Musharraf seeks army’s role in governance

[fatman17]

How much does Musharaf matter in Pakistan today ?

Is he relevant or are such utterances an attempt to stay relevant ?

@fatman17

spent bullet.....he should just fade away......there is no need for army to dabble is politics....its (army) got its hands full.

 

[Viper0011.]

Black sheep are everywhere i am not saying curreption is not in army but relativily less than any other orginization in Pakistan.
how many politicians have their sons and daughters served in Army where every other house or neighbour have one soilders.. mainly prob is that soilders get retirment and they cant transfer their power to their relatives.. where politician have this luxury to transfer. and they are always in power thats why they dont leave country. we have to decide whos working for islam and then for Pakistan..

Dude, you are mixing Apples, Oranges, Peaches and Nectrines all together. These are different questions:

1) Corruption "seems" relatively less in the military because there is no accountability. The US along sent 10 billion to Musharraf.....where did it go? The military didn't get all of it, the Civilians didn't get it......where did it all go?? Divided between Musharraf and other buddies, namely within the military circles!

2) These housing societies like Defense and all.....where tdo you think they get the money from? And how do you think they acquire super cheap land that if you or I were to acquire, it'll be 100 times more expensive.......think about it. There are PLENTY of benefits of being in the military

3) Politicians are politicians everywhere. But they are also what people elect. Two different worlds. Then if someone isn't happy being a military man because of the perks of the civilian life, then why be in the military? Get out and get into commercial sector and make the big money and be a politician, no one's stopping you. But you can't criticize one world because of you being a part of the other or just having affiliates.

4) Now who is working for Islam and for Pakistan. I don't want to touch this subject as its not my place. I respect all religions. But do you think the violence mongering and attacks on Parliament that IK is doing are justified by Islam? Do you think Musharraf can overnight come and seize the entire capital and then become a forceful "president" because he had the military's backing......do you think that Islamic? He dragged out the SC judges who refused to break the constitution, he tortured a couple of them and humiliated all of them. Was that Islamic?
Let's leave the religion out of this, people do what they want to do and bring religion for convenience sake to justify wrong doings.

 

[Gufi]

Fully approved by Army? why bother about appointing civilians when they would have to seek approval from the army to get into office. Why not every Pakistani get an approval from army before going to school, before giving births, before getting CNIC, before filing tax returns, before dying?

with no disrespect to any single politician the system is messed up. Let me ask you what accountability has there been in these years with billions missing in tax dollars and projects so expensive that they could be built cheaper anywhere else in the world. When the whole cabinet is filled with close family and your party's own MPAs MNAs are saying that we are ignored you turn a blind eye is that democracy. Killing of innocents is that what is termed as democracy. Remember when you have a shrinking middle class and the educated unemployed that is when the system is failing. The projects are great that are coming but at what expense are they coming? We have mega projects with no care for the masses, we have a brutal police, and more money spent on ministers monthly allowance then sent to Thar to stop children STARVING to death.. for me sir democracy has failed when people starve and the rulers debate in forums, for me it fails when we are brutal to the blind, or shoot the innocent. For me democracy fails when other leaders block cities or ruin the life of people for months end or when the government traps people in between containers. Sir the debate is non ending the only thing I ask is that leaders be held accountable for their actions. Just because today we are not in an area of national calamity we should not forget those who are. In which world will this government or the next be held accountable or in which age will the education and experience matter to take on a ministry.

1) When someone joins the Army (and any country for that matter), they join out of sheer patriotism to fight against the enemy and safeguard its people. These soldiers very well know that they may have to sacrifice their lives for the country. But since when, their patriotism should be used as an excuse to overtake a running democratic system or use force and put marshal laws in?

When someone joins politics he promises to look after the people of Pakistan and look after their rights. You want to debate the standard of life of Pakistanis in these last two tenures? When you join public office you do it for the people not for your own business. When you join public office you appoint people according to merit. When you are elected you look after the people who elected you.
I guess you misunderstood me when i said public service i meant as a democratically elected official not as a public sector worker. maybe that was my mistake but the point is that the politicians are getting richer while the voters are struggling.

If there wasn't military's intervention in Pakistan, Pakistan would've been to a place in early 80's where it is finally headed now economically, with NS's team bringing huge projects and billions of investments inside Pakistan.

