his stint it was all using religion and ethnic vote banks to keep the masses down and the crap we have now thankfully the thawing and the end of "petro arab oil" lottery" is drying up and more moderate voices from Turkey and Indonesia are draining the Muslim World from these petro Arabs. just need Turks need to rid that hot head Erdogan soon

Pakistan is not merely a concept of Muslim self-rule and independence. Pakistan's identity is much older, the geographical element cannot be totally ruled out. Pakistan has been destined for greatness and the lifeblood of this nation's love for truth and justice lies at our origins (thousands of years before Islamic Madina.)

While India will exhaust itself to no end trying to convince Pakistanis and Kashmiris of our supposed same-ness, we have consistently rejected it. Pakistanis have resisted even the Bangali element, when we were one nation, which was forcing us to normalize with India and Indian-ness.

The ethnic groups inhabiting Pakistan are melding together into one national race and culture, fully infused with Islam, similar to what happened to the Turks of Anatolia and Rumelia. It is the Qudrat of Allah swt and the inheritance of our pious ancestors.

You see before the wonderful Taimur calls me a Libtard or some coconut which I expect him to do the reason we need a coherent identity is we have to counter the Ganga trash and lies that our country is artfecial design or I have heard some Indians call us "British invention" crap like that if we want to make Pakistan away from the Gangas we need to look back get our own history or identity

They migrated and adopted the identity of Pakistani, however that independent identity always existed. Pakistan is just a modern, Islamic iteration of it.

Our previous identity was sometimes Afghan, Persian, Greek, Irani, Arab, Turk, Mongol depending upon our state.

You see what makes South Asia and the region that surrounds Afghanistan compared to West Asia and East Asia it was never homogenous and was invaded all the time with all types of folks moving and mixing in so this is why the Ganga Bhartis and their "Akhanand Bharat" is flawed issue is they got money to lobby,bully academics and media to blast their persepective while we all bicker about who we are and lose time

@Indus Pakistan @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

 

[khanz]

Pakistan has a national identity now, that's why Hindu and Christian soldiers have given their lives for this country, you saying that sacrifice means nothing, is disgraceful IMO.

Don't expect from him this dude wants to turn Pakistan into Syria under ISIS.He hates minorities and has advocated for the destruction of Pakistani culture and history because of Hindu/Buddhist heritage. I am actually wondering if he is even serious or a troll because he is almost too over the top with his fanaticism .
I seem to remember he doesn't know the difference between a museum and a temple with comments in support of the vandalism of ancient artifacts agreeing with the brilliant idea of scratching off the faces of ancient IVC relics and statues in Pakistani museums on the basis that idol worship is not allowed in Islam.
He even got butt hurt because Pakistani Hindus were allowed to celebrate their religion in their own country and implied all of them should be converted.

 

[Hamza913]

The folks like Taimur who most probably never left Pakistan or live some ethnic ghetto somewhere in the diaspora

I'd appreciate it if you didn't try to insult me with such petty accusations.

have not seen how Bengalis abroad curse Pakistanis

I've known plenty of Bengalis and never encountered this.

Don't expect from him this dude wants to turn Pakistan into Syria under ISIS.

I don't know what's sadder, your garbage or the fact that some people actually believe it.

 

[Rafi]

Don't expect from him this dude wants to turn Pakistan into Syria under ISIS.He hates minorities and has advocated for the destruction of Pakistani culture and history because of Hindu/Buddhist heritage. I am actually wondering if he is even serious or a troll because he is almost too over the top with his fanaticism .
I seem to remember he doesn't know the difference between a museum and a temple with comments in support of the vandalism of ancient artifacts agreeing with the brilliant idea of scratching off the faces of ancient IVC relics and statues in Pakistani museums on the basis that idol worship is not allowed in Islam.
He even got butt hurt because Pakistani Hindus were allowed to celebrate their religion in their own country and implied all of them should be converted.

He is a Troll, but idiots like him exist in the real world, all of us people, who love and cherish this land like the Mother that it is, A gift of Allah Almighty, our home, must not allow the mis-guided ones to prevail.

We are winning, this conflict, brick by brick we will create a new citadel, a new haven, and InshaAllah we are well on the way.

 

[Proudpakistaniguy]

@Taimur Khurram Where you reside ?

 

[Joe Shearer]

Where is that damned button for a green tick when one really needs it?

Looks like you're on fire today.

While these two strains of thinking might appear to be unconnected but the reality is, there is direct connection between both. The fact is pre-1947 there existed pre-existing conditions that allowed the idea of "Muslim haven" to take root. And that 'pre-existing conditions' were obtaining in the Indus valley region. Without those 'pre-existing conditions' it would have been interesting to see how ML would have planted their generic Pakistan in some other random region of the Raj. And even if ML had succeeded, for instance by planting their Pakistan in Bihar or Deccan would that Pakistan have been same as the Pakistan we have today? I think a Muslim citadel in Ganga Valley or Deccan would have been entirely differant Pakistan then the Pakistan we have on the Indus Valley because this one is informed by the peoples of that valley.

Going back to the point earlier the Indus region had a differant trajectory to other parts of the Raj and it's geography/history had laid the obtaining conditions for the ML project to take root - well outside from where the impulse was first born.

But. I can see why there is resistence from this very natural idea to mature and take root. The problem is double.

• The religious lobby refuses to accept such a notion as that enters secular notions into the idea of Pakistan and disturbs their rickety "Pakistan Kya Matlab" song. Furthermore it poses danger to them in making them redundant from the political space they have carved in Pakistan.
• The Mohajor community are threatened by this idea. Because it raises questions about why they migrated and reduces their role in the national narrative. Their entire existence and position within Pakistan is premised on and qualified on the idea of Muslim/Hindu being two nations, two distinct peoples. The IVC goes against this idea and endangers their ovesized role in Pakistan. Since this group is very vocal, very organised and in control of most of the media it makes sure that the Indus idea is shredded at every turn and prevented from taking root.

I don't have time to expand on these two streams that converge in their effort to prevent in the evolution of a secular, easy going, accepting of diversity idea of Pakistani nationalism develop. The schizphrenia and rabid hatred for Hindus is natural product of this.

@Joe Shearer