Nadeem F Paracha insults Allama Iqbal.

[Not Sure]

It is most likely Zaid Hamid Sahib called the people of Thar as Bhooke Nange in the context of "O Muslims!, O people of Pakistan! Please go and help them, they are hungry, they are naked"

hahahahaha Dude you are funny

That you quoted me the third time, when you could have watched the video in less than half that effort. I will let you in a little on what he said.

Your Sahib in fact said, "Army ko operation karne ke liye NWZ bhejna chahiye, aur ye siyasatdan unko Thar bhej rahe hain un bhookhe nango ko khana khilane ke liye".

The next thing he said using the same term was much more contemptuous, for that you will have to refer to the video.

Ab iske baad Khuda ke liye, mujhe quote na kijiyega... please!

 

[Multani]

Your Sahib in fact said, "Army ko operation karne ke liye NWZ bhejna chahiye, aur ye siyasatdan unko Thar bhej rahe hain un bhookhe nango ko khana khilane ke liye".

We need to know the context in which he is speaking.

If he said this, I don't think he had an intention of insulting the people of Thar. He most likely means the politicians ought to go and feed those "hungry and naked people" instead, and the use of the army should be prioritized at the moment. I don't think he is competing two issues. Context is required.

 

[Informant]

western education teaches people to insult their own religion, their own values, in the name of critical thinking, as if in the background lies the cloud of truth, to which one is approaching in search of the truth. what guarantee is there that these people, who label themselves as liberals, will remain Muslim, or their grand children, will not start insulting the Messengers of God? Or they be even Muslim. Just a hypothesis, but based on real life past evidences on the ground, like the western countries [ fast becoming Christian to atheist ]. Soon we will have satire as Muslim or Pakistani versions of South Park?? What kind of norms are western values? How did they become norms on a global scale?

@Zarvan , Zarvan is right, when he called western thought as the daddy of these so called Pakistani liberals

I am not saying there is no good in unorthodox thoughts, or in western values or thoughts. You can find good everywhere, and evil everywher

Being afraid and being slave to your line thought ( not an insult, just the overly dramay baaaz, unwittingly "shoot-my-own-foot" though process) has led to the decadence of our nation. Do you know the golden age of Islam had many "liberal" thinkers. These were the ones who brought change and modernity to Islam, our way of life. They were the one to challenge the religious dogma that all maulvis has even in those times.

Are you not so firm in belief that your faith is complete and end of, or do you doubt Islam that people will act on it the way "atheist" Christians do?. You dont have the faith to question itself. Islam doesnt need zombies of Muslims, like your Zarvan guy who cant see anything without punching a hole through Qur'an. You lecture on the flawed narrative that Muslims are like Christians and they will do what the Christians flounder.

They question their religion and find many loopholes, hence their faith is diminishing. Do you not have the belief that Islam is absolute. It has everything one needs to be at peace?

And why not question religion? No better way to firm our belief, we arent at the top of food chain eating whatever we were handed out? Ahraful Makhlukat as well? We have a brain and dont be afraid to use it seeing that Christians do what and what not?

South Park is made by an Atheist and a Jew. So there you have it. The bigger deal you make out of it, the more ridiculous you will sound. In the end who are you to dictate and label a person as liberal or not? You have no right to call a Muslim a non-Muslim. You put your own faith in jeopardy, lest you can 100% prove it. You cannot, so please flailing argument that people MAY, MIGHT, etc etc wont work and falls flat.

Peace.

 

[Multani]

Being afraid and being slave to your line thought ( not an insult, just the overly dramay baaaz, unwittingly "shoot-my-own-foot" though process) has led to the decadence of our nation. Do you know the golden age of Islam had many "liberal" thinkers. These were the ones who brought change and modernity to Islam, our way of life. They were the one to challenge the religious dogma that all maulvis has even in those times.

Are you not so firm in belief that your faith is complete and end of, or do you doubt Islam that people will act on it the way "atheist" Christians do?. You dont have the faith to question itself. Islam doesnt need zombies of Muslims, like your Zarvan guy who cant see anything without punching a hole through Qur'an. You lecture on the flawed narrative that Muslims are like Christians and they will do what the Christians flounder.