Sir have you ever read on those projects in detail? yes some of them are good but they do not give us the cheap electricity promised nor are they financially sound. The money brought in is MOUs which may or may not come to be reality. I was as optimistic as you are now about the said projects, i guess 32 billion from China being on the forefront of those projects but they need to see the light of day sooner then what is happening. As for bringing in projects you forget the number of jobs and companies created in Musharafs era or maybe you forget who built the only large dams in Pakistan. In a perfect world i would love democracy but there are no checks and balances and in Pakistan what a ruling class person does with the common man is degrading and inhumane at times. And the only real election for the people was the area elections i forget the term but they are known as baldiyati elections here, and they were held lst during a dictatorship so yes sometimes things are not as they seem.

That prosperity show in Musharraf's time, should be a thank you to the American tax payers like myself.

sir as much as those tax dollars helped the man brought to this country media channels, many multinational banks, and telecommunication companies. That created more jobs than have been created in the so called democratic era unless you consider adding more people to an already over staffed PIA and railway.

The only thing Musharraf now needs to do, is to accept old age. Same for IK, Zardri, and same for NS after this term. These people need to retire and let the new talent come up.

How much do you want to bet their children will not come after them.


With no disrespect you live in the US and you read about Pakistan and take decisions based on the news. the issues plaguing this country stem from bad governance and what this country needs is honest men working for Pakistan.

 

[Leader]

Military rule is the biggest agent of status quo. If it perpetuates, it stunts nation's political evolution.

Since 2008, Pakistan has come a long way. No matter how corrupt the system has been, a lot of people have understood that these parties are corrupt and there can be better democracy than civilian dictatorship of PPP and PMLN.

At the beginning of 2008, PMLN and PPP were heroes of democracy. This is what Musharraf regime had done our minds. We thought these fraudsters were democrats. Now we know they are nothing but fraud.

The above para is just a small lesson in history and one that can change our destiny. Look at military rules sine 1977. There were two of them. No doubt when the general ruled, the governance was better but their rule left more mess in the wake than the good they did.

The only way forward is to move with civilian rule. Make it better. Make some effort instead of taking a lethargic view of things and expect military to do everything for us.

ABSOLUTELY !

how on earth does army fit into politics, is just plain ridiculous.. politics in apolitical institutions destroys the institution.

we the people of Pakistan need to stand up against corrupt politicians, and cast them out, and also reign the influence of army, and stop looking at them as an alternative, which only bring temporary relief but actually weakens the country.

 

[Waffen SS]

Even after losing half the country to India, these so-called patriotic military officers have this sense of superiority about themselves. That's incredibly lame. Are they not taught history?

The taliban have given a real thrashing to this super-duper army and still they have the nerve to question the bloody civilians.

I refuse to be questioned by those who were holed up in Miranshah for years after years as if North Waziristan was some Star Wars outpost on another galaxy billions of light years away from home.

ABSOLUTELY !

how on earth does army fit into politics, is just plain ridiculous.. politics in apolitical institutions destroys the institution.

we the people of Pakistan need to stand up against corrupt politicians, and cast them out, and also reign the influence of army, and stop looking at them as an alternative, which only bring temporary relief but actually weakens the country.

I agree to your every word

but

Who was that umpire...........................................?

 

[Leader]

Even after losing half the country to India, these so-called patriotic military officers have this sense of superiority about themselves. That's incredibly lame. Are they not taught history?

The taliban have given a real thrashing to this super-duper army and still they have the nerve to question the bloody civilians.

I refuse to be questioned by those who were holed up in Miranshah for years after years as if North Waziristan was some Star Wars outpost on another galaxy billions of light years away from home.


I agree to your every word

but

Who was that umpire...........................................?

It seem to me it was metaphorical, as cricketing examples are often given in his speeches.. unless ofcourse you have a conspiracy theory that the umpire was general Raheel sharif or Yahoodi lobby or something, according to whatever is being cooking in your mind.

 

[Waffen SS]

It seem to me it was metaphorical, as cricketing examples are often given in his speeches.. unless ofcourse you have a conspiracy theory that the umpire was general Raheel sharif or Yahoodi lobby or something, according to whatever is being cooking in your mind.

Sir, would you elaborate it in detail. Metaphorical umpire? did he meant God Almighty?

 

[Sheikh Rauf]

Dude, you are mixing Apples, Oranges, Peaches and Nectrines all together. These are different questions:

1) Corruption "seems" relatively less in the military because there is no accountability. The US along sent 10 billion to Musharraf.....where did it go? The military didn't get all of it, the Civilians didn't get it......where did it all go?? Divided between Musharraf and other buddies, namely within the military circles!

2) These housing societies like Defense and all.....where tdo you think they get the money from? And how do you think they acquire super cheap land that if you or I were to acquire, it'll be 100 times more expensive.......think about it. There are PLENTY of benefits of being in the military

3) Politicians are politicians everywhere. But they are also what people elect. Two different worlds. Then if someone isn't happy being a military man because of the perks of the civilian life, then why be in the military? Get out and get into commercial sector and make the big money and be a politician, no one's stopping you. But you can't criticize one world because of you being a part of the other or just having affiliates.

