Muslims must save Islam from Islamists

[Red Spinifex]

@Horus @Irfan Baloch

By trying to pin the Zionist angle on to Solomon, you are both classically deflecting and projecting.

Fact is, today, there is only one faith whose followers are creating mayhem all over the world. The typical defence of those like you (the so called liberals, moderates, whatever other label fits) is that these people do not represent Islam.

Well, that is for YOU guys to sort out AMONGST YOURSELVES. Who represents what. They (the lunatic fringe) believe even more strongly than you (the liberals, moderates) that YOU do not represent Islam.

Frankly, we (non-muslims) are really not interested. Just please do not keep killing people. Because you are turning every faith away from you.

You know what is most alarming, disappointing, depressing, and at the same time, illuminating. EVERY Muslim I have spoken to in the past few days (educated all) has first condemned the killing. BUT there is always a BUT that follows .....

There is NO BUT guys. Period. If they abuse you or your prophet or your holy book or whatever, even so, THERE IS NO BUT for taking a gun and shooting people, or strapping explosives to your chest and blowing yourself up in a marketplace.

That is what is lost on the entire Muslim community. It is your prophet, your book, your faith. IT MEANS NOTHING TO OTHERS.

Exactly right! Well said, d.g.

 

[Solomon2]

Could you stop pushing an Israeli agenda everywhere you go? Bringing it up everywhere doesn't make your arguments seem any better, and all it does is feed the narrative that says Israelis want to push their agenda everywhere. It's counterproductive for your own cause.

PM Netanyahu's Remarks at the Great Synagogue of Paris ​

11/01/2015

On this day, all citizens of Israel and Jews around the world stand with France and the French people. I greatly appreciate the determined stance of the President of France, Francois Hollande, and Prime Minister Valls against any expression of anti-Semitism or anti-Zionism and against terror. This stance is important to France and it is important to the world.

I wish to convey my condolences to the families of the journalists and police and all those innocent people who were murdered while realizing their most basic rights: freedom of expression, freedom of thought and freedom of belief, even the freedom not to believe. These are the values on which modern France is built and these are values that are worth fighting for.

Today I marched through the streets of Paris, in one line with leaders from around the world, in order to say that terror must end. It is time that we fight against terror together. And I would like to use this opportunity to salute the French security forces who acted with remarkable bravery, as well as to express my appreciation to the Malian, who is a Muslim, who helped save seven Jews.

My dear brothers and sisters, I came here from Jerusalem, the eternal capital of Israel, to share in your pain over the murders of Francois-Michel, Philippe, Yoav and of Yohan, who bravely tried to grab the terrorist's gun and was fatally wounded. The memory of our four holy brothers will be forever engraved on the hearts of our people.

Unfortunately the people of Israel have experienced this pain. We have experienced it many times because we have been fighting against terror for many years, and like many in Israel, I am personally familiar with the wounds of terror as well as the agony of bereavement. As a soldier, I was wounded in an operation to free hostages who had been kidnapped on a Sabena airplane. My late brother, Yoni, was killed in Entebbe when rescuing the hostages kidnapped on an Air France airplane. For years, the best of our sons and daughters were killed in many terror attacks, and the finest of our fighters fell in heroic battles against terrorism, including just recently during Operation Protective Edge.

Today we bow our heads in memory of the victims in Paris. However, as representatives of an ancient and proud people, we stand tall against evil because we can overcome it. "The more they were oppressed, the more they multiplied and spread" – because truth and justice are on our side. And here is the truth: Our shared enemy is radical Islam, not Islam and not just radicals – radical Islam. This form of Islam has many names: ISIS, Hamas, Boko Haram, al-Qaeda, al-Nusra, al-Shabab, Hezbollah; but they are all branches from the same poison tree.

Although the various factions of radical Islam are given to local bloody conflicts, including amongst themselves, they all share the same aspiration: To impose a dark tyranny on the world, to return humanity one thousand years to the past. They trample anyone who does not share their path, first and foremost their Muslim brothers, but their greatest hatred is saved for Western culture, that same culture that respects freedom and equal rights – all the things they so despise.

For this reason it is not a coincidence that radical Islam has sought to destroy Israel from the very day it declared its independence: Because Israel is the only Western democracy in the Middle East, because Israel is the only place that is truly safe for Christians, women, minorities, that respects all human rights.

Well, here is another truth: Radical Islam does not hate the West because of Israel. It hates Israel because it is an organic part of the West. It rightly views Israel as an island of Western democracy and tolerance in an ocean of fanaticism and violence that it wishes to impose on the Middle East, Europe and the entire world.
Israel is not under attack because of this or that detail of its policies, but rather because of its very existence and nature. But we are not the only ones under attack. Look around you: The entire world is under attack, the entire world – the Twin Towers in New York, the subways in London and Madrid, tourists in Bali, students at schools in Russia and Pakistan, a hotel in Mumbai, the mall in Nairobi.

