Narrowing PAF Gap V IAF by 2015

[Sapper]

Did You ever Know an Aircraft called Rafele, Produced by the Masters of Delta wing took 30+ Years..... a Project Initiated in 1970 was Rafale, ring any Bells???? Making aircraft is Not Easy For the rest of the world, Like it is for Pakistan.... And Tejas has not taken 30 Years, It has taken 27 Years.... Very Less Time I must say

You better not try to defend a failing program by citing the example of another failed/failing platform.

Mirage 3/5/2000 has been the biggest success story of Dassault. More than two dozen airforces proudly owned and operated these extremely capable fighting machines, and still do. But none of them, or anyone else for that matter has upgraded to Rafale YET. Don't get me wrong, Rafale is a very capable platform, an excellent machine, but its success will not even come close to earlier mirage 3/5/2000 models. My thinking is that this partial failure is due to two very simple reasons;
1. Overpriced,
2. Time Over Shoot.
If Rafale would have been available to customers around 2000 with 60 million USD per copy (current money worth, in 2000 around 45 mil USD), it would have sold like candies and sale of gripen39, F16s, EFs, F15s, F18s etc would have been seriously undermined.

Same is the case with LCA,
1. Overpriced; for a domestic plane, it should have cost HAL around 15+-2 million USD per copy (current 2010 money value).
2. The IOC and FOC should have been complete in 2000~2002.

If that were the case, IAF would have already inducted 5~7 LCA blk1 squadrons by now and would be thinking of 5 squadron Blk2 and Blk1-MLU in 2015.

My two cents.

PS: A gentleman asked JF17 production rate. Currently its 2 per month, or 18~24 per year.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[Desi Sher]

You better not try to defend a failing program by citing the example of another failed/failing platform.

Mirage 3/5/2000 has been the biggest success story of Dassault. More than two dozen airforces proudly owned and operated these extremely capable fighting machines, and still do. But none of them, or anyone else for that matter has upgraded to Rafale YET. Don't get me wrong, Rafale is a very capable platform, an excellent machine, but its success will not even come close to earlier mirage 3/5/2000 models. My thinking is that this partial failure is due to two very simple reasons;
1. Overpriced,
2. Time Over Shoot.
If Rafale would have been available to customers around 2000 with 60 million USD per copy (current money worth, in 2000 around 45 mil USD), it would have sold like candies and sale of gripen39, F16s, EFs, F15s, F18s etc would have been seriously undermined.

Same is the case with LCA,
1. Overpriced; for a domestic plane, it should have cost HAL around 15+-2 million USD per copy (current 2010 money value).
2. The IOC and FOC should have been complete in 2000~2002.

If that were the case, IAF would have already inducted 5~7 LCA blk1 squadrons by now and would be thinking of 5 squadron Blk2 and Blk1-MLU in 2015.

My two cents.

PS: A gentle asked JF17 production rate. Currently its 2 per month, or 18~24 per year.

Regards,
Sapper

Gentle man, As I already stated the reason for the delay in its development, Read Post no 126 , also stated the changes done from the very first Flight it took and why.... And If You call Rafale a Failure then Iam sorry I can Only Laugh at Your Ignorance.... And Nothing Comes Cheap, except from China to be frank

 

[chengdusudise]

some indians keep on talking upgrade mig21 with BVR missles and AESA radar.this is hilarious.
1.active radar BVR missle is very expensive,the cost of two such BVR missles will beyond

that of a 30 years old mig21,let alone add a far more expensiver AESA radar in it ,you'd

better to put these expensive toys in a 4G figter or a 5G fighter
2.the agility and maneuverability of mig21 is no way near to a 4G fighter such as F-16,and it is also a very light fighter with pathetic payload. A such plane with two BVR

missle hefting 300 kg will fly like a drunkard.
3.the nose of mig21 is designed to be a air intake ,it has very little room ,even you put a expensive AESA radar in it ,this radar will be too little, thus, it cant utilize the potential of a active radar BVR missles

anyhow ,upgrade 50 years history mig21 with 30 years old airframe by active radar bvr Missles and AESA radar is meaningless and waste money, i bet IAF will not stupid enought to do this

 

[KingOfGods]

Whats the question.....Maybe i might help....

But if you are looking troll v troll.....Then i am out...

No brother...........I am not here for troll. I am mature enough; and I hope you are too. But not everybody; including both Indian and Pakistani.

