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Creation and enforcement of laws is the responsibility of the government. Road cleaning, repairing is the responsibility of the government. It seems like apart from KPK and Lahore everything has gone to shits.

You make a fair point, but look over the record and it is clear that the mess keeps on increasing steadily, no matter which flavor of civilian or military government is in power.
 
Planting trees is a good idea, and one that helps with air quality, but trash pickup and disposal is a whole other issue to resolve.

That was just an example. I think people in Peshawar have already attested to the fact that KPK government has done its work.
 
That was just an example. I think people in Peshawar have already attested to the fact that KPK government has done its work.

If PTI does govern that well in KPK, may be it will win enough seats in the rest of the provinces in the next elections to be able to form a federal government.
 
Hi,

" MOTIVATION " is a SOB STORY---( dukhi kahani / Rundi Rona )---.

I have expressed my observations in the best possible manner that I could.

Motivation is for those people who have any CONSCIENCE left---.

So why dont you stay in Pakistan and help improve situation.

Biggest problem is our talent is serving foreign nations. Money is being made but we loosing objective. They will be serving their companies and their children will do the same so slavery will continue. Germans, french, japan etc were destroyed in world war and their people never left home town and look at the progress now.
 
https://www.dawn.com/news/1318581/karachis-rubbish-bins-becoming-threat-to-life-of-citizens

Karachi's rubbish bins becoming threat to life of citizens
AFP

58bbf63f4cfd9.jpg

Children ride on swings alongside dumped garbage in Karachi. —AFP



Neighbours forced their way into Mohammad Umair's home battling smoke and flames in a desperate bid to rescue his young family — he and his wife survived, their children did not.

The fire began in a heap of garbage which blocked the narrow alley outside the five-storey building and quickly spread inside, engulfing the family as they slept that night.
 
The same people exhibited the same behaviors when there was a martial law. Why did things not improve then? The problem lies mainly with the people, it seems.
Four thoughts come to mind:

1) A change of government can be a "new broom that sweeps clean" - replacing the incompetent and lazy with more motivated and competent.

2) A change of government generally puts salaried public servants who are responsible for clearing trash on edge for their jobs, thus improving performance.

3) In a democracy the electorate, or at least a substantial fraction of it, will feel it "owns" the government: the services it provides and the taxes it collects from them. Thus there is a little bit of restraint in slovenly conduct, since they both have increased respect for government and the desire to avoid increased taxes due to sloppiness.

4) In a martial law situation collecting the trash is a much lower priority than keeping public disorder from threatening the current regime.
 
Four thoughts come to mind:

1) A change of government can be a "new broom that sweeps clean" - replacing the incompetent and lazy with more motivated and competent.

2) A change of government generally puts salaried public servants who are responsible for clearing trash on edge for their jobs, thus improving performance.

3) In a democracy the electorate, or at least a substantial fraction of it, will feel it "owns" the government: the services it provides and the taxes it collects from them. Thus there is a little bit of restraint in slovenly conduct, since they both have increased respect for government and the desire to avoid increased taxes due to sloppiness.

4) In a martial law situation collecting the trash is a much lower priority than keeping public disorder from threatening the current regime.

All I will say in response is that you do not know Pakistan like I do.
 
4) In a martial law situation collecting the trash is a much lower priority than keeping public disorder from threatening the current regime.

Hi,

Someone who has seen 3 martial laws---I can guarantee with assurance that the first thing that happens in martial law is clean streets and trash pickup like clockwork---.

During Gen Mushy's regime---we had mayoral system in the city administration---elected candidates---. They took care of the cities---.

When zardari came into power---the mayoral elections disappeared---and same with Nawaz---cities became trash heaps and dumpsters---.
 
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All I will say in response is that you do not know Pakistan like I do.
True. I only know the Pakistanis I meet here at PDF and in person in the U.S.

