Musharraf’s book-launch in September

[Lahori paa jee]

Those are excellent posts. I appreciate what you say.

 

[Lahori paa jee]

Lahori,

Asim and many others do not believe in Civilian rule. Pakistan is being run like the ancient Sparta. A military state. Army is not for Pakistan, Pakistan is for the Army. It is really easy to then come to power. It goes a bit like this:

"Look India will attack you, Civilian politicians can't protect you, let the Army be in power"

This school of thought has been used for decades by not only Musharraf but all previous military dictators. Not just in Pakistan, but elsewhere too.

Hitler used: "Jews will take over the country"
Mao used: "Let's fight the imperialistic Americans"
etc. etc.

I'm not a student of political sciences, nor do I claim to know it all. But I guess this psyche is what drives Pakistan repeatedly into military rule.

Now don't blame the Army, it is for the people to break out of this psyche. Remember the Army itself is constituted by the people of Pakistan.

In India, class 4, everybody is taught basic civics. While I'm not the biggest fan of the Indian education system, but one thing it does is it seperates the following:

- Civilian Politics
- Beurocracy
- Judiciary
- Religion
- Military

All these critical components of any country need to be seperated. You need an impartial education system to seperate them in the minds of every Pakistani citizen.

Getting rid of Musharraf won't change a thing. After Musharraf there will be yet another American sponsored dictator. Or else there will be Civilian rule like at the times of BB and NS, but even back then the Army top brass dictated orders.

Yes, Lahori. NS came to power because of initial Army support. Even you cannot possibly deny that and not be lying. Same with BB, remember her hardline stance on Kashmir back in the early 90's. It was to please the Army.

After the 1948 war the one issue which has overshadowed evrything in Pakistan is Kashmir. Despite the three or four wars it has remained as it was and provides a pretext for keeping a huge army. Which has drained Pakistan of it resources just to keep alive a worthless institution.

That fact is almost every politician Pakistan had to this date has found his/her way to top with armies help. Be it Zulfiqar ali bhutto, Nawaz Sharif and the bunch of those who keep changing their loyalties as per the wish of establishment.

Ayub Khan used to all Zulfiqar his son, who addressed Ayub as son. Same is the case with Nawaz and Zia.

Its only when these politicians come in power that they realise and fail to tolerate armies constant interference in public matters

Apart from all this a huge majority of our population has always supported military and consider them as their only saviours. Its a mind set which can never change or perhaps its never allowed to change. The army represents itself as if only they can save our country and no one else. Unfortunately it has been opposite. All the wars have happened during the time when there was military rule in Pakistan. We we even lost East Pakistan and yet that was in National Interest.

Its easy to punish and hold politicians answerable for their misdeeds but i ask: How many generals and officers have been held accountable to this date. Even those who lost Bangladesh were termed as heros and lived their lives to the full without any shame or regrets.

 

[Srirangan]

You mean a stable state or nation-state.

Doesn't really matter, these are just technicalities dependant on interpretations.

Those are excellent posts. I appreciate what you say.

* bows * Thanks!

After the 1948 war the one issue which has overshadowed evrything in Pakistan is Kashmir. Despite the three or four wars it has remained as it was and provides a pretext for keeping a huge army. Which has drained Pakistan of it resources just to keep alive a worthless institution.

Yep right on. As long as Kashmir is an issue, Pakistan Army will justify almost anything using Kashmir and boogeyman of India as an excuse. But then you can't blame only the Army, I have no doubt that even civilian politicians
on your side and mine, would not hesitate using it as an issue.

That's their job. To use emotional subjects that gets the people rallied and gets them to power. Who can forget Benzir Bhutto shouting "Azaadi, Buland Azaadi" in the early 90's? Today she is giving interview to every major Indian Television and Print media talking "peace, peace, peace!"

One thing I've learnt. Never trust any politician. All you have to do is make sure there are checks and balances in the system. Luckily the system here in India has a lot of checks and balances. Nobody can run away with absolute power.