 

[Sapper]

Gentle man, As I already stated the delay in its development, Read Post no 126 , as I have clearly mentioned why its delay and what are the changes done from the very first Flight it took and why.... And If You call Rafale a Failure then Iam sorry I can Only Laugh at Your Ignorance.... And Nothing Comes Cheap, except from China to be frank

Well Dear,

Ever heard of an industry term called Design Freeze ?
And if you consider Rafale a success story, then i can only wish that you pray for same success for LCA.

You do know what does the word Success mean ? do you.
Btw, i never said LCA/Rafale are failed projects either, they didn't fail completely, atleast not in quality terms. France flies Rafale and has confidence in its potential, in similar fashion, India has confidence in its LCA, and IAF has been arm-twisted into buying them as well. But even after repeated marketing attempts, Rafale has yet to convince a buyer.
The only failure comes in monetary and scheduling dimensions. Apart from that both are good machines for their intended role.


Regards,
Sapper

 

[Desi Sher]

Well Dear,

Ever heard of an industry term called Design Freeze ?
And if you consider Rafale a success story, then i can only wish that you pray for same success for LCA.

You do know what does the word Success mean ? do you.
Btw, i never said LCA/Rafale are failed projects, they didn't fail at all. France flies Rafale and has confidence in its potential, in similar fashion, India has confidence in its LCA, and IAF has been arm-twisted into buying them as well. But even after repeated marketing attempts, Rafale has yet to convince a buyer.

Regards,
Sapper

Rafale might not be a success for the Others, but that dosent mean to be a failure, Rafale suits there Skies and there role.... IAF has not been Arm twisted to buy LCA, if it were to be Like that IAF would have done it in 2000's.... IAF changed the Aircraft from what it was expected to do to what IAF wanted it to do.... Now the IAF is Happy with its development and Hence Ordered.... IAF can not Blindly order, Cabinet committee must approve it aswell, Hence waiting fro the IOC to Increase the Order

Regards

Desi Sher

 

[jha]

So, The thread has fulfilled its intention with which this was started...
Another PAF v/s IAF thread..

 

[notorious_eagle]

1. How much India and Pakistan lack in terms of technology when compared to the US is a matter of debate but my guess would be 20-50 years. Keeping that in perspective and the fact that there havent been any contracts for the avionics and weapons delivery suites shouldn't be putting my estimate of the PRESENT JF-17 being simillar to the F-16 C/D at max.

The world is decades behind the US when it comes to military aviation because only a superpower like the US can come up with the funds and research base to build an airplane like the Raptor. Maybe the Chinese might be able to match them in a decade or two because they are pouring in billions of dollars and hundreds and thousands of Aeronautical Engineers are joining the work force in China every year.

Nobody is saying that the JF17 is equal to the Block 52, but if you look at the JF17's avionics they are comparable to the Block 40. It appears that you haven't been following news or this website regarding the contracts signed for avionics suite and weapons package. Pakistan long ago signed a contract with China regarding joint research in avionics and weapons, along aside that PAF and its necessary agencies are carrying their own research too.

2. Lets not fool ourselves here. Do you really think PAC can develop those systems? Given the levels of incompetence and corruptions that run deep in the heart of your and my country I am quite sure that these so called suites wont be delivered on time and also wont be able to match the performance. I guess it will take a substantial time ( 5 years or so) for any radar or ECM to mature and be effective under various different mission requirements . I can bet my bottom ruppee that if PAC has to develop a mission capable radar comparable to what Russia or US has then it will take more than a decade with the outside help. Without any outside help, I dont think it will be possible even in two decades.

We are not fooling anybody , PAC has in in fact developed those systems with joint ventures or on its own. Look at the avionics of the JF17; fully glassed cockpit, features EFIS, MFD, HUD, Quadruplex FBW, Datalink, DAS, RWR, MAW and HMS. IF you look at it the EW and ECM suites, they are quite deadly. The Radar that JF17 uses is not the basic KLJ7; its an upgraded one with much better detection, resolution and is very resistant to jamming. The Chinese beat their European counterparts strictly on merit, the performance of KLJ7 was superior to those of their counterparts. But you know what the best thing about JF17 is; datalinking , it will be data linked to our ground and airborne radars so good luck dodging that .

Save the lecture of corruption and incompetence for your fellow Indians, we know what the problems are in our country but if you look at the projects our Armed Forces have initiated they always have delivered on time. Look at the JF17, Al Khalid, Al Zarrar etc. All these projects were completed in record time and delivered to the respected division in the Armed Forces.