A change in government, or system of government, is no guarantee of improved governance. The undoubted advantage of democracy is that it lets the informed majority kick incompetent bums out of office without violence. Solon, who stopped a civil war and held the reigns of government for ten years before giving his people guidelines and walking away, thought society was best governed when "the people obey the magistrates, and the magistrates obey the law" - regardless of whether it was a democracy or dictatorship or the character of its people.

Do you know, I never thought that establishing President-type democracy in Afghanistan in 2002 was the best idea? I thought a local-representative (NOT party-list) constitutional monarchy would be better because of the low level of education and development in Afghanistan. In a monarchy you know where the home page of all corruption is and heredity may create a kind of security among the bureaucracy and responsibility in the monarch that insecure dictators and their servants don't have. For a democracy not to veer between dictatorship and mob rule the people have to be sharply critical of leaders by holding them to rule-of-law rather than rule-by-law and have a strong sense of individual rights that supersede the will of the majority. With freedom of speech and increased education a constitutional monarchy, by contesting and taking away power bit-by-bit from the monarch, has room for democratic growth that an imported president-type system doesn't have.
 
I do not see the purpose of this thread. I am myself a cynic and rarely see good. Trash is indeed everywhere in Karachi. But our focus should be on making things better. If we can even improve things .1% then it is a boon for Pakistan.

All I will say in response is that you do not know Pakistan like I do.
Can you really claim to know Pakistan? You are an American more than you are Pakistani. People loyal to it or committed to it can make that claim more than you I suppose... I don't mind you speaking your mind or vouching for a more liberal Pakistan, but lets not make claims when we know our loyalty lies elsewhere. This is a little malicious claim like that of Suroosh Alvi. He is an American but when it suits him he becomes Pakistani and blames Pakistan for complicity with terror groups in the WOT in the same way. You can't be loyal to another country then claim you are Pakistani. Its a duplicitous claim used to influence us Pakistanis into your way of thinking, or worse...
 
True. I only know the Pakistanis I meet here at PDF and in person in the U.S.

A change in government, or system of government, is no guarantee of improved governance. The undoubted advantage of democracy is that it lets the informed majority kick incompetent bums out of office without violence. Solon, who stopped a civil war and held the reigns of government for ten years before giving his people guidelines and walking away, thought society was best governed when "the people obey the magistrates, and the magistrates obey the law" - regardless of whether it was a democracy or dictatorship or the character of its people.

Do you know, I never thought that establishing President-type democracy in Afghanistan in 2002 was the best idea? I thought a local-representative (NOT party-list) constitutional monarchy would be better because of the low level of education and development in Afghanistan. In a monarchy you know where the home page of all corruption is and heredity may create a kind of security among the bureaucracy and responsibility in the monarch that insecure dictators and their servants don't have. For a democracy not to veer between dictatorship and mob rule the people have to be sharply critical of leaders by holding them to rule-of-law rather than rule-by-law and have a strong sense of individual rights that supersede the will of the majority. With freedom of speech and increased education a constitutional monarchy, by contesting and taking away power bit-by-bit from the monarch, has room for democratic growth that an imported president-type system doesn't have.

Take any issue of social development, such as trash in this thread, or any other, and plot out its steadily worsening issues over decades in Pakistan, and anyone can easily see that it is independent of the type of government in power. The underlying issues of social development only grow worse, and demonstrably so. The conclusion is the governments exist to enrich only a small elite and not for the people, a colonial mindset by definition, only in this case the colonial powers derive from the local elite and not from some foreign power.

All the beautiful pictures of northern areas here will not show the streaming piles of garbage thrown down mountains into rivers and streams. Rivers downstream of major cities are full of raw sewage, as is the sea offshore from Karachi, where millions of gallons of raw sewage is dumped everyday. Pesticide and fertilizer runoff only adds another toxic dimension to this situation that nobody wants to talk about.

For example: https://www.dawn.com/news/1318414/o...3-districts-found-unfit-for-human-consumption

A majority of water samples collected from surface and underground sources in 13 districts of Sindh, including all six Karachi districts, by a federal institution in a recent survey have been found to be unfit for human consumption, it emerged on Saturday.]



