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Muslims must save Islam from Islamists

...They'll just say, like Erdogan regarding the discovery of the Americas, that if you don't believe something they claim as fact IS fact then you aren't believing hard enough. ...

I am all for confronting religious zealots including your own zionists. Now that you have cleverly added Erdogan bit into the thing, lets see if you practice what you preach...

Your Zionists must allow others to question things that they want them to blindly believe. And next time do not send anyone to jail or take her job/end her career or label her, if she asks few questions and demands proof.

I expect you to fight for the rights of freedom of speech and show solidarity to the one, whom zionist controlled media labels anti-semite etc.

Are you gonna do that?
 
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They'll just say, like Erdogan regarding the discovery of the Americas, that if you don't believe something they claim as fact IS fact then you aren't believing hard enough. The situation will continue until you elevate facts above bigotry, TankMan - for the religious-minded that means accepting that acknowledging unpleasant truths is of itself the superior act of worship of G-d, regardless of creed or religion.
In that post, I was referring to issues regarding Islamic jurisprudence -Ijtihad and fiqh (the posts I was responding to were about that), not things like Erdogan's little belief. Those can be challenged on another level.

Believe me, I can screw the Mullahs up in most, if not all, cases simply by using the Quran, the same holy book they claim to follow. They can't say I'm not 'believing hard enough', because if they do, their own hypocrisy will be exposed.

Of course, they can tell me I need to read some Tafsir (interpretation/explanation written by humans) or a Hadith, but then I can challenge them on grounds that they value humans' words over the Holy book - and at that point they'll probably start doing something like this:
That's generally why people don't go around confronting them that much.

As for things like Erdogan's belief about the Americas, let me paraphrase the Quran here: "Produce your proof if ye are truthful." - If Muslims discovered the Americas, or if polio drops are some evil plot, or [Insert (stupid) theory], prove it. Simple as that. Give some basis, at least a reference to another source so as to show that they didn't just make it up.
 
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Honourable Syedali73,

My clients listen to my advice on petroleum marketing & refining because they know that with more than 40 years’ experience, my opinion has value. Similarly when you need comments on defence matters, you would turn to a military professional and for medicine one would consult a doctor.

Ordinary mosque going public largely listens to and pays heed to what is preached from the pulpit of a mosque or to fatwa from a well-known scholar. Ordinary folks like you & I, with no religious credentials can shout till the kingdom come, Joe public will ignore it. It is true that Islam has no graded clergy, still a fatwa issued by a scholar from Jama’a Al Azhar carries more weight than one issued by a village mullah.

No other Muslim country except Turkey and possibly Malaysia can be counted as progressive. In my lifetime I have seen South Korea, Brazil, China & India leave Pakistan far behind in everything. Muslim countries have large land mass, large populations and some have enormous wealth but most still lag far behind Western countries. Only way forward for the Muslim Ummah is thru the Ulema coming out of their frog in the well mentality and playing their part.

Ijtehad is the need of the day and it would not come from you or me.

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کیا ضروری ہے خون کھولانا
کسی اور وقت مولانا
 
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Both of you have correct and important points, allow me to contribute a little here:

It is true that Islam does not encourage religious hierarchy at all and encourages people to gain knowledge themselves; however, it does not discourage the concept of having learned people either. There is nothing wrong with having ulema, as long as one does not raise them to the level of Prophets (astaghfirullah) - All ulema are humans and should be challenged on a regular basis.

I am very much and vocally in favor of people having knowledge themselves. But the fact is that the fields of Fiqh, Islamic jurisprudence and Islam in general are very, very vast - there is no way we can master them without devoting our life to them, i.e by making it our profession, which is exactly what ulema and molvis are supposed to be doing.

That is why I agree with @niaz here, we need to have decent ulema to help us solve our problems. After all, even if we focus on individual (Islamic) education for everyone, we will still need someone to actually educate them - they won't, in most occasions, do it on their own.