3. Post here when the confirmation is received and everything. I am debating about the As-Is state of JF-17 not what it will be(majorly because I dont have much hopes on the outdates air-frame of the aircraft).

SD10 and R Darter are already in our possession , once we receive the A and T Darter we will let you know. I wonder why you think the airframe is outdated , oh wait i know because its operated by PAF.

4. Thanks for the info. May I ask the ranges of those weapons when compared to the missiles carried by the Mig-29 and Su-30 MKI.

Ranges ; is this the only thing you will ask, what about the seeker, its resistance to jamming and manuverability/agility. Only little fanboys who consider themselves Aviation Experts ask for the ranges, but whats more important is the seeker and how resistant is the missile to jamming. As far as the ranges are concerned:

SD10A = Reported range of around 100km
R Darter = Fire and Forget BVRAAM with a range of around 120km, disclosed by Shamim Sahab.

5. I see serious reliability issues with the Rose platform. Being capable doesnt mean that you will perform a task reliabily always. Rose is badly outdated and I dont know how people can trust such a platform to perform a multi-role mission.

Well we dont see any reliability issues with the ROSE upgraded Mirages, we have put them through the grind and they have performed exceptionally well. The aircraft might be old but it has been built through scratch; it houses a full glass cockpit, upgraded avionics and a decent radar. We believe in its multi role capabilities because whenever we needed this plane whether in A2G or A2A, it has delivered and with deadly precision. The ROSE upgraded Mirages are excellent platforms, the naysayers dont know jack and in this particular case you dont know jack about the Mirages or JF17's. You just proved my point , thanks for doing that. The only problem we had with these aircrafts was their endurance because they burn a lot of gas due to the turbojet engine, but that problem has also been solved with the introduction of A2A Refuelling. The Upgraded Mirages are here to stay and will serve PAF till at least 2020 .

You know what your problem is mate as Taimi Bhai described it perfectly; your thinking with your Indian cap on, if you took that off and actually started brainstorming with a neutral cap on, TRUST ME it will do you a world of good.

 

[Hindustan Fighter]

This is in reply to the first post and in context to the title of this thread.
-I dont think that 'Narrowing PAF and IAF gap by 2015' should be viewed only on the terms of quantity and quality of the 4th generated aircrafts on both sides,it rather should also account for the narrowing of gap with respect to functional and operational capabilities of the respective air forces.

I don't believe PAF's aim is to attain parity with IAF but to have a credible deterrence against IAF.
-The fact that till 2009 PAF didn't operated any BVR capable aircrafts was itself a great advantage to IAF, as it enjoyed this capability for at least last 15 years. But now with the initiation of PAF induction process of Block 52 and MLU with AIM 120C5 and JHMS will create a significant deterrence in near future. Also not to forget JF-17 which will soon have have SD-10 integrated by this year end.
-Also these new and upgraded F-16 will bring new capabilities to conduct night time strike mission with precision guided Air to ground and air to sea weapon systems, the capabilities that PAF lacked until this year.
-Also these new aircraft inductions(MLU and Block 52) have given PAF access to latest state of art Electronic counter measures systems and radar/ missile jamming systems which could prove handful against current and may be future IAF platforms.
-The additions of SAAB Eyrine AWACS has further increase the effectiveness of PAF as they can have 24 hour eye on their airspace and also can effectively guide and coordinate their aircrafts when required.

All the above points combined together along with respective number of aircrafts (120-150 by 2015) will be enough to act as credible and effective deterrence against IAF and will definite narrow the gap between IAF and PAF to a significant extend till the time IAF acquires 5th generation platform which again initiate this widening and narrowing cycle.

I would like to end with an example, that after mumbai aftermath, if at all IAF had carried out surgical strikes in early 2009 it would had been very difficult for PAF to counter it due to lack of the above mentioned capabilities and would have to depend a lot on air defence systems. But now in any time in near future if at all IAF have to undertake such a mission they definitely have to consider PAF's response, won't be easy at all.

 

[Sapper]

-Also these new and upgraded F-16 will bring new capabilities to conduct night time strike mission with precision guided Air to ground and air to sea weapon systems, the capabilities that PAF lacked until this year.
-Also these new aircraft inductions(MLU and Block 52) have given PAF access to latest state of art Electronic counter measures systems and radar/ missile jamming systems which could prove handful against current and may be future IAF platforms.

