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Narrowing PAF Gap V IAF by 2015

Good post, but a few correction is needed here;
(I fully agree to your comments that new Bl52 F16s add a huge huge punch to our airforce, but consider these as just FYI items)

1. Precision Guided Munition, Especially LGB were already available since first F16 induction in 1980s, pictures of which are available on Net. F16s used Thompson ATLIS-II pods for acquisition and lasing the targets.
More-over, A-5 and Rose Mirages also have LGB capability, and they have integrated Nose Mounted FLIR pods to deliver these.

2. Night Strike capability was always available in Bl15 F16s we have, but its range is limited to about 6 Nm which was good enough for 80s, but not nowadays. In 1990s, Rose retrofit on Mirage 5 yielded a unit specially configure for Night Precision Strike and were called "Night Strike Eagles" Sq25 Mirage 5 Rose 3.

3. Air to Sea, capability with Harpoons is also available on Mirage 5 Rose 3 fighters based in Karachi. There are a lot of PAF Mirage 5 pictures with Harpoon hanging at center-line station. They are dedicated Sea strike aircrafts to defend the Coastline against Naval vessels.

4. Electronic Counter Measure Pods, in shape of AN/ALQ-131 pod was available with PAF since F-16 induction and you can find many many pictures of PAF F16 with ALQ-131 pods on internet (sample: http://www.defence.pk/forums/milita...019-paf-anatolian-eagle-07-2-a.html#post80101).
But yes, the new ALQ-211 pod will be ages ahead of its older counterpart.

Note: No Pun intended, just information. Forgive me I couldn't resist.

Regards,
Sapper

Yes Sapper thanks for your input and updating my information.
 
8 pages of this thread - yet not one post that actually seeks clarification of the main premise of the thread - is BVR the entirety of what the lead piece suggests is a "fighter gap" ? Are aircraft vs aircraft a valuable or worthy element of analysis of the capablities of Air Forces?
 
2 jf17/month is pac kamra rate-- whats our chinese jf17 output rate?

PAC has three factories,

1. Mirage Rebuilt Factory, Used to completely strip down and rebuilt a Mirage 3/5 airframe from spares bought from many many sources.

2. F-6 Rebuilt Factory, now changed to dedicated F-7 overhaul/rebuild factory.

3. Aircraft Manufacturing Factory, manufacturing JF-17s and many other components for K-8, Mushak etc.

Currently only AMF is producing JF-17s, at more or less 6 per quarter rate, and you can clearly see (from pictures) 6 airframes being worked on simultaneously, but its not upto full speed as yet. When Mirages and F-7s are phased out, they might be converted to JF-17 manufacturing plants as well (just a speculation).

I believe CATIC might have similar rate 2 per quarter, but since all PAF officials are insisting that they will complete Batch-1 of 50 in 2011. Currently 14 are confirmed delivered, and rest of 36 will be done in less than 1.25 year, suggesting that a dozen or more planes will still come from CATIC manufacturing line, but exact rate is not confirmed.

Regards,
Sapper
 
Well Dear,

Ever heard of an industry term called Design Freeze ?
And if you consider Rafale a success story, then i can only wish that you pray for same success for LCA.

You do know what does the word Success mean ? do you.
Btw, i never said LCA/Rafale are failed projects either, they didn't fail completely, atleast not in quality terms. France flies Rafale and has confidence in its potential, in similar fashion, India has confidence in its LCA, and IAF has been arm-twisted into buying them as well. But even after repeated marketing attempts, Rafale has yet to convince a buyer.
The only failure comes in monetary and scheduling dimensions. Apart from that both are good machines for their intended role.


Regards,
Sapper

IAF has been arm twisted..............REALLY??? But still better position than pay the price to buy the fighter plane, then got sanctioned from sellter, and pay that sellter the parking fee for those planes. That what I believe is real arm-twisting.:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Pak defence strengthened, very marginally
CHIEF of Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Rao Qamar Suleman has cat egorically stated that there was no restriction on the use of newly-acquired F-16 combat aircraft against any adversary. Talking to reporters at Shahbaz Air Base in Jaccobabad after a ceremony to mark the formal induction of the first three of 18 advanced F-16 fighter jets into the PAF fleet, he stated “our mission is to maintain peace in the region with honour, but if the primary effort fails we will use all our assets, including these aircraft, to defend our country against any internal or external threats”.

