NATO's Shame - NATO Aware it was Firing at Pakistani Troops

[VelocuR]

Nope they wont find Ayub and China has great strategic intersts in Pak. Kayani knows he holds some key cards. Lets hope im right and he is a patriot

Great article and very appreciated to read. I like this point in bold parts

"Kiyani is far from the jovial Sandhurst-trained general Ayub Khan was, who was fond of his drink and all good things in life and was used to obeying orders. "

The most important difference between 1958 and 2011, however, is, firstly, that Kiani's "nativist traditions" require him to act within the collegium of corps commanders who are acutely conscious of the mood within the armed forces, which is that Pakistan should shake off the albatross that was hung around its neck in late 2001.

Second, the Pakistani army is taking great and meticulous care that while traversing the shark-infested waters in the months ahead, it holds the hands of the country's civilian leadership at every stage, every moment.

---------------------------

Agnostic a little off topic but please tell me why do people pull their noses up on the forum when an article is put up on forum from RT or Press, I mean bbc and american papers lie all the time but people esp some indians give so much more cred to western press when we know that they have treated facts as an extra option to be dispensed when suitable

You know what i say- Click here

 

[lem34]

No, these countries (Libya and Iraq) are threatened because they change currency dollar to EURO on oil prices. US invaded these countries for this reasons. Afghanistan is another goals for US interests.

Let's finish discussion off-topics.

self delete. sorry was gonna go of topic

 

[VelocuR]

 

[Developereo]

What are you going to do with the recorded communication?

We could provide them as evidence of our narrative. Voice print identification can confirm the NATO personnel. However, I now realize military communications are over radio, not regular phone lines, so maybe it is not reasonable to expect them to be recorded.

 

[Developereo]

I agree with MastanKhan's assessment that this was done by some low level racist cowboys. I don't believe the higher up command structure was complicit, although they were duped by falsified 'information' from the low level operatives. Clearly, the chopper crews were fully complicit, and maybe they are the ones who fed the wrong coordinates up the command chain in the first place.

So now the US/NATO command is left to deal with the repercussions of some renegades' actions. It's an open question how widely these renegades represent the mindset of US troops in Afghanistan.

PS. Can we lay off the attacks on VCheng? It's good to have someone playing devil's advocate. The response from NATO and the complicit Western press will make VCheng look like a hardcore Pakistani patriot.

 

[lem34]

I agree with MastanKhan's assessment that this was done by some low level racist cowboys. I don't believe the higher up command structure was complicit, although they were duped by falsified 'information' from the low level operatives. Clearly, the chopper crews were fully complicit, and maybe they are the ones who fed the wrong coordinates up the command chain in the first place.

So now the US/NATO command is left to deal with the repercussions of some renegades' actions. It's an open question how widely these renegades represent the mindset of US troops in Afghanistan.

PS. Can we lay off the attacks on VCheng? It's good to have someone playing devil's advocate. The response from NATO and the complicit Western press will make VCheng look like a hardcore Pakistani patriot.

im not so sure, the attack lasted for a considerable amount of time. Cowboys i could accept spur of the moment but an attack that lasted in the region of two hours, on two posts? there would have to be several levels of cowboys including officers-no sir-and as far as cheng goes Im normally quite chilled out about people expressing a different opinion but what i find distasteful and akin to trolling is when he starts a post 1 he makes a point A and then lets say I rebutt his point A then he will put another couple of valid points once again you rebutt him a few times. After about 30 posts over a few days when other people have added posts he then reverts his first post . its this circular dishonesty which makes a mockery of debate that I dont like. Its insulting and a slightly sopisticated version of trolling. Please check some of his threads and posts and you will see that what i say it is true.

Dev if you could be so kind I would like your input or comment on the article I put up in post 96 bo this thread

 

[Developereo]

But the crux of the matter is that the Obama administration has once again ceded policy to the Pentagon.

I don't agree. The American foreign policy is very much driven by civilian neocons. The Democrats have their own versions of Wolfowitz, Perle and Rumsfeld. The faces may have changed, but the policy of Iran/China containment and Indian support remains unchanged.

the US is sticking to the "fight-talk" approach, which is to go on fighting while exploring the scope for opening talks with a militarily degraded Taliban from a position of strength.

The Taliban have long since become irrelevant. If the US wanted, they could obliterate the Taliban in no time. The WOT is just a front for US regional presence. A few dead American soldiers in the WOT is an acceptable price to maintain the cover story.

Two, the US is not willing to concede a central role for Pakistan in the peace talks and is non-committal about Pakistan's wish to have a "friendly" government in Kabul, because it seeks to choreograph a settlement that first and foremost would meet the needs of its regional strategies.

This is as close as Mr. Bhadrakumar, an Indian, will come to acknowledging US support for Indian hegemony at Pakistan's expense. I am surprised he even went this far.