Good post, but a few correction is needed here;
(I fully agree to your comments that new Bl52 F16s add a huge huge punch to our airforce, but consider these as just FYI items)

1. Precision Guided Munition, Especially LGB were already available since first F16 induction in 1980s, pictures of which are available on Net. F16s used Thompson ATLIS-II pods for acquisition and lasing the targets.
More-over, A-5 and Rose Mirages also have LGB capability, and they have integrated Nose Mounted FLIR pods to deliver these.

2. Night Strike capability was always available in Bl15 F16s we have, but its range is limited to about 6 Nm which was good enough for 80s, but not nowadays. In 1990s, Rose retrofit on Mirage 5 yielded a unit specially configure for Night Precision Strike and were called "Night Strike Eagles" Sq25 Mirage 5 Rose 3.

3. Air to Sea, capability with Harpoons is also available on Mirage 5 Rose 3 fighters based in Karachi. There are a lot of PAF Mirage 5 pictures with Harpoon hanging at center-line station. They are dedicated Sea strike aircrafts to defend the Coastline against Naval vessels.

4. Electronic Counter Measure Pods, in shape of AN/ALQ-131 pod was available with PAF since F-16 induction and you can find many many pictures of PAF F16 with ALQ-131 pods on internet (sample: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...019-paf-anatolian-eagle-07-2-a.html#post80101).
But yes, the new ALQ-211 pod will be ages ahead of its older counterpart.

Note: No Pun intended, just information. Forgive me I couldn't resist.

Regards,
Sapper

 

[bc040400065]

Dnt wary we are not gonna induct those ugly looking incomplete fighters


We dnt want to make fun of our self just like you did with inducting jf17 in your AF

JF17 a dead duck.....
JF17 a majbori....


Well to all the Indian Members disappointment the dead duck is already on the list of number of Airforces including Egypt as the first export customer with 32 to 48 aircrafts in the first order. And the list includes some others as well.


So the dead duck is little bit famous in the world now a days,,, i think this must be ISI's work....

 

[Manticore]

2 jf17/month is pac kamra rate-- whats our chinese jf17 output rate?

 

[rafay321]

Hey Rafay............your brother Big Mac hv no answer to my post. Do you hv any.............

I am no internet warrior....i would answer you if its no troll like our majburi and jf17 is crappiest of the crap.

We are not dependent upon LCA for our Air Force's survivability like Pakistan is on JF-17. We have many more.

IAF knows the depending on Tejas is suicidal unlike PAF which has identified its requirements and its 101% sure that jf17 meets them and is dependable. Plain and simple. We already have a squadron fully armed anf flying ready to take on anything.

IAF had identified its requirements of a fighter jet 25 years back and did not care to update those as they can get their sukhios and mmrca and mig29s and the great Tejas is no where to be seen.....



On very serious note. IAF will only be interested in Tejas if it is something better or equal to what they already have. Good luck with that as i dont see that happening in next 50 years.


Likewise PAF is so interested in Jf-17 because it is way way better than old mirages, and mig21s it will replace.

 

[Safriz]

Looking at the stretagy of Pakistan navy..where they dont have too many destroyers and no aircraft carriers..but far too many missile boats...PAF may follow similar strategy of "Buying a bunch of wasps instead of a big fat elephant"

IAF is investing in big fat elephants,and no doubt its an scary technique..but expensive..

Pakistan may not have Flankers and any Gen % planes yet..But the cheap to produce and maintain JF-17s will sufficiently counter act indian elephants,if introduces in bulk...
Pack hunting is a technique used by many airforces...In which a team of low tech airplanes hunt one or two High tech planes while acting as a team...

Similar can be PAF's technique,,,and i have heard they are practicing Pack hunting techniques already..

 

[SQ8]

Uhh.. pack hunting.. maybe you forgot about multiple target engagement capabilities of the Flanker series.. and while I dont think the Jf-17 cant engage a flanker successfully on its own.. pack hunting can also be seen from the other end as duck shoot.
In the congested battlefield that will be the Indo-pak theater of the future.. the winner will be the one minimizing the OODA loop for its forces. One that can detect enemy movement, predict and position assets to counter it, strike the enemy where it hurts most, generate the maximum number of missions, co-ordinate with sister services... ALL in parallel.

In simpler terms.. such a system will be allow a two ship of Jf-17's to bring down a flight of Su-30's.. and on the other side of the coin allow a Jaguar flight to decimate a tank column without loss.