Nation’s honor not to be traded for prosperity: Kayani

[Developereo]

Where is the "honor" in a unprosper nation??

and

there is no honour in being poor.

I can't believe you guys wrote this. Surely you don't mean to suggest that poor people have no honor.

 

[Developereo]

we have seen you in RD case...

I thought RD walked after our Saudi 'friends' paid off the families.

 

[Ignited Mind]

and



I can't believe you guys wrote this. Surely you don't mean to suggest that poor people have no honor.

Poor man's honour is to be the rich man's subject.

That's where his honour begins and ends.

 

[Developereo]

Poor man's honour is to be the rich man's subject.

That's where his honour begins and ends.

If you believe that, then there is no point arguing.

We disagree.

It is entirely possible to live a life of self-respect and honor without being materially well off. It is true of individuals and it is true of nations.

Cuba is not rich by any standards and they have been under sanctions forever. Yet they have managed to provide a decent enough standard of living for themselves.

 

[Bang Galore]

Actually there are 'populist consequences' for the institution of the Army from the content of 'speeches'. In the case of Pakistan especially, the military has a lot of influence because so many Pakistanis support it. 'Unpopular content' in a speech can easily reverse opinion about the military.

The army has no business offering itself up as contender in popularity contests, especially against the political parties. In any case, lack of popularity does not result in the CoAS losing his job by the democratic process of election, something that will happen to a politician.

Kayani has made no 'decisions' on this issue - he has offered an opinion in a speech. If Pakistanis support such a position, Kayani, and the institution he leads, will gain more public support. If the public does not support such a position, support for the military will fall. There is nothing stopping the political leadership from implementing policies that are popular amongst Pakistanis. In fact, if anything, the reason Zardari and the PPP are so unpopular currently is because of a perception that they are not implementing policies that most Pakistanis want to see implemented.

So in terms of 'popular pressure through accountability', the PPP can (or should) see that it is paying a price in losing public support through the policies it is implementing, yet it has done very little to change course. The military appears to be acting more in line with 'accountable to the masses' and at least articulating policies that have public support.

The CoAS's job is to work with the government to implement government policy, not to try & undermine elected representatives by offering up populist positions of their own. Let the CoAS resign his job & stand for an election & put his views up for vote by the Pakistani people and we will soon find where he & everyone else stands.

The political leadership has made unpopular decision after unpopular decision, and I have yet to see any major policy position (that is unpopular) forced upon the political leadership by the military.

So the military gets the credit for popular decisions & the government is left holding the baby if decisions backfire? Nice!

 

[Bang Galore]

I can't believe you guys wrote this. Surely you don't mean to suggest that poor people have no honor.

If you believe that, then there is no point arguing.

We disagree.

It is entirely possible to live a life of self-respect and honor without being materially well off. It is true of individuals and it is true of nations.

Cuba is not rich by any standards and they have been under sanctions forever. Yet they have managed to provide a decent enough standard of living for themselves.

Not the point I was making. Seems that you have misconstrued my remark. I was making the point with reference to the particular statement of Gen.Kiyani & was arguing that a false choice was being presented here where people (other than the statement maker) were being asked to make a deliberate choice to remain poor citing a false (imo) loss of honour. These kinds of exhortations are popular only with the middle classes & the rich who never actually have to suffer poverty. Poor people do not have the luxury of making such existential compromises.

(The choice of Cuba to buttress the argument is untenable because Cubans haven't been given that choice to make. It has been imposed on them & one of the results of that has been many Cubans fleeing the country. The leaders make no choice to embrace poverty themselves, only suggesting it for lesser mortals. )

 

[foxbat]

The leaders make no choice to embrace poverty themselves, only suggesting it for lesser mortals. )

On the lines of " You embrace Poverty for my Honor"

 

[Solomon2]

RAWALPINDI: The Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani Saturday asserted that the nation’s honor and integrity will not be traded just in exchange for “prosperity”, Geo News reported.

“What’s in national interest and what’s not is a decision only you Pakistanis have the right to make...we should not let ourselves overcome by frustration and pessimism...We believe in one army, one family and one nation and we will have to rise above personal interests and think for a strong Pakistan”

If this isn't a signal that Kayani is seeking allies for a coup, then what is? We'll see if the civilians have the balls to try to kick him out.

 

[Developereo]

Not the point I was making. Seems that you have misconstrued my remark. I was making the point with reference to the particular statement of Gen.Kiyani & was arguing that a false choice was being presented here where people (other than the statement maker) were being asked to make a deliberate choice to remain poor citing a false (imo) loss of honour. These kinds of exhortations are popular only with the middle classes & the rich who never actually have to suffer poverty. Poor people do not have the luxury of making such existential compromises.

Well, the General was clearly referring to American threats of aid termination if Pakistan refuses to comply with their demands. This aid, or lack thereof, will not affect the poor anyway, since most of the money is siphoned off by the rich middlemen.

(The choice of Cuba to buttress the argument is untenable because Cubans haven't been given that choice to make. It has been imposed on them & one of the results of that has been many Cubans fleeing the country. The leaders make no choice to embrace poverty themselves, only suggesting it for lesser mortals. )

Like I said, Cuba is not a rich country, so people will always want a better life. Even people from Sweden emigrate to the US.