We are just too big a country for one party, person, group to have absolute power. I think the diversity and constant political chaos is what makes India stable overall.

Apart from all this a huge majority of our population has always supported military and consider them as their only saviours. Its a mind set which can never change or perhaps its never allowed to change. The army represents itself as if only they can save our country and no one else.

Exactly. It is the age old problem-solution mechanism, goes a bit like this:
1. Create a problem
2. Wait for mass panic
3. Provide your solution

How do you break out of this chain? Education. And that means modern education with all the reforms done to the system. Like it or not, the British education system is excellent and the Indian system (especially the higher education part) is a direct derivative of the same. I don't know about the education system in Pakistan, so obviously I cannot comment.

Unfortunately it has been opposite. All the wars have happened during the time when there was military rule in Pakistan. We we even lost East Pakistan and yet that was in National Interest.

Read the Musharraf Manuscripts? He says he did Kargil because the Indian Army was trying to attack your parts of Kashmir. How true is that, we all know.

Musharraf is again trying to cover his tracks, not many will beleive him and he'll not only hurt his own personal credibility with such absurd claims, but will also end up reflecting badly on entire Pakistan.

Its easy to punish and hold politicians answerable for their misdeeds but i ask: How many generals and officers have been held accountable to this date.

That's interesting. Here we have a lot of vendetta politics. Back south in the state of Tamil Nadu, there are two main party's: DMK and AIADMK. Whenever elections occur and one of them comes in power, atleast a dozen cases are instantly slapped on the opposition party's leaders.

It's stupid. And it is pathetic to see these netas and leaders using the State machinery for their pathetic vendetta politics rather than serving the State/Nation. :wall:

 

[sparten]

The Spartan anaology is rather unfortunate if you are an Indian. After all Sparta defeated the "democratic" Athens in the Pelopennesian War.

 

[Srirangan]

The Spartan anaology is rather unfortunate if you are an Indian. After all Sparta defeated the "democratic" Athens in the Pelopennesian War.

Indeed it did.

But do you not notice that it was only a comparison, not a prophecy?

Or is the one-upmanship so important to you that you would ignore the crux of my post and just comment about something so trivial.

Sparta beat Athens so Pakistan will beat India. Ok? Be happy now while your leader takes your nation for a ride.

 

[genmirajborgza786]

i think the education reform along with some check and balance in the distribution of wealth would realy help as srirangan sayed the british education system is perhaps the best example and i support it coz we need it, it will only help pakistan in the long runs today there are many stable education system,s around the world you will find that has derived its basics from the british educational system india,even canada ,turkey,sri lanka,malaysia, egypt and uae are a few example's to be found its high time we have it done in pakistan reforms in the education sector is a must and we cannot avoid it any further that's for sure.

 

[Awesome]

so anybody get he book yet?

 

[Awesome]

oh wait there's still sometime, for it to be released in new york

 

[Srirangan]

so anybody get he book yet?

I've skimmed through the manuscripts. It read like an election manifesto.

 

[Lahori paa jee]

Dont waste your money guys

 

[Skeptic786]

I dont mind him publishing any book that he feels like but I hope he is not going to do the touring on Government expenses. That would be bad. Secondly, dont you have to take an oath as the President of Pakistan, not to divulge any info which may be against national interests?. If ha cant do that, then I dont know what he will write about. Certainly his personal life could make some saucy reading, for he has a reputation in the Army.
Ah well we shall wait and see.
Araz

By the time he flies home....he will have done all the things mentioned in your post.

 

[Awesome]

Sri truth of the matter is The Army only butted in at times of crisis not to weild any power or thrust some dictatorship.

Musharraf's case is no different. Compare the defaulting Pakistan of 1999 to the rising nation and economy of todays Pakistan. Compare the mega development projects. Gwadar, Roads, railways. Musharraf's tenure has uplifted Pakistan from default to a promising future. Decades of mismanagement cannot be undone overnight... But he has done it in 7 years. From here we go forward.