A very short path connects the issuing of the fatwa against the author Salman Rushdie, the murder of Theo van Gogh in Holland and the attacks on Jews in Israel and around the world – it is a short distance from this to the murderous attacks in Paris on the office of Charlie Hebdo and the kosher supermarket not far from here. These are not isolated actions and we must see what they have in common. Otherwise we will not be able to fight against terror in methodical and consistent manner.

We must recognize that there is a global network of radical Islam at work – a network of hatred, fanaticism and murder. I believe that this threat will only grow larger when thousands of terrorists come to Europe from the killing fields of the Middle East. The danger will grow much greater and will become a serious threat to humanity at large if radical Islam gains control over nuclear weapons, and therefore we must use all means to prevent Iran from acquiring an atomic weapon. We must support each other in this fateful struggle against radical Islamic fanatics wherever they are.

Israel stands with Europe and Europe must stand with Israel. As the civilized world today stands with France against terror, so must it stand with Israel against terror. It is the exact same terror. Those who slaughtered Jews in the synagogue in Jerusalem and those who slaughtered Jews and journalists in Paris belong to the same murderous terrorist movement. They should be condemned in the same measure and they must be fought in the same manner.

Only when the international community fights our shared enemy in a uniform manner will we know that we are on the path to victory. I promise you: Israel will continue to fight against terror. Israel will continue to defend itself and we know that when we defend ourselves, we defend the entire civilized world.

Therefore, brothers and sisters, Jews of France, I would like to say to you what I say to our Jewish brothers and sisters from all countries: You have the full right to live in safety and tranquility as citizens with equal rights wherever you wish, including here in France. But Jews of our time have been blessed with another right, a right that did not exist for previous generations of Jews: The right to join their Jewish brothers and sisters in our historic homeland, the Land of Israel; the right to live in our free country, the one and only Jewish state, the State of Israel; the right to stand tall and proud at the walls of Zion, our eternal capital of Jerusalem.

Any Jew who wishes to immigrate to Israel will be welcomed with open arms and warm and accepting hearts. They will not arrive in a foreign land but rather the land of our forefathers. God willing, they will come and many of you will come to our home. Am Yisrael Chai.

****

Solomon2 comment: So it is that the often-reviled Bibi Netanyahu honors Muslims and places Islamist terror in an understandable and consistent context. He can do this because unlike many - including a Europe which is uncertain of itself - Israel can and has built a nation-state in the face of evil.

It is worth noting at moments like this that the official attitude of the Pakistani government is that any representation of Israel which threatens its current anti-Israel stance "challenge(s) the ideology and principles of Pakistan, and/or perspective of the government of Pakistan." So Pakistanis are not only victims of militant extremism but as of now nonetheless are expected to be its unquestioning supporters. As one writer in Dawn, Moeed Yusuf, put it today:

....We absolve ourselves of our responsibility to listen to millions of common citizens questioning the system’s efficacy by declaring them as antithetical to the democratic spirit. In reality, they are not. They do not want the marching boots to take over; nor do they want any revolution, secular or religious. We have enough surveys and polls to prove this. All they are telling us is that the current political discourse is missing the point: that this system is supposed to deliver to these millions but it isn’t concerned about them...

...every debate on politics in Pakistan boils down to a concern about protecting praetorian interests over the common man’s needs — even laws and rules are brought in with an eye to cement the elitist interests of the powers that be.

If we want to see a truly democratic Pakistan, we must begin to talk in specifics about what it will take to force this system to evolve in the right direction. We must have the stomach to stand for transformative changes. We must stand to undercut perverse elite interests even if these include our own. We must focus on the common man, on the substantive delivery of services and justice, as the centrepiece of our discourse.

The only alternative I can see is for us to stand by and see Pakistan implode sooner or later.

 

[VCheng]

The only alternative I can see is for us to stand by and see Pakistan implode sooner or later.

This is no "alternative". This is the likely outcome since any meaningful changes mentioned by the author are highly unlikely.

 

[aks18]

Army schools are indeed "elite schools" compared to regular government-run schools, relatively speaking.

army schools are not elite schools but are well disciplined and maintained school same like army as a institution is well maintained and well disciplined unlike civil government

 

[VCheng]

army schools are not elite schools but are well disciplined and maintained school same like army as a institution is well maintained and well disciplined unlike civil government

Compared to the regular government schools, the army schools are indeed elite. There is no denying this fact.

 

[TankMan]

I'm not an Israeli. I realize pushing this causes you stress. But it's hard to argue that if Israel was accepted that wouldn't be a huge blow to terrorism everywhere, yes?

