National Air Defense Command (NADCOM) - Updates & Discussions.

[Last Hope]

Good news indeed!
But, why four??

 

[abaseen99]

HongQi (HQ) 9 vs Lockheed's Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC 3)
K-Mart vs Lock-Mart, aka CPMIEC's HongQi (HQ) 9 vs Lockheed's Patriot Advanced Capability-3 (PAC 3) for Turkey's $4 billion missile defense system.


I don't think it will be a fair match. However, the fact that PRC is offering their SAM to Turkey, a member of NATO, shows a degree of new found confidence by PRC's defense firm.

Here is a brief background on the HQ-9 system:


HQ-9 is an improved Russian S-300 SAM system with radar guidance incorporated US based technologies (SJ-231), possibly Lockheed’s Patriot’s Track-via-Missile (TvM). The TvM active radar homing guidance allows the HQ-9 to have a limited anti-ballistic missile capability up to 150 km in addition to the traditional anti-aircraft role.


It's naval version, HQ-9A, is currently fielded in PLAN’s Type 052C destroyer and has been spotted in number of Chinese cities included Hong Kong and Shenzhen as a replacement for the older HQ-2 systems.

The HQ-9 version offered to Turkey is likely to be the HQ-9B, an improved version with dual-mode semi-active radar seeker in addition to IR imaging.

 

[maverick1977]

There are different ways of deploying these SAMs.

1) Peace time, during peace time pakistan might wanna keep these SAMS deep into its territory as to avoid its enemy from picking up its radar signals from far away. The reason is, if our enemies pick up the radar signals, they might create counter measures to and eventually pods to blind these radars during hostilities. Pakistan should always be weary of keeping its strategic assessts as secret as possible, so element of surprise can be hammered on our enemies.... keep them guessing. !!!!

2) During war time these batteries can be moved forward as to see and neutrazlie enemy threats before they cross the border. Hence, rendering effective long range defence and creating buffer for our fighters not only by providing air defence, but also by providing support when our package is going across the border for SEAD activities....

3) These SAMs will be primarily used as Anti ballistic missiles, so we can protect our strategic targets like commands and control, airbases and nuclear reactors against potential enemy ballistic threats. if nuclear reators are destroyed then its a huge catastrophe, command and control are gone then Pakistani armed forces are blind. I am very sure they will come into action after detecting that ballisitc missile is going to hit top one priorty target in Pakistan. hence, H18 kicking in....

based on this i am inclined to conclude, HQ18 will be a strategic assesst of Pakistani armed force not a Tactical one.

 

[Chogy]

I may have missed it, but are these frequency agile? How robust is the ECCM?

For every weapon "X", there is a weapon "Y" designed to counter it, like HARM and similar anti-radiation missiles.

 

[Kompromat]

This news will leave IAF 3rd/4th/4.5th generation fleet shivering in their hangers !

4 of these systems , SPADA-2000 , SA-2 and other systems already with PAF will provide a potent defense against the IAF but the question remains on Missile defense !

 

[ANG]

Hi Mr. Black Blood, while these systems are a force multiplier they are not a panacea. The IAF is a very competent air force with access to the latest Israeli/French technology. That means jammers; these SAM systems can be jammed and their radars hit with anti-radiation missiles, which the IAF also has. Take care.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well the SAMs alone can't give you protection

What they could do is still fear in enemy fighters that they not only have to worry about Air to Air BVR missile launches now but they can also be shot down from ground

With out ample airforce planes the SAMs could be targeted by fighter planes belonging to an enemy but since we have almost 500 fighters planned till 2014 that not really our biggest concern

But if we can have availability of at least 4 -8 SAM systems/province allocated for strategic use by army units in all provinces it gives us a good high strategic ground that ok we can place these system any where for usage
What PAKISTAN needs is


Tier 1 : Chinese High Altitude Missile Defence Sheild
Tier 2 : SPADA missiles
Tier 3 : Should be Local Pakistani Models (High Quantities)
Tier 4 : Older generation Missile Options with kill ratio of 60-70%
Tier 5 : Shoulder held missiles for low flying targets
Tier 6 : Atomatic Firing Guns etc , ideally ones from Turkey

What we could also do is we could turn 100 Missiles BVR to be used for F16 into air defence missiles if we can also purchase the land launch batteries for these missiles if we had an alternative option for our F16 , but we did get 500-800 of these missiles so I am sure we could turn 100 of these for usage for air defence from ground units as well its an optiona approach

This really is what we should aim to achive , the chinese missile do fill a big VOID in our defence since perhaps the 70's or even 65 when we started seeing the technological gap emerge per decade vs our other nations of interest

After we have attained the High Altitude Missile defences we will have to focus on our own Missiles for demestic production in larger quantities to be deployed around border areas

Again the question is can the SD-10 also be converted into Groudn to Air mode or not like the American missiles - as shown in the jeep pic above -

But never the less the SD-10 arrival is vital for air to air and - the chinese High Altitude defence is vital four our national defence - from intruding airforces or UAV etc

 

[ANG]

Hi, I never meant it to sound like these are not good systems. I just didn't want everyone to get over confident that is all. Have a 200KM+ high altitude SAM system is an absolute must for the PAF and a huge force and confidence multiplier. I would also like the PAF to be self-sufficient in these systems in due time. Take care.

