NATO Summit: Pakistan Offers No Quarter

[lem34]

Aryan,

Its too early to conclude anything. I fear what looks likes Pakistan's diplomatic victory, may turn out to be completely opposite of it. Therefore we must not start celebrating yet. Let the smoke disappear and then we shall see who comes out as a winner.

Even if Pakistan manages to get all its demands accepted by NATO and US, let me assure you that they will come back harder in one way or the other.

I hear what you say and I agree we need to be cautious. However after suffering all the indignities that we have had to bear since 2006-7 since these psyc-ops destabalisation of Pakistan started by Americans this sixth month closure of routes seems like a victory especially when many were suggesting that Pakistan would cave in within a matter of weeks

 

[airmarshal]

The consensus has evolved in Pakistan that it does not want to be part of this war or coalition anymore. So if they want to use our resources - our land routes or our military in counter insurgency operations, they better pay for it.

Pakistan cannot be isolated. Its geographical location in context of this war is pivotal. It plays a key part whether it is in this useless coalition or not. Pakistan will always be part of the solution of Afghanistan problem. Regional countries like India want to diminish or replace Pakistan in Afghanistan war but that will never happen.

Pakistan as a country has suffered a lot in a war that was not theirs and started on a false pretext. It continues to suffer and get the bad press despite sincere efforts on its part. So it would be very wise to be not part of this alliance anymore and chart out its own path.

Just look at what happened now. After closing the supply lines, isn't the alliance of most advanced military powers seeking to restore it through threats or cajoling? Pakistan should know its strengths and assert more effectively.

NATO supplies in my opinion must never be restored.

 

[VCheng]

...........
This the US game plan, stare, glare, scare... See when we blink. ...............

So where is the resolve to say "See IF we blink..." rather than "See WHEN we blink..."; this is quite telling too.

The real sad part is that the basis of the whole relationship going forward has been reduced to dollars-and-cents transactions while countries to either side of Pakistan will benefit from longer strategic partnerships internationally. It does not bode well for Pakistan in this aspect. A few extra billions cannot make up for that loss.

 

[lem34]

The real sad part is that the basis of the whole relationship going forward has been reduced to dollars-and-cents transactions while countries to either side of Pakistan will benefit from longer strategic partnerships internationally. It does not bode well for Pakistan in this aspect. A few extra billions cannot make up for that loss.

Mate you along with others what are you on. American regime can never be a true friend of Pakistan's unless we side with Israelis. AIPAC controls American policy. They saw us as a pawn since 2nd world war. Soon as Soviet threat subsided they dumped us unceremoniously and imposed sanctions. Then next it was sept 20o1 they engaged us. Even then they supported a dictator and when Mush would only go so far they sold us to a deal between Mush and BB.

Equally we are always reminded by you that sentimentality has no part to play. How can we be strategic partners with someone that has chosen India as their strategic partner. You want us to beg them to make us their partners?????????

In fact it would be great for our leaders to trust our people and listen to them when they do not want to deal with American unjust terms

Anyway back on topic Americans and their supporters thought routes would reopen within weeks. How disappointing for them.

 

[Rafael]

afraid?
arent you?
they are humans not gods..thats for sure...
they too lose some and win some..

I'm not afraid of them. I fear that our own leaders and generals will sell us once again like they have done so many times before.

What if our government or GHQ agree to open supplies in return of few billions or brand new F16s? How would you people face the Americans and the Indians on this very board? I just warn you to be cautious and let the things become more transparent.

 

[illusion8]

Mate you along with others what are you on. American regime can never be a true friend of Pakistan's unless we side with Israelis. AIPAC controls American policy. They saw us as a pawn since 2nd world war. Soon as Soviet threat subsided they dumped us unceremoniously and imposed sanctions. Then next it was sept 20o1 they engaged us. Even then they supported a dictator and when Mush would only go so far they sold us to a deal between Mush and BB.

Equally we are always reminded by you that sentimentality has no part to play. How can we be strategic partners with someone that has chosen India as their strategic partner. You want us to beg them to make us their partners?????????

In fact it would be great for our leaders to trust our people and listen to them when they do not want to deal with American unjust terms

Anyway back on topic Americans and their supporters thought routes would reopen within weeks. How disappointing for them.