I never said you were an Israeli. I said you seem to be obsessed with Israel. Pushing it doesn't cause me any stress,but it detracts the argument.
Israel being accepted wouldn't be a blow to terrorism. Quite the opposite, actually - now they'll have another point in their narrative against the governments of Muslim countries. They're already saying that Pakistan's government and establishment are Western/Jewish/Zionist/Alien puppets - by trying to get people to ''accept Israel'' (bow at its feet, basically), you're actually helping the terrorist narrative. They won't lose support. They'll gain support. You are greatly mistaken.

My comment was indeterminate so your objection is a red herring.

There was no indication of your comment being indeterminate. Thus, my objection is legitimate.

Important, yet you can't always count on people learning the right stuff the first time. You have to concentrate on changing minds, teaching the importance of unlearning and relearning. Doing so will open minds and of itself help reduce fanaticism.

Always agreed with this point, never said the contrary. I'm not counting on people learning the right stuff the first time as much as I'm counting on them to think about alternatives to what their mullahs tell them. That is, in essence, changing and opening minds.

Of course, doing so requires decreasing or eliminating the hubris inculcated into Muslims for generations - that Muslms have rights/are right because they are Muslim, not because of what they do/didn't do, facts, etc.

Ironically, that is a fundamental concept in Islam - that people are accountable for their deeds and not their affiliations. The cause of this, again, is hypocritical political-mullahs who preach parts of the religion that benefit them, while twisting the same religion to excuse their own hypocrisy.

Charlie Henbo, the Twin Towers, the success of Jews free of Muslim domination, these are all blows to some Muslims' pride and that's what drives them to kill and others to condone/apologize for their acts.

Not the only thing, not in the slightest. There is always political motive, psychopathy or both involved. Any 'pride' that exists is irrational - pride is condemned in Islam. So they're practically trying to be proud of their religion by disobeying it.

On the contrary, UNRWA has followed a terror-building agenda for generations; it's just that men like yourself will yourselves not to acknowledge this.

This part is hilarious - do you actually believe that Israeli propaganda about the UN itself creating terrorism? Good God, and I used to laugh at the people who said Jews controlled the UN, never thought that theory's polar opposite was popular, never mind taken seriously.

If UNRWA is aiding 'terrorism', get the UN to pull the plug on it. Raise the issue in the UN. Israel surely would've done that if it had any evidence. But then, it'd be pretty hypocritical to use that organization, considering Israel's constant disobedience of UN resolutions. Truly a rogue state.

I will not believe any wild (to say the least) conspiracy theories, which are based solely on hated for a particular people. Of course, anyone who dares help Palestinians must be a terrorist. How obvious. Zionist logic at its best.

 

[Solomon2]

Israel being accepted wouldn't be a blow to terrorism. Quite the opposite, actually - now they'll have another point in their narrative against the governments of Muslim countries. They're already saying that Pakistan's government and establishment are Western/Jewish/Zionist/Alien puppets - by trying to get people to ''accept Israel'' (bow at its feet, basically), you're actually helping the terrorist narrative. They won't lose support. They'll gain support. You are greatly mistaken.

The Islamists are already the enemies of many governments. Leaders are already at risk. Siding with Israel will probably increase that hatred only marginally while it will inspire not just hatred but hope in the masses - and may have the salutary effect of flushing the terror rats out of the sewers and stews they breed in, leaving a cleaner society behind.

Ironically, that is a fundamental concept in Islam - that people are accountable for their deeds and not their affiliations. The cause of this, again, is hypocritical political-mullahs who preach parts of the religion that benefit them, while twisting the same religion to excuse their own hypocrisy.

It should be obvious, then, that supporting Israel over its twisting hypocritical enemies is a must. No surprise. In discussions with Zionists the Caliphs always expressed understanding that without the Ottomans Arab Muslims would likely violate their obligations, Koranic and otherwise, to non-Muslims.

Not the only thing, not in the slightest. There is always political motive, psychopathy or both involved. Any 'pride' that exists is irrational - pride is condemned in Islam. So they're practically trying to be proud of their religion by disobeying it.

This part is hilarious - do you actually believe that Israeli propaganda about the UN itself creating terrorism? Good God, and I used to laugh at the people who said Jews controlled the UN, never thought that theory's polar opposite was popular, never mind taken seriously.If UNRWA is aiding 'terrorism', get the UN to pull the plug on it.

Apparently you know nothing about this matter. Yes, UNRWA has to follow the Hamas or P.A. curriculum. Thus we have a U.N. organization, UNRWA, that denies the Jewish Holocaust documented by the U.N. itself. There are many other examples.

I will not believe any wild (to say the least) conspiracy theories, which are based solely on hated for a particular people.

Well, you have a problem: prejudice that flies in the face of facts. It is, as I've pointed out before, an all-too-common Pakistani characteristic.