 

[Srirangan]

Sri truth of the matter is The Army only butted in at times of crisis not to weild any power or thrust some dictatorship.

A crisis is only a precursor to come to power. Create the problem, provide the solution. Politicians use this a lot, so why not an Army that wants to venture into politics.

Each and every passing day, I am more convinced that Kargil was done in order to get Musharraf into power.

Musharraf's case is no different. Compare the defaulting Pakistan of 1999 to the rising nation and economy of todays Pakistan. Compare the mega development projects. Gwadar, Roads, railways. Musharraf's tenure has uplifted Pakistan from default to a promising future. Decades of mismanagement cannot be undone overnight... But he has done it in 7 years. From here we go forward.

True, but aren't you giving Musharraf too much credit? Would he have been able to do any of this if U.S. aid hadn't poured in in the billions after 9/11.

If Uncle Sam was sponsoring, anybody could boost the economy of the country. So what's so special about Musharraf here? Even Nawaz could have, so could have BB or any other.

 

[Awesome]

A crisis is only a precursor to come to power. Create the problem, provide the solution. Politicians use this a lot, so why not an Army that wants to venture into politics.

Create the problem?

But Musharraf did not create the problem that funded NS's pvt estate in Raiwind.

He did not make NS change the constitution to remove Article 58-2b which gives the President the power to remove any Prime Minister if he's found guilty of mis-governance.

He was not the one who asked NS to storm the Supreme court of Pakistan with thugs and hold him hostage till he resigns.

He wasn't the one who made the thugocracy in Pakistan.

Each and every passing day, I am more convinced that Kargil was done in order to get Musharraf into power.

Read Musharraf's book. In it he explains his reasons for Kargil. I'm waiting for my copy which should take anywhere between today and a week to arrive but I know that he stated India's troops were slowly creeping forward and he wanted to regain that territoriy.

True, but aren't you giving Musharraf too much credit? Would he have been able to do any of this if U.S. aid hadn't poured in in the billions after 9/11.

Even without US Aid we held about $3Bn in forex which is way about the $650mn technical defaulting stage. If NS would've been in power he would've given that money off in subsidies. In his GW Uni address he explained that he had too options either to give that money to better the human resource, or press on with economic uplift to get more breathing space in reserves which could then be used for HRD.

One of my most respected former online member, Sinopak, so well pointed out that pro-poor policies would've just made more poor within Pakistan. A man like NS who needed votes would've just done that. Minus all the corruption of course too.

 

[Skeptic786]

A crisis is only a precursor to come to power. Create the problem, provide the solution. Politicians use this a lot, so why not an Army that wants to venture into politics.

Each and every passing day, I am more convinced that Kargil was done in order to get Musharraf into power.

True, but aren't you giving Musharraf too much credit? Would he have been able to do any of this if U.S. aid hadn't poured in in the billions after 9/11.

If Uncle Sam was sponsoring, anybody could boost the economy of the country. So what's so special about Musharraf here? Even Nawaz could have, so could have BB or any other.

The truth is america and its allies crippled pakistan's economy from 1990-2001 in order to pressurise it to give up nuclear weapons.

After 2001 they reversed themselves and boasted pakistan's economy.....even if brain dead monkey was incharge he would not have been able to reverse any of the two decisions which were implemented outside of Pakistan;s influence.

Though one thing is certain pakistan was sold cheap for its cooperation ;

For help of egypt in the first gulf war---its entire national debt was repaid by america.....to keep Turkey sweet....america has injected cash worth entire Pakistan's national debt in the last few years.

what did we get?

1 billion cancelled in debt, debt rescheduling and sodomised f16s which we have to pay $5 billion.

All other steps cannot be taken as favours since america and its allies were subjecting a poor nation of 160 million souls to the worst kind of sanctions after iraq from 1990-2001. Shame on them for having done so.