This clarification and assurance is significant as it comes in the wake of propaganda unleashed by Indian lobbies that the aircraft are being given to Pakistan with the condition that these would not be used against India. In fact, such a condition would have been absurd as the country faces real threat to its security from India and if these were not for use in the face of aggression from the eastern front then their mere acquisition becomes irrelevant and meaningless. A poor country like Pakistan cannot afford to have the luxury of maintaining a fleet of such costly jet fighters just for showcasing purposes. We would also point out that this is a commercial deal and not as big a concession by the United States as is being portrayed these days. In fact, the United States withheld both cash and planes and instead charged parking fee from Pakistan for undelivered fighter jets. No doubt, the new F-16s would provide the PAF all-weather day and night precision attack capability, adding a new dimension to the PAF’s potential but this addition would be marginal if viewed in the context of latest weapons including fighter planes being procured by India from all available sources. We would, therefore, urge our policy-makers not to rely solely on supply from a single source and instead enter into joint ventures with countries like China and Turkey to develop weapons of the need on our own.

Link: Pak defence strengthened, very marginally

:rofl:That was joke of the millenium!!!!:rofl:

:smokin:
 
IAF has been arm twisted..............REALLY???

That was joke of the millenium!!!!

Dear,

Read this report regarding Dhruv,
http://cag.gov.in/html/reports/commercial/2010-11_10PA/chap3.pdf

Its only a matter of time before similar report surfaces about LCA, no wonder why IAF hasn't inducted it yet.

I am quoting Conclusions presented at the End of the Report ...

3.8 Conclusion
The collaboration agreement was closed/terminated prematurely. Non-freezing of design of ALH kept the development stage open. Despite getting the first prototype of ALH utility version in 1992, till date the Company did not meet the technical requirements of defence services, which changed too often impacting the development process necessitating large number of modifications. 74 helicopters supplied to defence customers are flying with concessions. Under its concept of ‘concurrent technology’ the Company failed to consider the infrastructure imbalances. Development of high-powered Shakti engine is delayed. Defective quality issues resulted in grounding and un-serviceability of helicopters for long period affecting the operational necessities of the customer. In the absence of international certification the Company could not establish its product in international market. The envisaged indigenisation level of 50 per cent, is yet to be achieved.
The matter was reported to the Ministry in February 2010; their reply was awaited (March 2010).

Read full chapter to know how HAL Arm-Twisted indian armed forces into buying an incomplete, sub par chopper under the umbrella of concession not from HAL to IAF, infact the other way round.

Now that's a joke of the mellinium, don't you think.

Regards,
Sapper
 
Dear,

Read this report regarding Dhruv,
http://cag.gov.in/html/reports/commercial/2010-11_10PA/chap3.pdf

Its only a matter of time before similar report surfaces about LCA, no wonder why IAF hasn't inducted it yet.

I am quoting Conclusions presented at the End of the Report ...

Read full chapter to know how HAL Arm-Twisted indian armed forces into buying an incomplete, sub par chopper under the umbrella of concession not from HAL to IAF, infact the other way round.

Now that's a joke of the mellinium, don't you think.

Regards,
Sapper

Nope............that wasn't

The Indian Coast Guard became the first service to bring Dhruv helicopters into service. This was followed by the Indian Army, Indian Navy, Indian Air Force and the Border Security Force. Seventy five Dhruvs were delivered to the Indian armed forces by 2007 and the plan is to produce forty helicopters yearly. One of only three helicopter display teams in the world, the Sarang aerobatic display team of the Indian Air Force performs with four Dhruv helicopters.

The Dhruv is capable of flying at high altitudes, a crucial requirement for the Army, which requires helicopters for operations in Siachen Glacier and Kashmir. In September 2007, the Dhruv was cleared for high-altitude flying in the Siachen Sector after six-month long trials. In October 2007, a Dhruv flew to an altitude of 27,500 feet (8,400 m) ASL in Siachen. This was the highest that the Dhruv had flown, and was higher than the 25,000 feet (7,600 m) record set by an IAF Cheetah helicopter in 2005.


Foreign sales
The Dhruv has become the first major Indian weapons system to have secured large foreign sales. HAL hopes to sell 120 Dhruvs over the next eight years, and has been displaying the Dhruv at airshows, including Farnborough and Paris in order to market the Dhruv.

With a unit price at least 15% less than its rivals, Dhruv has elicited interest in many countries, mostly from Latin America, Africa, West Asia, South East Asia and the Pacific Rim nations. Air forces from around 35 countries have sent in their inquiries, along with requests for demonstrations.

The first foreign orders for the Dhruv were placed by Nepal in early 2004, for 2 Dhruvs. Another Dhruv, a civilian version, was leased to the Israeli Defense Ministry in 2004

In June 2008, the government of Peru ordered two air ambulance Dhruvs for use by the Peruvian health services. Peru has also shown interest in the military version Dhruv.