BUT - What we also need is people to start challenging the mullahs and molvis who propagate wrong things in the name of Islam and rejecting them, allowing for the (relatively rare) decent ulema to actually be productive instead of being dragged into Mullah antics.
I appreciate your analysis. I am not fundamentally disagreeing with you or Niaz Saheb for I myself see the need for modern and enlightened Islamic scholars. However, instead of leaving religious matters solely in the hands of the so-called 'professional' Mullah (or Moulana or Mufti whatever), we should go ahead and take those matters in our own two hands. I even gave example that until few decades ago (verify with your grand parents), the role of the 'professional' mullah was very limited. In the time of Prophet (PBUH) or even in the time of Khulafa and even after them, there was no such thing as 'professional' mullahs. There were Muslims among the rest who were more knowledgeable but that was about it. Those more knowledgeable Muslims were nothing like 'professional' Mullah or Mufti of our time. Those were ordinary professionals with relatively more knowledge about Islam either because of their circumstances or interest.

We are debating here but if I conduct a poll and the participants respond honestly, I bet my friend, 99% of participants here have not finished reading complete Quran let alone with its translation. Those who lash Hadith left and right have not even read few chapters of Bukhari and Muslim let alone other Sihah. With this level of 'knowledge' about Islam, there are only two outcomes as follows:

1. A Muslim who is only Muslim in name, otherwise has nothing to do with Islam (no prayers, no fasting, no zakat, no Hajj) and believes firmly that this (not following any Islamic teachings/requirements) and his Islam is the true Islam. These are the so-called liberal Muslims.

2. A Muslim who is looking towards the so-called 'professional' Mullah for guidance and buys any and everything from those Mullahs as is, for this type of Muslims have no other choice. The result is narrow or closed -minded Muslims who are inclined to become fanatics.

Now, obviously both the above types are not very desirable are they? So in order to avoid that, we need to study Islam so we could repulse ideologies that are spread by the liberals (type-1) and 'professional' mullah (type-2) that go against the fundamental teachings of Islam.

Islam (or any religion for that matter) is not difficult at all. Allah is not going to judge me on how I say my prayers, with hands folded or straight, he will judge me on whether I truly wanted to say prayer, he will judge my 'niyyat' and not the deed per se. We have got ourselves entangled in petty issues, while conveniently ignored that fundamental teachings and requirements (by its followers) of Islam. The professional Mullahs of our time are solicitors, rather pimps (in Urdu we have better words 'دلال' and 'بھڑوا'), who exploit us and our love for Islam. Unfortunately, it is we who have empowered them to exploit us because we don't want to learn religion by ourselves in the pretext that we don't have time for that (learning). In-fact, religion is not our priority; I can always find time to do things that matter me and for those that do not, I have one hundred excuses.

My parents encouraged (but never made or forced) me to study Islamic literature from very beginning. I read Quran (with translation), books of Hadith, Fiqh etc. and work of eminent Islamic scholars (such as tafseer kabeer) etc. I did all this before my matriculation and I studied in a normal public school and no Madrassah by the way. This education enabled me to rely pretty much on my own when it comes to religious matters and not on the advice or guidance of the so-called 'professional' mullah or Mufti. Even if I am in need of a piece of information, I know where to look for rather than asking some religious pimp about it and receiving twisted or doctored information.
 
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Don't believe a word he has said, he is a mixed race fool who has a very large "superiority" complex of sorts. kind of like a mixed race black child shouting "white power". I would not pay him heed. I will just leave this one translated work from The AntiChrist translated by H.L mencken:
Nietzsche on Islam – Bookwright

I know man, the dude is an Italian, and hates everyone but few Western European countries.

Most probably a member of Neo-Nazi or some equally radical cult.

Read some of his post about how he loved that millions of Russians were killed by other Europeans etc.

Just shows you the sick mentality of the person.
 
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I appreciate your analysis. I am not fundamentally disagreeing with you or Niaz Saheb for I myself see the need for modern and enlightened Islamic scholars. However, instead of leaving religious matters solely in the hands of the so-called 'professional' Mullah (or Moulana or Mufti whatever), we should go ahead and take those matters in our own two hands. I even gave example that until few decades ago (verify with your grand parents), the role of the 'professional' mullah was very limited. In the time of Prophet (PBUH) or even in the time of Khulafa and even after them, there was no such thing as 'professional' mullahs. There were Muslims among the rest who were more knowledgeable but that was about it. Those more knowledgeable Muslims were nothing like 'professional' Mullah or Mufti of our time. Those were ordinary professionals with relatively more knowledge about Islam either because of their circumstances or interest.