They question their religion and find many loopholes, hence their faith is diminishing. Do you not have the belief that Islam is absolute. It has everything one needs to be at peace?

And why not question religion? No better way to firm our belief, we arent at the top of food chain eating whatever we were handed out? Ahraful Makhlukat as well? We have a brain and dont be afraid to use it seeing that Christians do what and what not?

South Park is made by an Atheist and a Jew. So there you have it. The bigger deal you make out of it, the more ridiculous you will sound. In the end who are you to dictate and label a person as liberal or not? You have no right to call a Muslim a non-Muslim. You put your own faith in jeopardy, lest you can 100% prove it. You cannot, so please flailing argument that people MAY, MIGHT, etc etc wont work and falls flat.

Peace.

The "liberals" in Islamic history are not the liberals of today. The liberals of today come from a back-ground based on western norms, taught in western universities. I believe, the Muslim thinkers would frown at the behaviour of these liberal thinkers among Muslims, who have been educated in the western model. Take the example of natural selection itself being taught in western norms or gay liberation.

I am not saying everything is evil in the western model. There is good and bad in it.

Of course they can question their religion. But at least they should have the credentials to question their religion. That is why, those who do have credentials in religion, have clarified that the loopholes found by these liberals are false in their assertion.

Islam is a creation. Creation cannot be absolute. Only God has the Attribute to be Absolute, and He has Absolute Attributes.

 

[Informant]

The "liberals" in Islamic history are not the liberals of today. The liberals of today come from a back-ground based on western norms, taught in western universities. I believe, the Muslim thinkers would frown at the behaviour of these liberal thinkers among Muslims, who have been educated in the western model. Take the example of natural selection itself being taught in western norms or gay liberation.

Of course they can question their religion. But at least they should have the credentials to question their religion. That is why, those who do have credentials in religion, have clarified that the loopholes found by these liberals are false in their assertion.

Islam is a creation. Creation cannot be absolute. Only God has the Attribute to be Absolute, and He has Absolute Attributes.

ISlam is the belief in God, are saying His given religion isnt Absolute. Islam wasn't created, it was given to us just as the Holy Quran.

Anyone can question religion, you, me, anyone. But we have to as a result search for credible answers. Such is the lead of education today, it's Western because we Muslims got dragged down by religion uselessly. Education was forbind in the early 1800s saying it was incompatible with religion. Before that during the time of Mughals, printing press were banned for the fear of people and their knowledge. In the decay of Islamic Age it was the Muslims didnt accept different enlightening advancements but yet stuck to their guns. Guess what we are at the back of the line now.

A very very small segment of society always clungs on to "out of the depths of society" with their ideas and expectations. So what? It is a small minority, let them be. People are sane enough to know who are a bit out there and who arent. This small minority voices a lot and we should be tolerant as it was the example of our Prophet (saws).

 

[Multani]

ISlam is the belief in God, are saying His given religion isnt Absolute. Islam wasn't created, it was given to us just as the Holy Quran.

Anyone can question religion, you, me, anyone. But we have to as a result search for credible answers. Such is the lead of education today, it's Western because we Muslims got dragged down by religion uselessly. Education was forbind in the early 1800s saying it was incompatible with religion. Before that during the time of Mughals, printing press were banned for the fear of people and their knowledge. In the decay of Islamic Age it was the Muslims didnt accept different enlightening advancements but yet stuck to their guns. Guess what we are at the back of the line now.

A very very small segment of society always clungs on to "out of the depths of society" with their ideas and expectations. So what? It is a small minority, let them be. People are sane enough to know who are a bit out there and who arent. This small minority voices a lot and we should be tolerant as it was the example of our Prophet (saws).

There are two realities. God and Creation. God created Islam, and that is why Islam is a creation. God is Absolute and His Attributes are Absolute.

To question something, you need to be qualified about it, else it's all in vain. During the times of the Mughals, there were dozens of major seminaries across the Sub Continent, immense estates of Awqaf, and hundreds of their branches across the length and breadth, that produced educated people par excellence. Geesu Daraz is an example from Dakkan. These liberals among Muslims today and in this thread, would not stand a chance in front of that Muslim thinker. These institutions, though based on religion, had their printing presses, and they were connected to Ghazni and Herat in Afghanistan, and then onwards to Central Asia and Arabia. So, printing press was well and alive. Geesu Daraz wrote 500 works, based on religion and non-religious subjects.