Of course, anyone who dares help Palestinians must be a terrorist. How obvious. Zionist logic at its best.

You do know, don't you, that Israeli doctors supply critical health care to thousands of Arabs from Gaza and the West Bank and Syria? Israelis do not count such charity as terrorism nor the medical personnel as terrorists.

 

[TankMan]

The Islamists are already the enemies of many governments. Leaders are already at risk. Siding with Israel will probably increase that hatred only marginally while it will inspire not just hatred but hope in the masses - and may have the salutary effect of flushing the terror rats out of the sewers and stews they breed in, leaving a cleaner society behind.

Yes, they are enemies with governments- that is my point. Siding with Israel may not increase hatred in those already radicalized, but it definitely will, massively, in those who are 'on the edge' and many that are not. The mullahs will get a jackpot, a perfect point to milk and get even more recruits. Besides that, most of the population will highly disapprove of it. There's no point suddenly ''accepting Israel''.

Both countries have nothing to negotiate over and nothing to gain from eachother in the short term, there is no logical (from a political perspective) reason to take that step, go against public opinion and go out of our way to begin relations. There is no cover story - and the headlines will be ''Government succumbs to Israeli/Zionist/American/Alien pressure/bribe/threats/mind-control''. Perfect point to use if you want to raise an uneducated and gullible rabble.

Won't have any 'salutary' effect. If you think that accepting Israel will lead to a cleaner society in Pakistan (or any other similar country), you have a serious lack of understanding of their social dynamic, along with a serious case of propaganda brainwash.

It should be obvious, then, that supporting Israel over its twisting hypocritical enemies is a must.

Is there no choice between one terrorist and another? What's the point choosing anyways? You're talking as if Israel isn't twisting or hypocritical. It is,very. Besides, there are plenty of non-hypocritical Muslims and Muslim leaders out there.

In discussions with Zionists the Caliphs always expressed understanding that without the Ottomans Arab Muslims would likely violate their obligations, Koranic and otherwise, to non-Muslims.

Which Caliphs, exactly? Has nothing to do with Arab Muslims as a whole. You're blowing this out of proportion, then into various proportions, to fit your narrative and obvious Israeli propaganda.

It's not Arab Muslims. No problem with being Arab, no problem with being Muslim and no problem with being Arab and Muslim at the same time. The Arab Muslims these ''Caliphs'' would have referred to were the Arab leaders. Obviously, leaders would turn a little corrupt and stray from morality without having someone (like the Ottomans) constantly pressurizing them. That's the way human nature is ; power corrupts.

Apparently you know nothing about this matter. Yes, UNRWA has to follow the Hamas or P.A. curriculum. Thus we have a U.N. organization, UNRWA, that denies the Jewish Holocaust documented by the U.N. itself. There are many other examples.

The UN Refugee Agency has to follow a curriculum? How does a refugee agency follow school curriculum? You mean UNRWA-run schools? There's a problem with their school framework and protocol, unless their mandate involves working under the local authorities.

Well, you have a problem: prejudice that flies in the face of facts

Facts? Facts such as a guy on the internet telling me stuff about a situation he's clearly biased towards? Establish that said things are fact, then I'll consider altering my opinion.

It is, as I've pointed out before, an all-too-common Pakistani characteristic.

And self-righteous grandiosity, coupled with prejudice, that flies in the face of facts is an all-too-common Zionist characteristic.

There are no facts here. You're trying to convince me of something controversial, with a variety of opinions and lots of conflicting reports. Both sides claim their narrative to be facts. Whose facts do we listen to? Of course you'll say yours and they'll say theirs. Accepting your 'facts' would be a very gullible, naive and ill-considered thing to do - the same as listening to Mullahs.

Israeli doctors supply critical health care to thousands of Arabs from Gaza and the West Bank

Yes, while killing and injuring them on the other side. How thoughtful of them.

and Syria

This part is interesting. While Israel has helped many refugees and non-combatants from Syria, which is an admirable gesture, many of those it did help were the Syrian rebels - the same people out of whom many joined and formed ISIS - and the ones who served Israeli regional interests by weakening Syria and Assad.

Besides, some good acts don't justify the bad ones. Apply the same logic you apply to Pakistan. Pakistan helps in a lot of aid missions, but you never refrained from condemning us for everything. I never doubted that good Israelis exist (e.g the soldiers and doctors helping with humanitarian aid), but the leadership and political goals - not good.

Israelis do not count such charity as terrorism nor the medical personnel as terrorists.

That's because its Israelis doing it - Israelis don't count Israeli terrorism as terrorism nor the terrorists as terrorists, either.

 

[Hindustani78]

Then people should protest/oppose in democratic way in a democratic country. Security of people comes first than constitution.

If constitution is being followed then automatically it will create harmony in the society.