We are debating here but if I conduct a poll and the participants respond honestly, I bet my friend, 99% of participants here have not finished reading complete Quran let alone with its translation. Those who lash Hadith left and right have not even read few chapters of Bukhari and Muslim let alone other Sihah. With this level of 'knowledge' about Islam, there are only two outcomes as follows:

1. A Muslim who is only Muslim in name, otherwise has nothing to do with Islam (no prayers, no fasting, no zakat, no Hajj) and believes firmly that this (not following any Islamic teachings/requirements) and his Islam is the true Islam. These are the so-called liberal Muslims.

2. A Muslim who is looking towards the so-called 'professional' Mullah for guidance and buys any and everything from those Mullahs as is, for this type of Muslims have no other choice. The result is narrow or closed -minded Muslims who are inclined to become fanatics.

Now, obviously both the above types are not very desirable are they? So in order to avoid that, we need to study Islam so we could repulse ideologies that are spread by the liberals (type-1) and 'professional' mullah (type-2) that go against the fundamental teachings of Islam.

Islam (or any religion for that matter) is not difficult at all. Allah is not going to judge me on how I say my prayers, with hands folded or straight, he will judge me on whether I truly wanted to say prayer, he will judge my 'niyyat' and not the deed per se. We have got ourselves entangled in petty issues, while conveniently ignored that fundamental teachings and requirements (by its followers) of Islam. The professional Mullahs of our time are solicitors, rather pimps (in Urdu we have better words 'دلال' and 'بھڑوا'), who exploit us and our love for Islam. Unfortunately, it is we who have empowered them to exploit us because we don't want to learn religion by ourselves in the pretext that we don't have time for that (learning). In-fact, religion is not our priority; I can always find time to do things that matter me and for those that do not, I have one hundred excuses.

My parents encouraged (but never made or forced) me to study Islamic literature from very beginning. I read Quran (with translation), books of Hadith, Fiqh etc. and work of eminent Islamic scholars (such as tafseer kabeer) etc. I did all this before my matriculation and I studied in a normal public school and no Madrassah by the way. This education enabled me to rely pretty much on my own when it comes to religious matters and not on the advice or guidance of the so-called 'professional' mullah or Mufti. Even if I am in need of a piece of information, I know where to look for rather than asking some religious pimp about it and receiving twisted or doctored information.
You are a hundred percent right, I don't feel the need to argue with a single sentence in this post.

My point in the previous post was that if we are to try to combat the two problems, mullah Muslims and pseudo-liberal Muslims, how would we do it? We would need some form of co-ordination, a movement - even without relying on scholars or professional mullahs, some form of structure would be needed. Otherwise, with the amount of garbage in the world, people practically worshiping piirs and mullahs, a few good Muslims trying to make a stand won't be enough.

Unless we're talking about gradual, long term change, in that case it may work - but then, we risk falling into a situation similar to other religions (in the West, especially), which have practically been abandoned, thanks to a type of Liberalism like the one we're seeing among a few Muslims too.

I personally do not consider myself to be a scholar or anything, just an informed and practicing Muslim. I probably am not as learned as you in Islam, haven't gotten around to finishing the tafseer and haven't read many books on fiqh either, but I have been through the Quran and plenty of Sahih hadiths - enough basics to follow the five pillars properly and know the difference between right and wrong. Though, I'd be grateful If you could recommend some literature to me.
 
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I know man, the dude is an Italian, and hates everyone but few Western European countries.

Most probably a member of Neo-Nazi or some equally radical cult.

Read some of his post about how he loved that millions of Russians were killed by other Europeans etc.

Just shows you the sick mentality of the person.

He can't be a neo nazi he ain't white enough they would stone him to death. I worked in Germany, I know what real neo nazis look like, he would look like one of us to them.

Not white enough, the master race has big shoulders, blue eyes, blond hair and porcelain skin, he has none of that.
 
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They do not have to save any thing. They just have to follow the law in the country they are living in.
 
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Look at the whole issue this way:

Can any religion claim to control the thinking of the entire human population? No? Then why should Muslims try to do that? Their religion teaches them better. In fact, all major religions stress tolerance of diversity of views and thoughts over forcing a single point of view. Present day Muslims would do well to re-learn this important concept.
 
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Look at the whole issue this way:

Can any religion claim to control the thinking of the entire human population? No? Then why should Muslims try to do that? Their religion teaches them better. In fact, all major religions stress tolerance of diversity of views and thoughts over forcing a single point of view. Present day Muslims would do well to re-learn this important concept.