What's more, there are few plans to built proper landfills and sewage treatment plants to aid the already hopelessly insufficient facilities. And the typical response would be to hide the problem, such as by asking this thread to be deleted, or molded to project a much cleaner image than the reality, and even by attacking those portraying reality on a personal level.

Yes, I know Pakistan, inside and out. :D
 
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Take any issue of social development, such as trash in this thread, or any other, and plot out its steadily worsening issues over decades in Pakistan, and anyone can easily see that it is independent of the type of government in power. The underlying issues of social development only grow worse, and demonstrably so. The conclusion is the governments exist to enrich only a small elite and not for the people, a colonial mindset by definition, only in this case the colonial powers derive from the local elite and not from some foreign power.

All the beautiful pictures of northern areas here will not show the streaming piles of garbage thrown down mountains into rivers and streams. Rivers downstream of major cities are full of raw sewage, as is the sea offshore from Karachi, where millions of gallons of raw sewage is dumped everyday. Pesticide and fertilizer runoff only adds another toxic dimension to this situation that nobody wants to talk about.

What's more, there are few plans to built proper landfills and sewage treatment plants to aid the already hopelessly insufficient facilities. And the typical response would be to hide the problem, such as by asking this thread to be deleted, or molded to project a much cleaner image than the reality.

Yes, I know Pakistan, inside and out. :D
How is it hiding? You should know I am never in favor of hiding our mistakes. Highlighting them is a duty because only by admitting our faults we can fix them. But have you or Solomon ever admitted to faults in America. Criticizing as an outsider is very, very easy.

We all know the trash heaps pile like mountains on the streets of Karachi and it must be pretty much the same everywhere in the country. But do you have a suggestion to make it better? Have you picked up trash from the streets like I have?

I will tell you where there is hope in a seemingly, from an outsiders point of view (or some locals too), hopeless situation. We were walking in the streets of Karachi, me and my colleague and my colleague said "look there are no trashcans here in Pakistan kya karein?," and he threw his garbage onto the street. I said nothing and as we walked further I saw a trashcan and disposed of my own piece of trash. I look back and see I should have stopped my colleague personally when he was throwing trash at an earlier location. But was too young. The first step is calling a wrong a wrong. We are there already, even my colleague knew what he was doing was wrong. Then it is stopping the wrong. We haven't started there yet.

Btw that seems like a side jab at me rather than qouting me and responding. I can see why khafee thinks negatively of you though you have seen how completely I disagree with him. Anyway I will say that outsiders may at times give a balanced view or even a critical view of the country which is much needed because in everyones own eyes his country is perfect which doesn't help.

However despair is not a policy and I say the same to @MastanKhan. Lets work to make the country better. Perhaps we can start a cleanliness drive. Perhaps if each of us sacrifices only 10 ruppees we can feed Pakistanis. I do not want to boast but I have given my first whole salary to poor people in Pakistan and on other poverty alleviating projects. We should all do the same.

Also a long time back my father visited Delhi. The roads were unpaved and litter piled the street like ant mounds. The locals were tired of government inaction and garbage piled on the streets. They themselves picked up shovels and started heaping trash in large trashcans. This is what shows the character of a nations people and I am sorry to say this but India is developing faster than us as a result. AAP won in Delhi because of such work. Anyway point is if the government doesn't do it we should. Of course that's not accepting the situation is normal. In developed countries the governments are not useless.

And we have to keep going, keep trying to make the country better. You won't obviously syed, sitting cosily in America with heaters, ac's and what not and will only complain but I mean we Pakistanis. I would request you not to make a duplicitous claim that you know Pakistan because you are an American! Even I don't know Pakistan because I haven't been everywhere in it. But I believe in Pakistan because if we were still in Lucknow each one of us would be either in jail or dead on every false charge we can imagine.