HAL also secured an order from the Ecuadorian Air Force for seven Dhruvs. HAL has gained this order amidst strong competition from Elbit, Eurocopter and Kazan. HAL’s offer of $ 50.7 million for seven helicopters was about 32% lower than the second lowest bid from Elbit. Five helicopters will be delivered in February 2009, during the Aero India 2009. The remaining two helicopters will be delivered within six months Ecuadorian Army and Ecuadorian Navy have also expressed unofficial interest in purchasing the helicopter.

Dhruv also participated in a Chilean tender for eight to ten 5.5 tonne, twin engined new generation helicopter, but lost to the Bell Helicopters Bell 412 amid allegations of arm-twisting by the US Government. The evaluation included flights at high altitudes, hot and desert conditions, ship deck landing, search and rescue at 12,500 feet (3,800 m) MSL at a temperature of 2°C as well as long distance ferry flights, clocking 107 flying hours.

On August 10, 2008 HAL chairman confirmed it had finalized a deal with Turkey to supply 3 Dhruvs for $20 million. Turkey is planning to buy as many as 17 helicopters in medical assistance role.

India is also reportedly planning to transfer several Dhruvs to Burma. This led to protests from Amnesty International, who pointed to the use of components sourced from European suppliers as a possible violation of the EU Arms Embargo of Burma. In a letter to the President of the EU Council of Ministers, Amnesty stated that it had evidence that India planned to transfer two Dhruvs (with European components) to Burma. These reports have been denied by the Indian Government.

HAL is negotiating with Bolivia for delivery of five Dhruvs and with Venezuela for seven of the choppers in transport roles, and in Europe. The Dhruv is also being offered to Malaysia. Indonesia is also evaluating Dhruv helicopters for the Indonesian Army.

Flight certification for Europe and North America is also being planned, in order to tap the large civilian market there.

On 18 April 2010. the Indian navy supplied a Dhruv to Maldives to use in Maldivian defense force in search and rescue operations.

You are free to believe whatever you want.:tup:


Some info about LCA.....

In March 2005, the IAF placed a 2,000 crore (US$ 434 million) order for 20 aircraft, with a similar purchase of another 20 aircraft to follow. All 40 will be equipped with the F404-GE-IN20 engine. The Tejas is presently undergoing flight testing. It will be inducted into the IAF when it has received Initial Operating Clearance (IOC) which is expected to be in December 2010.

Consequently, the IAF has created a 14 member "LCA Induction Team" stationed in Bangalore that is composed of IAF pilots and officers and headed by an Air Vice Marshal. The team's objectives are to reportedly oversee the induction of the LCA, help solve any challenges that may arise, assist HAL in customizing the Tejas for operational use, and to create doctrines, training and maintenance programs and finally to assist the IAF in ensuring a smooth introduction of 'Tejas' into operational service.

HAL Tejas high-altitude trials at Leh successfully completed by December 2008.The first production variant of the 'Tejas' (LSP-1) flew on June 2008. Tejas completed 1000 Test Flights by January, 2009 with more than 530 hours of in-flight testing.[39] By February 2009 officials of the Aeronautical Development Agency stated that the Tejas had started flying with weapons and integration of radars would be completed by March 2009. In addition, they stated that nearly all system development activity would be completed by that time.[40] On April 2010, the third production aircraft (LSP-3) flew with a hybrid version of the Elta EL/M-2032 multi-mode radar and [28][41] by June 2010, the fourth production aircraft took flight in the configuration it would be delivered to the Indian Air Force in. By June 2010, Tejas had also completed the second phase of hot weather trials. The objective of the hot weather trials was to prove that the aircraft was in an IOC configuration with the weapon system and sensors integrated.

The trainer variant prototype took to the skies in November 2009. In December 2009, the Indian government sanctioned 8,000 crore (US$ 1.74 billion) to begin production of the fighter jet for the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy. The Indian Navy has a requirement of 50 Tejas and the first protoype, NP-1 was rolled out in July 2010. IAF had ordered 20 additional Tejas fighter jets and the defence acquisition council had cleared the plan.

But what you will say about that Parking-Fee thing...............please-please, just one comment.:rofl::rofl:
:smokin:
 
King of duds.. added you to the esteemed list of people I consider suffering from delusion.. and inferiority complex.. tell me, do you get up in the morning with a phone alarm ringing "Im the best, Im the best....yes you are the best"??
Post like yours only reinforce views of people who believe that Indians are simply too vain to accept any fault in their possessions(in front of a non Indian) and anything better than theirs.. and if it is they will go to any length to post as much pithy material about their target as possible.. even making a sob story video on youtube..

Muse.. the problem is that most people have an inate fear of a future conflict with a BVR less force.. and popular misconceptions that exist about the BVR capability of the PAF.
 
let's say PAF has closed gap with IAF & may even overtake IAF. what's achieved?? just by achieving the military might is not be all & end all. what about bridging gap in other sectors? even north korea has more powerful military than most of the countries, but people live like slaves.
 