A bit late in the day, but good to see people realizing it, wish your leaders realize it too.

 

[VCheng]

I'm not afraid of them. I fear that our own leaders and generals will sell us once again like they have done so many times before.

What if our government or GHQ agree to open supplies in return of few billions or brand new F16s? How would you people face the Americans and the Indians on this very board? I just warn you to be cautious and let the things become more transparent.

All arrangements agreed upon already, or soon to be finalized, will soon be evident. Any extra billions till 2014 will run out quickly given the state of the Pakistani economy, and what comes after that is likely not going to be pretty, unless Pakistan leverages any remaining advantages, without the supply route "trump card", to good effect.

 

[lem34]

I'm not afraid of them. I fear that our own leaders and generals will sell us once again like they have done so many times before.

What if our government or GHQ agree to open supplies in return of few billions or brand new F16s? How would you people face the Americans and the Indians on this very board? I just warn you to be cautious and let the things become more transparent.

forgive me and allow me to go slightly off topic.

There are 4 countries red lines who American interests threatens time and time again, China Russia Pakistan and Iran. It does not matter what system theocratic democracy communism these countries have. It matters little to be honest who is in power in these countries the combination of American designs in our neighbourhood and these countries interests will continue to converge. If India can be weaned off America they too could come in (though I think unlikely) Turks could play a pivot role.

Zardari is not great leader he has been forced by circumstances to have resolve. A great leader is one who swims with the tide of inevitability.

SCO will develop in time as a counterwheight to Nato.

 

[Windjammer]

LoL since that is what you canbring up then I must say it is truly Pakistani textbook stuff bro. I sympathize my man Has to be true without question. What concern is the origin then!
Lions led bylambs it is then. LoL it was earlier the favorite marde monin reference to Pakistani army officers and generals someone tells me.

Lol, hope you have the comprehension to distinguish between a text book narrative and some political party manifesto ....a text book may enlighten you with the mis-adventures of Ned Kelly but it certainly wouldn't contain a single paragraph on say Marar Desai's nasty habits, hence consider it an epic fail of your assumptions. A fine line exists between digestion and digression, even if one can expect laurels and praise bestowed upon some one deserving but a certain mindset is never willing to accept it.
Wonder who ever said curiosity killed the cat, but since it's got the best of you, you my find the answer to your heart's content in this very forum.

 

[iPhone]

So where is the resolve to say "See IF we blink..." rather than "See WHEN we blink..."; this is quite telling too.

The real sad part is that the basis of the whole relationship going forward has been reduced to dollars-and-cents transactions while countries to either side of Pakistan will benefit from longer strategic partnerships internationally. It does not bode well for Pakistan in this aspect. A few extra billions cannot make up for that loss.

see the thing is that you along with the rest of indian troll fest here were mentally prepared for the supply routes to be opened at a throw of few measely bucks. The lynching you would have given to Pak then would have been along the lines of, ghairat blinded fools, emotional, greedy and not farsighted etcetra etcetra.

Now things haven't gone according to your expectations. So it's this now. Basically it's a damned if you do and damned if you dont kind of scanario with you guys.

Do you have a source for the central Asian route fee's?

That would be useful information.

Anyway, much of this seems too little to late, these guys have only gotten their act together when the knife is on their throat.

the representatives of the foreign office along with some other from PPP administration were on tv all day today. They discussed these numbers and why the figure of 5000 per container was chosen.

 

[VCheng]

see the thing is that you along with the rest of indian troll fest here were mentally prepared for the supply routes to be opened at a throw of few measely bucks. The lynching you would have given to Pak then would have been along the lines of, ghairat blinded fools, emotional, greedy and not farsighted etcetra etcetra.

Now things haven't gone according to your expectations. So it's this now. Basically it's a damned if you do and damned if you dont kind of scanario with you guys......................

You really should try and comprehend this excellent post:

The disagreement on Pakistan's stance has as much to do with leverage as it does with right or wrong. Negotiations take place on a playing field leveled based on the underlying leverage of each party; thanks to your real world experience, I'm sure you'd understand this better than me.