Guns were supplied to Muslims during colonial times. And their institutions were bombed during colonial times. And then they were taught the beauties of the emerging new world western order.

 

[Multani]

ISlam is the belief in God, are saying His given religion isnt Absolute. Islam wasn't created, it was given to us just as the Holy Quran.

Anyone can question religion, you, me, anyone. But we have to as a result search for credible answers. Such is the lead of education today, it's Western because we Muslims got dragged down by religion uselessly. Education was forbind in the early 1800s saying it was incompatible with religion. Before that during the time of Mughals, printing press were banned for the fear of people and their knowledge. In the decay of Islamic Age it was the Muslims didnt accept different enlightening advancements but yet stuck to their guns. Guess what we are at the back of the line now.

A very very small segment of society always clungs on to "out of the depths of society" with their ideas and expectations. So what? It is a small minority, let them be. People are sane enough to know who are a bit out there and who arent. This small minority voices a lot and we should be tolerant as it was the example of our Prophet (saws).

Yes, I made a mistake, a major one in fact. One of God's Attributes is His Speech. And His Speech is Absolute. And His Speech is the Qur'an al Majeed. And the Qur'an al Majeed is not a creation. Since, the Qur'an al Majeed is Islam, therefore Islam is not a Creation, but God's Absolute Speech. Islam is therefore Absolute.

This is the line of reasoning.

 

[Nadi]

no man can match the Level of Holy prophet ( Peace.Be.Upon.Him) but no one has the right to disgrace our forefathers
Since Many Talk about being liberal would u like to No one is more liberal than me cz i was born in country where i was free to do any thing way more liberal than any Pakistani can be and being liberal it means Free to express your concerns against wrong standing up for equality giving rights to others please tell me then which religion can be more libreal than Islam ? Islam was the one who gave women rights Islam gave the concept of equality and Iqbal was the men who only wanted what was good for muslims
Being Liberal dsnt mean you walk nude on the street thats idiotic and Since you are a big liberal why dont you go on a street where are some cops and abuse queen then we will see how liberal canada is ? if you have the balls to do that and cops dont do any thing against you then you or any other person can talk rubbish against Iqbal

Then clearly you aren't such a liberal that you claim to be. The Queen gets bashed around in Canada all the time; its not a big deal. And btw, the Queen is not a 'founding' personality of Canada. The original founders of Canada get their fair share of harsh criticisms too and not just in the public sphere but also in academic settings in universities when history and political science students scrutinize Canada's past. You have got to be joking if you actually think there is a comparison between Canada and Pakistan in how they treat their past, their national identity, etc.

Iqbal is NOT above criticism. Period.

View attachment 21766View attachment 21767
What would you call these tweets???

They are called satirical remarks - a brief version of NFP 'satire' for which he is well known for, are you familiar with that term?

western education teaches people to insult their own religion, their own values, in the name of critical thinking, as if in the background lies the cloud of truth, to which one is approaching in search of the truth. what guarantee is there that these people, who label themselves as liberals, will remain Muslim, or their grand children, will not start insulting the Messengers of God? Or they be even Muslim. Just a hypothesis, but based on real life past evidences on the ground, like the western countries [ fast becoming Christian to atheist ]. Soon we will have satire as Muslim or Pakistani versions of South Park?? What kind of norms are western values? How did they become norms on a global scale?

You could be born a thousand times over and still not have enough talent to create something like South Park. Western education teaches about critical thinking, because nothing is beyond question. Quran says many times that people should use their brains and question things they don't understand instead of just accepting them for what someone tells them.

Its NOT your concern if someone's children or grand-children don't turn out to be the Muslims YOU want them to be. It is between them and Allah. Allah has said in the Quran that he does not need any human to defend Him or the path to him which is Islam. So who are you to try and play the martyr card in Islam's defence? Islam's best defence is the Quran. Islam doesn't need 'ghairat bridgade' of your kind.

 

[Pakistani E]

Why are people here so mad? Is Allama Iqbal above criticism? Is he infallible? People all over Pakistan make fun of and abuse personalities of other nations/religions/peoples. Where are you then? Or is it that you only manufacture your outrage when something close to you is abused, while at the same time throw abuse to others?

