Need to adopt middle course regarding Pakistan Army!!

[SD 10]

To all, we going from one extreme to the other extrem.

We mostly and most of the time have defended army during anti terror operation and their manipulation during past 30-35 years in particular.

Whole army should not be blamesd and we should not use bad words against Army.

Criticise establishment but not the whole army and plz avoid using indecent words against army.

There is always a Army in a country, either yours or another country's.

nopes! That logic of fear from other country for making this army essential doesn`t work anymore!

 

[FuturePAF]

i didnt say china went to war with the soviets.
i said it was not a peaceful time.
i do not call hundreds dead, with hundreds of thousands on both sides on hair trigger, ready to go to open war peaceful. i do not call the soviets preparing and openly threatening to nuke china "peaceful".

it seems in your definition, any conflict that isn't open declared warfare with existence of the nation on the line is called "peaceful".

by that measure, the vietnam war sure was peaceful, the korean was sure was peaceful, the us has been "peaceful" every day since ww2 ended then huh? just dont worry about all the invasions.

ukraine is just sooo peaceful right now isnt it?

I will admit I oversimplified China’s situation. The 1969 conflict had the potential to flare up into a war.

If you re-read my post, I said the Soviet were a “potential existential threat…kept at bay through diplomacy until they collapsed”.

China’s diplomacy , with the Soviets and the Americans helped them see out the Cold War till the Russians were no longer an existential threat.

Sino-Soviet border conflict - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

But this still doesn’t negate my point that pakistan cannot afford to cut its defense spending when India is building up. The only logical option if it is politically possible is to build up the economy; doubling it ASAP, while keeping defense spending the same in absolute dollar amount.

 

[applesauce]

I will admit I oversimplified China’s situation. The 1969 conflict had the potential to flare up into a war.

If you re-read my post, I said the Soviet were a “potential existential threat…kept at bay through diplomacy until they collapsed”.

China’s diplomacy , with the Soviets and the Americans helped them see out the Cold War till the Russians were no longer an existential threat.

Sino-Soviet border conflict - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

But this still doesn’t negate my point that pakistan cannot afford to cut its defense spending when India is building up. The only logical option if it is politically possible is to build up the economy; doubling it ASAP, while keeping defense spending the same in absolute dollar amount.

sure, but again, that is not 60 years, which is what you said in the original post i responded to.

china did not have 60 years in which it could spend on the economy and not worry about the military, or "keep at bay through diplomacy" as you say.

it was not until the 80s that china could decrease military spending and that was a major gamble. prior to that china was a enemy to both the soviets and the us.

China only had "powerful" friends like albania/Yugoslavia/later- serbia, and various nations in africa while facing down the us and the soviets. As such, china had 5 million men in arms and spent over 10% of GNP on the military

Does this paint a picture of peace? you take china's current position as though that was china for all its modern history. and china's current position is only a side effect of the 80s-2000 gamble for growth and what it has already achieved now so that even small amounts spent is massive to all others except the us.

all this comes back to, and shows that pakistan could find the space to grow its economy even while facing india. for one, nukes guarantee india could not and would not try to actually try to destroy pakistan, for fear of nuclear retaliation.

Pakistan has similar number of nukes to india which is entirely different from what china faced.

Pakistan also does not face multiple super powers. Pakistan does not even face 1 superpower as a enemy, pakistan faces a regional power.

in fact Pakistan actively has one major power hoping and helping it develop(china). and another who at least isn't greatly impeding you from doing so ( US).

of course none of this help unless you got a government in place that works towards national unity then development. China had Deng, a old school long march hero with solid control over the military and the government to be able to squeeze military budgets without massive push back. unfortunately in these situations, a strongman might just be needed.

 

[FuturePAF]

sure, but again, that is not 60 years, which is what you said in the original post i responded to.

china did not have 60 years in which it could spend on the economy and not worry about the military, or "keep at bay through diplomacy" as you say.

it was not until the 80s that china could decrease military spending and that was a major gamble. prior to that china was a enemy to both the soviets and the us.