@Jango with reference to our current discussion in another thread, any thoughts on this post?
 
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They do not have to save any thing. They just have to follow the law in the country they are living in.

Even if they follow then things would be the same. In some countries , governments let to violate their own constitution and international conventions and the excuse is given as security. Racism is a problem which people doesn't want to accept.
 
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Muslims must save Islam from Islamists

There is no term like Islamist and it is recent invention by the west. Either somebody is Muslim or Not Muslim but Islamist is a gray shade which is fabricated term. Throw this term into the bin.

How can we Muslims and Non-Muslims save ourselves from fake Muslims is that we identify them as NOT Muslims. People who kill innocents disobey God directly. Allah has forbidden individual wars, forbidden to kill innocents, forbidden to destroy peace in the society and the one who does that deserves punishment under Islamic Laws and that is Capital Punishment. If Islam is followed, we will get rid of these terrorists.

We need to correct is the following;

1 - Stop people who are bracketing Terrorists with Muslims. Terrorists call themselves Muslims but rest of the Muslims do not. Who should you listen to here? Terrorists or to Muslims? Unfortunate that west listens to Terrorists. Obviously they are more important to western media than Muslims. This insanity must be stopped.

2 - Muslims must step up and declare these terrorists as Fitna and Non Muslims unanimously. Pakistan should take this initiative and bring other Muslim countries in gradually.

3 - Preach from Quran and Sunnah and spread the message of Quran in letter and spirit. Terrorists and Western Media both are similar on this aspect that they pick of Quran and quote them out of context and deform its message completely. Media must stop doing what Terrorists are doing.

4 - Educate Muslims more from Quran and Sunnah. Tell them what Allah is telling them. If small Muslim fractions have disagreements, initially council them and if they file to get on the right path, Muslims should fight with them until they get back to the path.

Concluding,
  • Declare terrorists as non-Muslims.
  • Media must not club Terrorists and Muslims.
  • Muslims must spread the message of Quran and Sunnah in letter and spirit.
  • Muslims must launch a military struggle aginst these non-Muslim terrorists.
  • Peple who are creating noise in this process, like Charli Hebdu must be corrected with stick - and they must stop offending over a billion Muslims on the globe. Hatred doesn't sooth people - it never did - it never will.
There is a geo-political aspect to this terrorism and WEST cannot feed their good terrorists and blame their wrong-doings on Islam. Who had fed Taliban in Afghanistan? Who is providing chemical weapons and financial support to Terrorists in Syria? Supporters of Terrorists must be dealt similarly as terrorists should be.

There are no half-right strategies which will work in the war against terrorism. Terrorism is a menace but its the west which is shielding this menace and is causing them to grow more in number by feeding them financially and by clubbing terrorists and Muslims as one. This is heinous crime against humanity and they must quit playing their political games through terrorism.

Ironically, the Taliban barbarians who killed these children were a creation of the Pakistan military, aimed at controlling neighbouring Afghanistan as a satellite state.

Why did the Taliban strike at a military school?
Could it be retaliation for the recent Pakistan army campaign to expel the Taliban out of Pakistan and into Afghanistan?

Your article is a reflection of misguidance and the resistance to learn facts. Your whole article is full of holes but let me guide you a little on Blue and Red part to begin with.

BLUE PART - FACTUALLY WRONG: Pakistan never (NEVER) supported TTP and never strategically never want any interference on the western borders. You can presume Pakistan supported Kashmir Freedom Fighters but supporting TTP blows every bit of reasoning and logic. Pakistan supported Taliban in Afghanistan but NEVER TTP which only operates in Pakistan and against Pakistan. Since you believe PA supported TTP, you better give 1 reason for PA to do that.

RED PART - After 12 years of suffering you think our entire objective is to brush TTP into Afghanistan? Would we not want to KILL the ones who have killed 40,000 of Pakistanis? Will brushing solve problem for us? Who's going to block them in Afghanistan and prevent them from re-entering into Pakistan? We are using war equipment on them, does this in your understanding means a way to "brush TTP out\ into Afghansitan"? Sir your sanity is at question for being this illogical and not just illogical, your mindless post is offensive.

I seriously wish you read this reply and seriously want you to respond to this post. JOIN PDF and respond to these questions. I will tweet you this article. Dare up and Reply!
 
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