PAC has three factories,

1. Mirage Rebuilt Factory, Used to completely strip down and rebuilt a Mirage 3/5 airframe from spares bought from many many sources.

2. F-6 Rebuilt Factory, now changed to dedicated F-7 overhaul/rebuild factory.

3. Aircraft Manufacturing Factory, manufacturing JF-17s and many other components for K-8, Mushak etc.

Currently only AMF is producing JF-17s, at more or less 6 per quarter rate, and you can clearly see (from pictures) 6 airframes being worked on simultaneously, but its not upto full speed as yet. When Mirages and F-7s are phased out, they might be converted to JF-17 manufacturing plants as well (just a speculation).

I believe CATIC might have similar rate 2 per quarter, but since all PAF officials are insisting that they will complete Batch-1 of 50 in 2011. Currently 14 are confirmed delivered, and rest of 36 will be done in less than 1.25 year, suggesting that a dozen or more planes will still come from CATIC manufacturing line, but exact rate is not confirmed.

Regards,
Sapper



Sir jee,

So does it mean we will have 64 JF-17s by the end of 2011?
 
Did You ever Know an Aircraft called Rafele, Produced by the Masters of Delta wing took 30+ Years..... a Project Initiated in 1970 was Rafale, ring any Bells???? Making aircraft is Not Easy For the rest of the world, Like it is for Pakistan.... And Tejas has not taken 30 Years, It has taken 27 Years.... Very Less Time I must say

Lol. now our indian friends are comparing the Tejas with Rafale :rofl: Man O man. Rafale may have took some time but atleast its SOME respectable aircraft .Where does Tejas stand ? I guess nowhere :azn:

Dont you guys still want Rafale for MRCA as well :whistle:

Anyways here is the broad time outlibne for ur consumption. Read it carefully and then comment

RAFALE

In 1983, France awarded Dassault a contract for two Avion de Combat eXpérimental (ACX) demonstrators.
The Rafale A technology demonstrator was rolled out in late 1985 and

Made its maiden flight on 4 July 1986.

Production orders were placed in 1988.


NOW LETS COMPARE TIMELINE WITH LOVELY DOVELY TEJAS :cheers:

1983 DRDO obtained permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft

7 more years gone :hang2: , finally

1990 Design of LCA was finalised as a small delta winged reverse static stability aircraft.

:lazy:

1995 First technology demonstrator, TD-1, rolled out on 17 November 1995 and was followed by TD-2 in 1998. However, technical problems in flight control systems and structural deficiencies plagued the prototypes and they remained grounded.

and finally after nine years

2002 TD-2 makes a successful maiden flight.

still trials going on :hang2:

2010 LCA Tejas LSP-4 Makes Maiden Flight. The flight marks the first time for a Tejas aircraft flying in the configuration that will be finally delivered to the Indian Air Force.

did you see mate where the timelines stand between Rafale and Tejas

still some say 2011, and some 2015 before it will be ops in the IAF. Who knows. :whistle:
 
1983 DRDO obtained permission to initiate a programme to design and develop a Light Combat Aircraft

7 more years gone :hang2: , finally

Do you know when JF program was initiated in China ? Think about it and consider the fact that China had considerable aero experience before initiating JF program.

A/C building is not easy --- And if you jump in it without realizing the difficulties -- then you have already made your first mistake. DRDO did that (just like it did for many programs initially) -- But people learn from experience...You can start tracking the program after IOC (Dec 2010) and see how long it take for MK2 to come up -- You will realize what a learning curve means and what it can do for the reasearch.
 
oops it seems IAF is also on an opinion poll

IAF+LCA+POLL.JPG



Livefist - The Best of Indian Defence: IAF Conducts Poll, Asks If LCA Tejas Will Replace MiG-21 In Time!
 
let's say PAF has closed gap with IAF & may even overtake IAF. what's achieved?? just by achieving the military might is not be all & end all. what about bridging gap in other sectors? even north korea has more powerful military than most of the countries, but people live like slaves.



You are actually, for the first time as an Indian member in general, are talking some sense or at least trying to.

The problem is politics.

Nothing more. North Korea is just too bad as an example for South Asian nations, though it can be used as a wake up call and an example of what not to become.

I really can't wait for the next elections in Pakistan, because one thing that the floods showed all those Sindhi and Punjabi villagers (Who voted for ppp in sympathy because of Benazir's assassination) is that they voted looters into power.

Once there is true demcracy, you will see what Pakistan is capable of.......and that doesn't look very far.

Anyway, it's politics so we can't talk here.
 

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