 

[Multani]

You could be born a thousand times over and still not have enough talent to create something like South Park. Western education teaches about critical thinking, because nothing is beyond question. Quran says many times that people should use their brains and question things they don't understand instead of just accepting them for what someone tells them.

Its NOT your concern if someone's children or grand-children don't turn out to be the Muslims YOU want them to be. It is between them and Allah. Allah has said in the Quran that he does not need any human to defend Him or the path to him which is Islam. So who are you to try and play the martyr card in Islam's defence? Islam's best defence is the Quran. Islam doesn't need 'ghairat bridgade' of your kind.

Sorry, but Muslims will listen to those qualified to teach them about what Islam requires of them, and how they should teach their children, and how they should design their societies. This is the purpose behind the existence of Shari'at, in the form of Islamic Jurisprudence. You don't seem to know about basic Islamic principles, so you do not qualify as such a teacher.

it's not about what I want. I am just a student. We have an established body of Islamic Scholars, not the mullahs you usually see on TV. These scholars do not appear on TV. Nadi, does not seem to have an idea about Islamic learning, and its 1400 years of established institutions.

Nadi even had the audacity to say that Kemal Pasha dismantled ALL Islamic Institutions in Turkey, which is a lie, as he failed miserably.

Calling South Park talent? Nadi does not know what talent is. The devil is very talented too. That's like calling filth, talent. This is how low these people have dropped.

 

[Nadi]

Sorry, but Muslims will listen to those qualified to teach them about what Islam requires of them, and how they should teach their children, and how they should design their societies. This is the purpose behind the existence of Shari'at, in the form of Islamic Jurisprudence. You don't seem to know about basic Islamic principles, so you do not qualify as such a teacher.

it's not about what I want. I am just a student. We have an established body of Islamic Scholars, not the mullahs you usually see on TV. These scholars do not appear on TV. Nadi, does not seem to have an idea about Islamic learning, and its 1400 years of established institutions.

Nadi even had the audacity to say that Kemal Pasha dismantled ALL Islamic Institutions in Turkey, which is a lie, as he failed miserably.

Calling South Park talent? Nadi does not know what talent is. The devil is very talented too. That's like calling filth, talent. This is how low these people have dropped.

Which Sharia? NO two Muslims agree on the same interpretation of the Sharia; which is why its a mess and hardly applied in most Muslim countries. I don't have to be a teacher to tell someone like you, that you have no right to tell someone what kind of Muslim they are. Its called 'common sense'.

Islam's 1400yr institutions are in ruin. Please enlighten us with a good example of an Islamic institution that is working efficiently and effectively today since you claim to know so much.

Talent comes in different forms; you don't have to agree with a talent but you have to recognize that its a talent. South Park is a successful show, its owners make millions of dollars, donate millions to charities. They make people laugh. Thats not a sin. You can moan all day long here on an internet forum; at the end of the day, you are just another average powerless person while successful people such as those behind South Park are making a difference in people's lives everyday.

 

[Multani]

Which Sharia? NO two Muslims agree on the same interpretation of the Sharia; which is why its a mess and hardly applied in most Muslim countries. I don't have to be a teacher to tell someone like you, that you have no right to tell someone what kind of Muslim they are. Its called 'common sense'.

Islam's 1400yr institutions are in ruin. Please enlighten us with a good example of an Islamic institution that is working efficiently and effectively today since you claim to know so much.

Talent comes in different forms; you don't have to agree with a talent but you have to recognize that its a talent. South Park is a successful show, its owners make millions of dollars, donate millions to charities. They make people laugh. Thats not a sin. You can moan all day long here on an internet forum; at the end of the day, you are just another average powerless person while successful people such as those behind South Park are making a difference in people's lives everyday.

Whoa, Nadi, you do not seem to know the meaning of Shari'at. You said, NO two Muslims, which is nuts. Because, within Sunni Islam, there are 4 established schools of Jurisprudence, and thus an established Institution of Shari'at at least for the Sunnis of Pakistan. Did you know that? Better stick with South Park, and leave Muslims alone. Allama Iqbal did not have such an antipathy against Islam and Muslims, but he was an admirer and a Shaakir, of what we have, a preserver, a motivator, and that is the REASON, why he wrote the Shaheen.