@WebMaster is there a way we can arrange some sort of cleaning campaign by ourselves. It can start from Multan, Mastan Khan. :)

Also again hopelessness is not a policy. Look at the Indians here on this thread for once. Have they lost hope. I have lived in Lucknow for sometime and have seen the trash dumps in my very neighborhood. But one Indian here is claiming there is no trash in India at all. It signifies hope mixed with what we do not have-the belief that his country is on the right part. But hope is a basic thing even if we do not think we have the right government or are on the right track. All of us should have it.

@Kaptaan @RescueRanger @truthseer @naveedullahkhankhattak Others.
 
How is it hiding? You should know I am never in favor of hiding our mistakes. Highlighting them is a duty because only by admitting our faults we can fix them. But have you or Solomon ever admitted to faults in America. Criticizing as an outsider is very, very easy.

We all know the trash heaps pile like mountains on the streets of Karachi and it must be pretty much the same everywhere in the country. But do you have a suggestion to make it better? Have you picked up trash from the streets like I have?

I will tell you where there is hope in a seemingly, from an outsiders point of view (or some locals too), hopeless situation. We were walking in the streets of Karachi, me and my colleague and my colleague said "look there are no trashcans here in Pakistan kya karein?," and he threw his garbage onto the street. I said nothing and as we walked further I saw a trashcan and disposed of my own piece of trash. I look back and see I should have stopped my colleague personally when he was throwing trash at an earlier location. But was too young. The first step is calling a wrong a wrong. We are there already, even my colleague knew what he was doing was wrong. Then it is stopping the wrong. We haven't started there yet.

Btw that seems like a side jab at me rather than qouting me and responding. I can see why khafee thinks negatively of you though you have seen how completely I disagree with him. Anyway I will say that outsiders may at times give a balanced view or even a critical view of the country which is much needed because in everyones own eyes his country is perfect which doesn't help.

However despair is not a policy and I say the same to @MastanKhan. Lets work to make the country better. Perhaps we can start a cleanliness drive. Perhaps if each of us sacrifices only 10 ruppees we can feed Pakistanis. I do not want to boast but I have given my first whole salary to poor people in Pakistan and on other poverty alleviating projects. We should all do the same.

Also a long time back my father visited Delhi. The roads were unpaved and litter piled the street like ant mounds. The locals were tired of government inaction and garbage piled on the streets. They themselves picked up shovels and started heaping trash in large trashcans. This is what shows the character of a nations people and I am sorry to say this but India is developing faster than us as a result. AAP won in Delhi because of such work. Anyway point is if the government doesn't do it we should. Of course that's not accepting the situation is normal. In developed countries the governments are not useless.

And we have to keep going, keep trying to make the country better. You won't obviously syed, sitting cosily in America with heaters, ac's and what not and will only complain but I mean we Pakistanis. I would request you not to make a duplicitous claim that you know Pakistan because you are an American! Even I don't know Pakistan because I haven't been everywhere in it. But I believe in Pakistan because if we were still in Lucknow each one of us would be either in jail or dead on every false charge we can imagine.

@WebMaster is there a way we can arrange some sort of cleaning campaign by ourselves. It can start from Multan, Mastan Khan. :)

Also again hopelessness is not a policy. Look at the Indians here on this thread for once. Have they lost hope. I have lived in Lucknow for sometime and have seen the trash dumps in my very neighborhood. But one Indian here is claiming there is no trash in India at all. It signifies hope mixed with what we do not have-the belief that his country is on the right part. But hope is a basic thing even if we do not think we have the right government or are on the right track. All of us should have it.

@Kaptaan @RescueRanger @truthseer @naveedullahkhankhattak Others.
Beautifully written rebuttal. If I may, whilst it is very hurtful and vexing to hear bitter words about our motherland we mustn't silence the voices that offer a critical analysis or opposing narrative.

The reason for this is because this makes us love our nation, even more, it is not Pakistan's fault; Pakistan is a chunk of Land, it is an identity, it is the fault of our leaders and the people for not wanting change. I completely agree with your rebuke and if nothing else, as parents we should teach our children to be the ideal that our Quaid wanted us all to be. :)
 

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