Three, paradoxical as it may seem, the continued fighting actually suits the US in the coming period, because it not only provides the justification for the long-term deployment of combat troops in Afghanistan despite regional (and Afghan) opposition but also gives the raison d'etre for the Northern Distribution Network (read US-NATO military presence in Central Asia), which Russia is showing signs of linking to the resolution of the dispute over the US's missile defense system and the dissipation of the US-Russia "reset".

Maybe I am not reading it right, but this paragraph seems self-contradictory. The NDN is Russia's leverage over the US, so why would the US welcome a situation that prolongs that Russian leverage?

the US hopes to "box in" Iran militarily from the Persian Gulf on one side and Afghanistan on the other.

Pakistanis are finally beginning to realize America's nefarious aim for the region and Pakistan. How long will it take to realize that the oil sheiks are America's partners in this scheme and they both view Pakistan as dispensable?

Pakistani elites eventually buckle under American pressure.

Yup. It's only a matter of time.

 

[Developereo]

The Taliban have long since become irrelevant. If the US wanted, they could obliterate the Taliban in no time. The WOT is just a front for US regional presence. A few dead American soldiers in the WOT is an acceptable price to maintain the cover story.

To expand on this, I divide the American military into three groups:
- the (neocon) policymakers at the top
- the occasional racist rambos in the ranks
- ordinary patriotic Americans who are just serving their country

I believe this last group is paying the price for the crimes of the other two groups, just like Pakistanis are paying the price.

 

[BATMAN]

Well, i don't think..... that forensic investigation, apply very much in subject case!
Following too much into voice recordings is not mandatory for the institutional reports and verdicts, but it can work as media masala.

I think it is a simple case of comparing the outcome with set SOPs, what your radar read as red & individual training.

While we look at the incident there is nothing right to be found and when we look at the followup attitude of US senate, it tells that its not a simple military goof-up.

By blocking outstanding reimbursements (valued $3.2 billion) officially states why those were delayed on the first place.
Apparently US had never considered Pakistan as coalition partner... and the agreements just proved to be written on toilet papers.

Point is ...... US policy on this matter had never been so clear, but their foreign office not necessarily be propagating same on Pakistan's local media.
I see lot of unofficial soft talking (as before) from US foreign officials in Pakistan media but covertly they will continue building anti Pakistan alliance in and around Pakistan.

So what tools Pakistan has got?
1-Hold on to traitors like Haqqani, Rehman Malik, Zardari, Gilani etc.
2-Next, seal the Afghan border by all means... and transits.

 

[MastanKhan]

To expand on this, I divide the American military into three groups:
- the (neocon) policymakers at the top
- the occasional racist rambos in the ranks
- ordinary patriotic Americans who are just serving their country

I believe this last group is paying the price for the crimes of the other two groups, just like Pakistanis are paying the price.

Hi,

The last group pays the price everywhere---in every nation---the scums always walk free.

 

[MastanKhan]

You are missing the point. There almost 200 countries. Why USA and Nato attacked Irag, afghan, Libya? They are dictators and oppressor regime in those countries.

Hi,

So is india in kashmir----should nato strike india----how about zimbabwe---how about north korea.

 

[Luftwaffe]

Hi,

So is india in kashmir----should nato strike india----how about zimbabwe---how about north korea.

US had a bad memory in Afrika and their bu.tt were saved by Pakistani UN Forces in Somalia, so naturally US keeps away from conflicts that whoop theirs.

 

[lem34]

To expand on this, I divide the American military into three groups:
- the (neocon) policymakers at the top
- the occasional racist rambos in the ranks
- ordinary patriotic Americans who are just serving their country

I believe this last group is paying the price for the crimes of the other two groups, just like Pakistanis are paying the price.

thank you for those comments. I was wandering do you think it is a 1958 ayub moment. do you really believe that pakistan will buckle again? I mean as the article states it must have surprised americans that pakistan stuck to their guns on shamsi base and also have not still opened access routes.

I think that what has really wound up pakistani establishment is the open and implied insult to be added to the injury. I think gillani and others have made public statements that should a public appology be forthcoming from Obama they may have been a bit amenable. Obama wont appologise cos he will be seen back home as appeasing pakistanis which he doesnt want to with an election round the corner.

 

[Windjammer]

There is a lot of talk on the airwaves that Panetta may have sanctioned this operation which i would term as mass murder.
Suggestion is that, emboldened after the OBL raid, he thought by attacking and killing the Pakistani soldiers, will force Pakistan to buckle under US pressure, hence the Americans would be able to dictate all to their own liking..... little did he realized how badly it would back fire and lose any leverage America once enjoyed.

 

[Safriz]

all parties conference in lahore today.

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