4) Now who is working for Islam and for Pakistan. I don't want to touch this subject as its not my place. I respect all religions. But do you think the violence mongering and attacks on Parliament that IK is doing are justified by Islam? Do you think Musharraf can overnight come and seize the entire capital and then become a forceful "president" because he had the military's backing......do you think that Islamic? He dragged out the SC judges who refused to break the constitution, he tortured a couple of them and humiliated all of them. Was that Islamic?
Let's leave the religion out of this, people do what they want to do and bring religion for convenience sake to justify wrong doings.

i doesnt matter what i think .. my thought cant change what we all want a country where everyone have goal and build society where people from different religion and cultures can live..
but you cant justify that politicians are politicians that they are allowed to loot money cuz everyone els does the same..
still army men are better than politicians.. we dont select Politicians they select themselves and impose forcfully their decisions on us which leads to disaster and every disastrous circumstances we ask help from Army.

 

[batmannow]

Why does army think about civilians as "bloody civilians?"

Because they allways find another ZAB or NOORA Kingo?

Military rule is the biggest agent of status quo. If it perpetuates, it stunts nation's political evolution.

Since 2008, Pakistan has come a long way. No matter how corrupt the system has been, a lot of people have understood that these parties are corrupt and there can be better democracy than civilian dictatorship of PPP and PMLN.

At the beginning of 2008, PMLN and PPP were heroes of democracy. This is what Musharraf regime had done our minds. We thought these fraudsters were democrats. Now we know they are nothing but fraud.

The above para is just a small lesson in history and one that can change our destiny. Look at military rules sine 1977. There were two of them. No doubt when the general ruled, the governance was better but their rule left more mess in the wake than the good they did.

The only way forward is to move with civilian rule. Make it better. Make some effort instead of taking a lethargic view of things and expect military to do everything for us.

With recorded money laundering with in the 7 damocrazy years & fake elections this nation isn't ready to listen the bakwas of the fruit of damocarzy any more?
Bring the looted money , bring the fair audit of the faked elections if not ?
Take away this nonsence to 10 DOWNING ?
& PARY IT THERE!

spent bullet.....he should just fade away......there is no need for army to dabble is politics....its (army) got its hands full.

MAKERS OF KIYANI ,s PAKISTAN ?
Khapay ! Pakistan! khapay!

 

[SBD-3]

with no disrespect to any single politician the system is messed up. Let me ask you what accountability has there been in these years with billions missing in tax dollars and projects so expensive that they could be built cheaper anywhere else in the world.

Oh they are held accountable by bashing in media, courts when they are entrapped and could be hanged as well. But please let me know a single year when our defence budget's audit report is published. AGP can audit any department of the government but cant even touch any of military's. Yes I would immediately buy your argument the day you post any incident of transparency being ensured or defence budget debated or discussed or even army chief defending the defence spend to anyone.

 

[Viper0011.]

i doesnt matter what i think .. my thought cant change what we all want a country where everyone have goal and build society where people from different religion and cultures can live..
but you cant justify that politicians are politicians that they are allowed to loot money cuz everyone els does the same..
still army men are better than politicians.. we dont select Politicians they select themselves and impose forcfully their decisions on us which leads to disaster and every disastrous circumstances we ask help from Army.

You are mixing stuff again:
1) If you want a country with goals, progress and a better society for all......Military rule is not the answer. Your military rule is what distributed AK-47 guns in Karachi to PPP's rival parties. Your military rule in the 80's was what brought up a strong student based militias in every main college and supported them from an religious standpoint.
2) Your military rule is WHY, on and off, for decades, you couldn't get foreign investment and trade.
3) Your military rulers were responsible for destroying every single chance that Pakistan got, to become a better, human friendly state with strong reforms and investor attractions
4) Your military rule was responsible for ventures like Kargil and when then PM NS had ALMOST resolved the Kashmir and Indian trade issue peacefully.
5) It was the military rule that allowed the US blanket access to the border. A civilian government would've negotiated a lot of benefits before doing that.
6) Your military rule made policies where Talibans were a "depth chargers" from Afghanistan, due to the perceived lack of strategic depth inside Pakistan. Look who you've been fighting against for the past 8 years.....??
7) Your military leadership was responsible for $ 10 billion worth of money for WOT, that didn't go to proper places, but it was spent in strange projects, kick backs and in buying properties.
8) The ONLY benefit or effect of military rule is more peace as no one under a marshal law wants to get in front of a military truck and get killed.