China only had "powerful" friends like albania/Yugoslavia/later- serbia, and various nations in africa while facing down the us and the soviets. As such, china had 5 million men in arms and spent over 10% of GNP on the military

Does this paint a picture of peace? you take china's current position as though that was china for all its modern history. and china's current position is only a side effect of the 80s-2000 gamble for growth and what it has already achieved now so that even small amounts spent is massive to all others except the us.

all this comes back to, and shows that pakistan could find the space to grow its economy even while facing india. for one, nukes guarantee india could not and would not try to actually try to destroy pakistan, for fear of nuclear retaliation.

Pakistan has similar number of nukes to india which is entirely different from what china faced.

Pakistan also does not face multiple super powers. Pakistan does not even face 1 superpower as a enemy, pakistan faces a regional power.

in fact Pakistan actively has one major power hoping and helping it develop(china). and another who at least isn't greatly impeding you from doing so ( US).

of course none of this help unless you got a government in place that works towards national unity then development.

I agree and retract my claim that it was 60 years of relative peace, and more like 20-30 years.

I still don’t agree that defense cuts are wise at this juncture and there are other things that should’ve looked at first, but agree that it all comes down to a government being in place that focused on national unity and development.

 

[imadul]

Of course, damage has been done.
Mir bajwa is responsible and us also who were just blind.

In the words of a retired Brigadier living in Naperville, IL, and whom I've known for close to a decade his words were, "the damage has been done." The military will not be held in the same status it enjoyed before.

Of course, damage has been done.
Mir bajwa and his gang responsible and us also who were just blind few months back.

 

[Enigma SIG]

To all, we going from one extreme to the other extrem.

We mostly and most of the time have defended army during anti terror operation and their manipulation during past 30-35 years in particular.

Whole army should not be blamesd and we should not use bad words against Army.

Criticise establishment but not the whole army and plz avoid using indecent words against army.

There is always a Army in a country, either yours or another country's.

Bhai ka FIRMWARE update hogia hai

 

[firohot4321]

So Pakistan needs to double the size of the economy’s because the military danger isn’t going away. China was basically in a period of peace for most of the last 60 years. Pakistan has a neighbor looking to invade it any day now, if it gets the chance or senses an opening.

Pakistan needs a plan to raise taxes in a way that incentivizes productive development and limits unproductive consumption, as well as makes the reforms to attract FDI, all in hopes of at least doubling the economy in the next 5-10 years, and maintain the defense spending at its current the level.

Ispr should also stop making 2 billion rs songs

And permission for CSD and gnrl to import electronic to cars on tax exemptions be withdrawn

 

[Kambojaric]

One could argue that because we were always told to blindly love the army, now when its flaws are being exposed the reaction is especially hurtful. In that context the current outpouring is understandable and also a potent reminder to those higher up that lies eventually catch up with you no matter who you are. I am no PTI-supporter (or of any party) but one positive outcome of this whole scenario has been that the rabbit is out of the hat. The establishment is learning the bitter truth that in the age of social media, using the tactics of the 20th century is no longer possible.

With that said I am sure that barring a few, most people do not harbor ill will towards the common soldier and lesser officers. The ball is now in the senior leaderships court. The army as an institution still has a chance to recover if they make the correct choices moving forward. Genuinely stop interfering and with time things can become better.

 

[fitpOsitive]

To all, we going from one extreme to the other extrem.

We mostly and most of the time have defended army during anti terror operation and their manipulation during past 30-35 years in particular.

Whole army should not be blamesd and we should not use bad words against Army.

Criticise establishment but not the whole army and plz avoid using indecent words against army.

There is always a Army in a country, either yours or another country's.

I dont know when will people of Pakistan learn that we are all the same. Few are more corrupt than the others, but we all support corruption. Army is just one such example. Police, phal faroosh, doctors, teachers, govt offices and officers, Judiciary, you name it. All of them behave in the same way.
Pakistan doesn't need political change, Pakistan needs ethical change and strict just system and sense of justice.

 

[VCheng]

One could argue that because we were always told to blindly love the army, now when its flaws are being exposed the reaction is especially hurtful. In that context the current outpouring is understandable and also a potent reminder to those higher up that lies eventually catch up with you no matter who you are. I am no PTI-supporter (or of any party) but one positive outcome of this whole scenario has been that the rabbit is out of the hat. The establishment is learning the bitter truth that in the age of social media, using the tactics of the 20th century is no longer possible.