NPF cannot see, and neither do his chums want to hear criticism against him.

You even didn't know that it is MUTAWATIR belief that the Caliphate WILL be established by Sayyiduna Imam Mahdi alahisalam, and you claimed that it will never be in a previous post.

You say, Islamic Institutions are in ruins. Which ones? Would you please let me know? Then I will tell you if it is in ruins or not. There are hundreds of working Islamic institutions spread over 80 countries.

 

[Nadi]

Whoa, Nadi, you do not seem to know the meaning of Shari'at. You said, NO two Muslims, which is nuts. Because, within Sunni Islam, there are 4 established schools of Jurisprudence, and thus an established Institution of Shari'at at least for the Sunnis of Pakistan. Did you know that? Better stick with South Park, and leave Muslims alone. Allama Iqbal did not have such an antipathy against Islam and Muslims, but he was an admirer and a Shaakir, of what we have, a preserver, a motivator, and that is the REASON, why he wrote the Shaheen.

NPF cannot see, and neither do his chums want to hear criticism against him.

You even didn't know that it is MUTAWATIR belief that the Caliphate WILL be established by Sayyiduna Imam Mahdi alahisalam, and you claimed that it will never be in a previous post.

You say, Islamic Institutions are in ruins. Which ones? Would you please let me know? Then I will tell you if it is in ruins or not. There are hundreds of working Islamic institutions spread over 80 countries.

Yes smartass, everyone knows about the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence. This is all THEORY. In practice, none of that actually happens. Pakistanis follow the Hanafi school mostly but the Saudis have been trying to change that ever since the '80s because for them, the Hanafi are 'inferior' Muslims compared to their own Wahhabi and Salafi style of Islam.

You can have your wet-dreams about caliphate being established by Iman Mehdi; Muslims like me are worried about TODAY, not some thousand years in the future. Muslims are dying, living like animals, suffering, TODAY; what is your solution? I'll tel you, you DON'T have a solution. You just have a loud mouth to criticize, thats all. You cannot offer any solutions to the problems of Muslims and Muslim countries today.

Western countries are successful TODAY; because they have a successful model. Its not perfect, but it WORKS. You don't want to adopt a successful model, you want to cling to some wetdream of a caliphate and cannot offer any solution that is successful and would be an alternative to the Western model you despise. Thats called madness.

All you can do is talk about THEORY, Shariat this, Shariat that. But NOTHING that can be implemented in practice. For me, Islam has all the answers but since WE, Muslims cannot AGREE on how to implement and practice Islam as it should be, then for the sake of millions of Muslims who are suffering, we would be better off using the tried and tested model of others. Surely, angels are not going to come down from the heavens to tell us how to put Islamic solutions to our problems in to practice.

Iqbal's Shaheen is a similar wet-dream such as your's of a distant future Caliphate. Its a utopian dream.

I asked you to give me an example of an Islamic institution working effectively and efficiently today; you DON'T know the answer so instead you try to ask me a question in response to a question. Thats ludicrous!

 

[Multani]

Yes smartass, everyone knows about the four schools of Islamic jurisprudence. This is all THEORY. In practice, none of that actually happens. Pakistanis follow the Hanafi school mostly but the Saudis have been trying to change that ever since the '80s because for them, the Hanafi are 'inferior' Muslims compared to their own Wahhabi and Salafi style of Islam.

You can have your wet-dreams about caliphate being established by Iman Mehdi; Muslims like me are worried about TODAY, not some thousand years in the future. Muslims are dying, living like animals, suffering, TODAY; what is your solution? I'll tel you, you DON'T have a solution. You just have a loud mouth to criticize, thats all. You cannot offer any solutions to the problems of Muslims and Muslim countries today.

Western countries are successful TODAY; because they have a successful model. Its not perfect, but it WORKS. You don't want to adopt a successful model, you want to cling to some wetdream of a caliphate and cannot offer any solution that is successful and would be an alternative to the Western model you despise. Thats called madness.