 

[rockstarIN]

This news will leave IAF 3rd/4th/4.5th generation fleet shivering in their hangers !

4 of these systems , SPADA-2000 , SA-2 and other systems already with PAF will provide a potent defense against the IAF but the question remains on Missile defense !

So far Brahmos is undefeatable

 

[rockstarIN]

It still amazes me that we were without a long range SAM system for long (till date), guess our longest range missile is the age old SA-2.... and now we r considering these beautiful and useful piece of weaponary.... dair aye durust aye

Very less countries in the world have long range SAM systems.

India doesn't have it, the experiments are going on.

 

[rockstarIN]

Hi Mr. Black Blood, while these systems are a force multiplier they are not a panacea. The IAF is a very competent air force with access to the latest Israeli/French technology. That means jammers; these SAM systems can be jammed and their radars hit with anti-radiation missiles, which the IAF also has. Take care.

I, have few questions regarding the procurement of these SAMS,

1) 5th Gen Fighter into IAF inventroy
A SAM system probably take few years to procure and installation, by the time IAF will get PAK-FA/FGFA. Will these SAMs then serve the purpose as Anti-aircraft?

2) High tech Jammers and Anti-Radiation missiles

IAF has enough stockpile of good jammers+ anti radiation missiles, Is it a good option once IAF got the frequency once and make a counter measures?

3)Supersonic/Possible Hypersonic Cruise Missiles.

India has good amount of cruise missiles which will easily break these systems as its is supersonic and possible hypersonic in future. Also IAF will mount the same in Su-30.

The question is, is it wise to shell out billions to induct such costly systems as there is already a possibility that the enemy has the counter measures or working on it?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well Missile defence is simple Nuclear retaliation because moment the Missile launches will be detected the notion will be that its a nuclear attack coming down -

And that will trigger the ultimate defence

Nuclear armed F16, and Cruise Missiles and Modified Tamahwak missiles from sea , and Nuclear Armed missiles -

It will be more like a knee jerk reaction on missile launch so anynation that fires a missile will be triggering a nuclear war -

But in general a missile can be brought down if you have Awacs - that give you early warning and if you happen to have planes in air

But high quantity is another story which really points back to the frist notion , UNLEASH THE FURY sorta sopeak -

There is a reason why Russia and US don't normally dare launch missiles over each other or even in proximity of each other to trigger an accidental launch becasue you have no way to know if its a normal missile a dud or a nuclear launch

 

[gambit]

One aircraft has been dedicated for jamming..the rest for attack.

Yes.

The whole squadron solely depends on one jamming pod attached to one plane..What if it fails or the enemy radars have countermeasures?

If the enemy has ECCM, then it is a battle between the two EW warriors. Victory will be determined by creativity as well as technology wielded by either side. If the ECM attack aircraft is damaged or even lost in combat, then the group is in danger.

Stand-in ECM is like a shield, designed to initially hide the true number of the attack force. Stand-off ECM is often used to distract. Between two or more ECM aircrafts, we can have 'mutual support jamming' (MSJ) tactic. This tactic required more extensive training for the ECM squadron. Last resort is 'self-screening jamming' (SSJ). This require the aircraft to carry its own ECM weapon, such as a pod, but this demand the attack aircraft to make a sacrifice -- a loss of a hardpoint.

Not sure about the towed decoy..In straight flight,it will work..but if the plane needs to make evasive manoeuvrings or tight turns...The tow may become a hazard and get tangled somewhere....I had seen B-52s video where they launch decoys..But detached decoys...which fly on their own...not towed.

There is only one advantage -- a slight one -- that a towed decoy has over an ejected one and that is the towed decoy has the same airspeed as the parent aircraft, making it more difficult for a radar guided missile to discern the two radar objects. The towed decoy can be ejected if necessary.

 

[Mani2020]

Gambit

i have a question from you regarding ECM pods.

i was going through another forum and came across a comment "China is offering jamming pod with jf-17 this shows that in built ECM capability of jf-17 is not good"

how much there is reality in this statement .do external ECM pod does speak for less capability of in built ECM?

if it is so then our f-16s also carry external jamming pod.does this statement also stand for them?

 

[gambit]

Gambit

i have a question from you regarding ECM pods.

i was going through another forum and came across a comment "China is offering jamming pod with jf-17 this shows that in built ECM capability of jf-17 is not good"

how much there is reality in this statement .do external ECM pod does speak for less capability of in built ECM?

if it is so then our f-16s also carry external jamming pod.does this statement also stand for them?

Electronic CounterMeasures (ECM) is broad and that would include the radar warning receiver (RWR) set. Does the JF-17 has a 'built-in' ECM capability similar to an external ECM pod? I doubt it. We can safely assume that it does have an RWR set. The internal volume space of a fighter is very limited, particularly in the forward fuselage section where the cockpit and the avionics bays resides. For self-screening ECM an external pod is necessary. But even if a fighter aircraft can be fitted with some offensive ECM capability, it would still be considerably less capable than an external pod simply because of size.