The problem is the position of the USA is one of want, not need. The Americans, as the premier superpower have endless routes to choose from and can strong arm a whole host of nations to let them funnel in supplies. They insist on using the Pakistani route, because it is cheaper, not because it is the only route. There in lies the problem, the Americans can easily switch routes at a cost that will be irrelevant in what has now become a trillion dollar adventure over the last decade.

The fact that they haven't speaks to their confidence that they hold enough of the cards to pressure Pakistan into eventually giving in; were this to not take place, they can just as easily use that to their advantage. By constantly refusing to let supplies through, Pakistan is playing into the perception of a nation that is unwilling to help, and at worst, standing in the way of the fight against extremism and terrorism. While you and me agree that is largely unfair and incredibly biased; as the foremost military and media power, the American opinion and spin carries far more weight. By using Pakistan's position to incriminate itself, the US is doing far more damage to the Pakistani position from a political as well as an economic standpoint.

While we may disagree on the correct way to go about this, I fear the worst case scenario for Pakistan in this negotiation is far worse than the one faced by the Americans. If we lose this time, we may have just sacrificed the long term prosperity and strategic relevance of our nation. If the Americans come out on the bottom, they will simply swallow the loss of a few extra billion and find another way...or my greatest worry, become far more aggressive in enforcing their will on Pakistan. The unfortunately reality is that no one has the ability to withstand the true force of American aggression, the paranoia of which was enough to destroy the USSR.

It is not a matter for "you guys", but Pakistan itself runs a great risk of being "damned if they do and damned if they don't kind of scenario" if it does not change its policies, and soon.

 

[lem34]

You really should try and comprehend this excellent post:



It is not a matter for "you guys", but Pakistan itself runs a great risk of being "damned if they do and damned if they don't kind of scenario" if it does not change its policies, and soon.

But Pakistan have been damned for the last 3 or 4 years. Americans have been abusing Pakistani assistance. It is they who are damned if they do and damned if they don't not Pakistan

 

[PakiRambo]

This is all propaganda, and the only reason Zardari is doing this is to rack up election votes.

Don't be fooled by this guy!

Tomorrow, he'll go back to his normal self again.

 

[lem34]

This is all propaganda, and the only reason Zardari is doing this is to rack up election votes.

Don't be fooled by this guy!

Zardari is doing squat. He is being manipulated left right and centre

 

[VCheng]

But Pakistan have been damned for the last 3 or 4 years. Americans have been abusing Pakistani assistance. It is they who are damned if they do and damned if they don't not Pakistan

Did you even read, let alone comprehend this post I quoted earlier?

The disagreement on Pakistan's stance has as much to do with leverage as it does with right or wrong. Negotiations take place on a playing field leveled based on the underlying leverage of each party; thanks to your real world experience, I'm sure you'd understand this better than me.

The problem is the position of the USA is one of want, not need. The Americans, as the premier superpower have endless routes to choose from and can strong arm a whole host of nations to let them funnel in supplies. They insist on using the Pakistani route, because it is cheaper, not because it is the only route. There in lies the problem, the Americans can easily switch routes at a cost that will be irrelevant in what has now become a trillion dollar adventure over the last decade.

The fact that they haven't speaks to their confidence that they hold enough of the cards to pressure Pakistan into eventually giving in; were this to not take place, they can just as easily use that to their advantage. By constantly refusing to let supplies through, Pakistan is playing into the perception of a nation that is unwilling to help, and at worst, standing in the way of the fight against extremism and terrorism. While you and me agree that is largely unfair and incredibly biased; as the foremost military and media power, the American opinion and spin carries far more weight. By using Pakistan's position to incriminate itself, the US is doing far more damage to the Pakistani position from a political as well as an economic standpoint.

While we may disagree on the correct way to go about this, I fear the worst case scenario for Pakistan in this negotiation is far worse than the one faced by the Americans. If we lose this time, we may have just sacrificed the long term prosperity and strategic relevance of our nation. If the Americans come out on the bottom, they will simply swallow the loss of a few extra billion and find another way...or my greatest worry, become far more aggressive in enforcing their will on Pakistan. The unfortunately reality is that no one has the ability to withstand the true force of American aggression, the paranoia of which was enough to destroy the USSR.