All you can do is talk about THEORY, Shariat this, Shariat that. But NOTHING that can be implemented in practice. For me, Islam has all the answers but since WE, Muslims cannot AGREE on how to implement and practice Islam as it should be, then for the sake of millions of Muslims who are suffering, we would be better off using the tried and tested model of others. Surely, angels are not going to come down from the heavens to tell us how to put Islamic solutions to our problems in to practice.

Iqbal's Shaheen is a similar wet-dream such as your's of a distant future Caliphate. Its a utopian dream.

I asked you to give me an example of an Islamic institution working effectively and efficiently today; you DON'T know the answer so instead you try to ask me a question in response to a question. Thats ludicrous!

What theory? You don't make any sense. The more you talk, the more I can see you don't know pebbles. You are just jumping here and there without any direction. This is a sign of desperation.

Have you prayed Namaz? If you have, then you practiced Shari'at of the Hanafi School [ if you are a Sunni Hanafi, and not a Qadyani] in practice from a book, in fact. And if you are truly literate about Shari'at, then tell me, being a Hanafi, which fiqhi rulings did you follow in Namaz, and where are they derived from? I want the book's name and the Islamic scholar who gathered the way a Hanafi prays namaz.

Yes, it is a fact. All Hanafi Muslims in Pakistan [perhaps 80% of the population] get their way of prayer from a single man's book.

You said, there will Never be a Caliphate, but you lied. Because ALL Muslims believe there will be Caliphate set up by Imam al Mahdi alaihisalam. Only Qadyanis differ.

If you understand the Shaheen, you would know how settled Allamah Iqbal was, how contended he was, and how confident he was. But, NFP shows all the opposite, he is an anarchist.

 

[Nadi]

What theory? You don't make any sense. The more you talk, the more I can see you don't know pebbles. You are just jumping here and there without any direction. This is a sign of desperation.

Have you prayed Namaz? If you have, then you practiced Shari'at of the Hanafi School [ if you are a Sunni Hanafi, and not a Qadyani] in practice from a book, in fact. And if you are truly literate about Shari'at, then tell me, being a Hanafi, which fiqhi rulings did you follow in Namaz, and where are they derived from? I want the book's name and the Islamic scholar who gathered the way a Hanafi prays namaz.

Yes, it is a fact. All Hanafi Muslims in Pakistan [perhaps 80% of the population] get their way of prayer from a single man's book.

You said, there will Never be a Caliphate, but you lied. Because ALL Muslims believe there will be Caliphate set up by Imam al Mahdi alaihisalam. Only Qadyanis differ.

If you understand the Shaheen, you would know how settled Allamah Iqbal was, how contended he was, and how confident he was. But, NFP shows all the opposite, he is an anarchist.

Again, you seem to be going off on a tangent yet accuse me of not knowing. I am still waiting for an answer to my question, which, for your forgetful mind was, give me a good example of an Islamic institution working efficiently and effectively today. I see you have dodged my question again and started ranting instead.

You talk about Shariat, here you are disputing even the simple ritual of offering salah and wondering if I do it correctly or not and according to Hanafi school or some other. This is precisely the current state of affairs of this 'ummah' and yet your Shaheen is nowhere to be seen. Muslims who cannot even agree on the style of offering salah, are going to find solutions to extremely complex problems that face modern day Muslims - when even modernity itself is seen as a problem? Hardly.

When a Pakistani Muslim cannot feed his children due to poverty and injustice, do you think he's going to have wet-dreams about a Caliphate? NO. His problems are HERE and NOW, the result of an unjust society which has led him to the desperate situation of not being able to feed his kids. When an angry mob of illiterate idiots burns down an entire Christian village in Punjab owing to simple rumors of someone desecrating a Qur'an, you think anyone is thinking about Imam Mehdi? NO. Because all those burning the poor Christians' houses and business think they are the Khalifa themselves and the 'ghairat brigade'; they forget Islam's most powerful message of tolerance and forgiveness.

So yes there will never be a Caliphate in my lifetime, nor yours. So its better to stop dreaming about it and start doing something in the form of finding practical solutions to the real-life problems of society, civil liberties, etc faced by Muslims today in their own countries as well as abroad; as well as non-Muslims' problems in Muslim countries of persecution, discrimination, forced conversions, etc.

You can keep huffing and puffing; bottomline is, you have no answers, no solutions. Only cheap talk and cheap taunts.