The point was that Cuba manges to provide free education, health care, disability, unemployment and other benefits to its citizens. Many 'rich' countries lack such basic facilities for their citizens.

 

[muse]

Well, the General was clearly referring to American threats of aid termination if Pakistan refuses to comply with their demands

I'm really don't know what he was talking about -- if as you suggest he was talking about relations with the US, let me say, that perhaps the Premier and the President ought to be the ones articulating policy - the armed forces and Kiyani as a representative, must be ahead of the curve, and really the Pakistan Fauj can no longer play a political element in Pakistan it once did -- it's just not possible int he same way it was before, it was a different world, a different Pakistan.

Someone here has asked what is so "honorable" about being poor and underdeveloped? Allow me to add, what is so honorable about preventing prosperity??

The usual suspects who enjoy playing more catholic than the Pope, will come on the scene and as who is preventing the "civilian politicians" from making such a statement - well, what politician wants to suggest that we fore go prosperity to uphold honor? What politician even comes up with that kind of equation?

Is China a model for development? It had better be in Pakistan (and all the world, not just India should support that model) -- Do the Chinese political leadership continue to assert that "it is glorious to be rich" and they do not make these crazy equation that find such currency in among a section of opinion that is essentially at war with modernity and is wedded to a notion of militaristic and violent notion of "honor" - - lets move away from these notions, lets infuse them with values that place the interests of Pakistanis at the forefront, the interests of the armed forces will follow.

So does that mean I am suggesting that we fall in line with US diktat?

Come on, now - why even think in those terms, support for independent policy depends on a strong, read PROSPEROUS, Pakistan - if you want ot be independent of the US and her aid, if you want an end to these petty tyrants running around calling themselves, parliamentarians and democrats, you should be support a prosperous Pakistan - Honor does not exist in poverty, If you enjoy seeing Ghairatmand Pakistan with her begging bowl pretending to seem strong, if you enjoy Pakistanis arguing violently about what is Islam, if you enjoy seeing beheaded Pakistani soldiers and if you enjoy seeing Pakistanis desperate to escape the "Islamic republic" anyway they can, bet on denying Pakistanis prosperity, in the name of honor.

 

[PoKeMon]

I can't believe you guys wrote this. Surely you don't mean to suggest that poor people have no honor.

Certainly not. My comment was in context of what Kayani said and what he is doing to the nation.
Today Pakistan is poor( and you know because of what) and neither she could defend her pride. Losing it on both fronts.
Kayani's statement could be legitimate if he could have been succeeded in keeping nation's pride intact no matter where the prosperity goes. But he fails miserably.

 

[Mutee]

look whose talking I hope you ppl see the irony in that statement

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The army has no business offering itself up as contender in popularity contests, especially against the political parties. In any case, lack of popularity does not result in the CoAS losing his job by the democratic process of election, something that will happen to a politician.

Why shouldn't the Army be a popular institution? And as I pointed out before, there is nothing stopping the politicians from taking 'populist positions' - isn't that what politicians are supposed to be doing? In the context of 'accountable to the public'?

The CoAS's job is to work with the government to implement government policy, not to try & undermine elected representatives by offering up populist positions of their own. Let the CoAS resign his job & stand for an election & put his views up for vote by the Pakistani people and we will soon find where he & everyone else stands.

What is wrong with suggesting that 'prosperity not be at the expense of honor'? It is not a 'policy' that is being articulated, but a more 'philosophical' opinion. Many would find nothing wrong with it - it is in fact something almost every child grows up hearing from his or her parents.

I fail to see how Kayani is 'undermining' elected representatives - they have done that job all by themselves by pursuing unpopular policies.

So the military gets the credit for popular decisions & the government is left holding the baby if decisions backfire? Nice!

Why would you say that? If the GoP decides to implement policies popular amongst Pakistanis and articulates the same publicly, why wouldn't it get credit?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Certainly not. My comment was in context of what Kayani said and what he is doing to the nation.
Today Pakistan is poor( and you know because of what) and neither she could defend her pride. Losing it on both fronts.
Kayani's statement could be legitimate if he could have been succeeded in keeping nation's pride intact no matter where the prosperity goes. But he fails miserably.

How is Kayani 'losing on both fronts'?

Prosperity is not his job, nor does he have any influence over it - he cannot implement economic or governance reforms without a military coup.

Security is his job, and even there, within the limits set by the GoP, and on that count he has done an excellent job - putting in place comprehensive COIN training programs and the requisite infrastructure, along with continued focus on conventional military training and improvements. The Taliban, as dominant organized militia groups, have been essentially eliminated from almost all of FATA and Swat. Outside of NW, the remnants are small cells here and there that are reduced to carrying out terrorist attacks now and then - the latter an issue that is best dealt with by effective local governance and local civilian law enforcement agencies.

With respect to the drone attacks and CIA operations on Pakistani soil, I have already made my arguments in previous posts.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Someone here has asked what is so "honorable" about being poor and underdeveloped? Allow me to add, what is so honorable about preventing prosperity??

Kayani said nothing about 'preventing prosperity', nor has he done anything to 'prevent prosperity'.

The ones 'preventing prosperity' currently are the elected representatives, refusing to implement economic and governance reforms, that could increase Pakistan's revenues by tens of billions of dollars every year and provide a much more effective means of dealing with extremism, terrorism and law and order in general.