With that said I am sure that barring a few, most people do not harbor ill will towards the common soldier and lesser officers. The ball is now in the senior leaderships court. The army as an institution still has a chance to recover if they make the correct choices moving forward. Genuinely stop interfering and with time things can become better.

And the rabbit will go back into the hat soon enough, please rest assured. It comes out periodically only to go back, ready for the next show.

 

[Ghazwa-e-Hind]

To all, we going from one extreme to the other extrem.

We mostly and most of the time have defended army during anti terror operation and their manipulation during past 30-35 years in particular.

Whole army should not be blamesd and we should not use bad words against Army.

Criticise establishment but not the whole army and plz avoid using indecent words against army.

There is always a Army in a country, either yours or another country's.

I was in same boat as you. I too was drinking middle ground koolaid...not anymore.

Then I realized the establishment creates problem first, then provides solution to appear as a savior. Example: Swat, Karachi halaat, Balochistan etc.

But then again, the red line was crossed, a patriotic leader (IK) with majority seats in National assembly is treated as a traitor, has terrorism case registered on him, Arshad Shareef assassinated, senator Azam Swati tortured, electric shocks on Shahbaz Gill private parts, video leaks and so on.

The establishment is there for themselves, they think that ordinary civilians are insects yet keep expecting economic heavy lifting (taxes) from same insects. They have a history of intended-blunders (for $). Example: Reko Diq, Tharcoal, Rental power plants etc.

There's is no progress without justice and accountability. Kufr ka nizaam chal sakta hai, magar zulm ka nahi.

 

[maverick1977]

To all, we going from one extreme to the other extrem.

We mostly and most of the time have defended army during anti terror operation and their manipulation during past 30-35 years in particular.

Whole army should not be blamesd and we should not use bad words against Army.

Criticise establishment but not the whole army and plz avoid using indecent words against army.

There is always a Army in a country, either yours or another country's.

Sorry, no one is saying anything to army. we are destroying the corrupt Establishment, head 8 to 12 honchos who have destroyed Pakistan in the last 70+ years. They are sold out from the time of Ayub and are money hungry pigs.

 

[FuturePAF]

Ispr should also stop making 2 billion rs songs

And permission for CSD and gnrl to import electronic to cars on tax exemptions be withdrawn

I’m not gonna tell them how to do their job, within their defined roles, but i would hope they could find a way to spin off some of these ventures and partner with investors to make them sustainable independent commercial entities. At which point many in a revitalized media industry could provide products, similar to how Top Gun was made.

I won’t speak to the tax exemptions, as it may be part of certain perks to retain talent.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

If You Have friends in the Army you would know how they all feel about this fiasco. There is genuine anger among them of the cluster Fcuk High Command has created. But at the same time you cant expect them to go against the chain of Command. They have and will put more pressure on their Commanders and it will result in Changes.

But Expecting them to do something drastic and break the chain of Command and will be disastrous and its repercussions would be inevitable. A mistake was made in 1958 and we are still seeing its effects even know. If a junior today kills his commander or attempts a Coup then that day wont be far behind when even Captains would be successfully throwing Governments.

What IK has been Doing is doing is very sensible (Whether you agree with him or not i still think he is being soft) he is building up pressure and that pressure seems to be working. Lets wait and see what Tomorrow brings as there is light at the end of every tunnel.

 

[TheSolution]

If You Have friends in the Army you would know how they all feel about this fiasco. There is genuine anger among them of the cluster Fcuk High Command has created. But at the same time you cant expect them to go against the chain of Command. They have and will put more pressure on their Commanders and it will result in Changes.

But Expecting them to do something drastic and break the chain of Command and will be disastrous and its repercussions would be inevitable. A mistake was made in 1958 and we are still seeing its effects even know. If a junior today kills his commander or attempts a Coup then that day wont be far behind when even Captains would be successfully throwing Governments.

What IK has been Doing is doing is very sensible (Whether you agree with him or not i still think he is being soft) he is building up pressure and that pressure seems to be working. Lets wait and see what Tomorrow brings as there is light at the end of every tunnel.

Agreed. Even if rapid concrete changes aren't being made, the pressure being applied is forcing them to adjust accordingly

They know people want development and competency, with no corrupt chors, and if they want to keep their fancy perks they need to at least show something productive for it.

Which is a step in the right direction...