This isn't an anti military post. The point behind giving all this history is that soldiers are there to protect a country with their life if need be. But they are not designed to run a country like civilians. And if they do end up ruling, the above are issues that result from a military government.

If you had two democratically elected government finish their terms in the 80's or the 90's, with policies in place like the ones now, Pakistan would be where Turkey and Malaysia are if not more advanced!!! So please, for a better future, support the democratic system. It is ready to show you a TON of progress in the next two years. If these guys can finish their term, they'll have changed the face of Pakistan to a much better and shinier one with future promises and growth of the entire nation.

 

[TankMan]

Musharraf does have a point but I don't like the idea of involving the army in politics like that, even though its' already involved, involving it in this way would drag it down to dirty politics, destroy its popularity and even its credibility. The way its involved now and the way Musharraf is suggesting are really different , they need to weigh its pros and cons and think properly before doing anything of the sort. (if they actually consider it)

PM NS had ALMOST resolved the Kashmir and Indian trade issue peacefully.

 

[Gufi]

Oh they are held accountable by bashing in media, courts when they are entrapped and could be hanged as well. But please let me know a single year when our defence budget's audit report is published. AGP can audit any department of the government but cant even touch any of military's. Yes I would immediately buy your argument the day you post any incident of transparency being ensured or defence budget debated or discussed or even army chief defending the defence spend to anyone.

Sir it would be better to check your facts before you start writing.
The Auditor General of Pakistan (AGP) has detected serious financial irregularities exceeding Rs 30 billion, including embezzlements, violation of rules, unauthorised occupation of public land and related malpractices, in the annual accounts of Pakistan Air Force (PAF).
In its audit report for the financial year 2013-14 on the PAF accounts, the AGP has found that unauthorised expenditure exceeding Rs 25 billion has been incurred by the PAF authorities in terms of awarding an illegal consultancy contract to a private firm to execute a highly classified project. Moreover, the AGP has highlighted six instances related to unauthorised or illegal occupation of public land by the PAF that caused the national exchequer a loss of Rs 355 million in the last financial year.
According to the audit report, the PAF awarded contract number 08/2008 in an ‘unauthorised, illegal and incompetent’ manner, valued at Rs 429.234 million, to Kashif Aslam & Associates Private Limited for the development of PAF Base Shahbaz in Jacobabad, instead of awarding this contract to Military Engineering Services (MES), that is the competent authority to carry out such sensitive contracts in the defence sector. The project’s initial cost was Rs 7 billion but escalated to a total cost of Rs 25 billion under highly questionable circumstances amid alleged financial foul play committed by the PAF officials in collusion with the consultant.
The audit reveals that the award of the contract was not only illegal, it was a serious breach of the security protocol as well, since awarding a highly sensitive contract in defence sector to a private firm was in stark violation of rules. “As per the rules, only MES is responsible for such sophisticated and secret construction works of defence services but PAF assumed unlawfully the mandate of MES for this project,” the audit report observed. Initially, the audit report notes, Project Shahbaz was approved by the prime minister at a cost of Rs 7 billion, to be completed in two years by January 2010. But the project was extended for two more years till December 2011. Now the project’s cost has been raised to Rs 25.489 billion and is scheduled to be completed in 2014-15. The AGP recommends “immediate termination of existing consultancy contract, fix responsibility of such unlawful award of contract, recover full amount paid to the contractor and deposit the same into government treasury.” It also recommends “immediate stoppage of such unlawful practices for Project Shahbaz as well as for other upcoming similar projects of the armed forces for optimum use of precious government assets and human resources to ensure transparency, economy, efficiency and secrecy.”
The audit report mentions several instances that the financial irregularities in the PAF’s accounts were repeatedly brought to the notice of Air Headquarters (AHQ) in Islamabad as well as to the officials concerned but the PAF management failed to offer a satisfactory reply in this regard.
In one such instance, the national exchequer faced an enormous loss of Rs 414 million due to the unauthorised air movement of non-duty passengers in C-130 aircraft at PAF Faisal Base Karachi. The movement mostly involved the families and near and dear ones of PAF officers.“The loss was reported to the base commander, PAF Faisal Base Karachi, to which it was replied that the movement of non-duty passengers is authorised to give incentive to defence personnel on fill-up basis. Reply furnished by PAF is misleading and not tenable — containing no provision for free of cost movement of non-duty passengers,” the audit report observes.
Moreover, Rs 20 million were lost due to non-deposit of rent into government treasury recovered from officers who stayed at officers’ residential premises at PAF Noor Khan Base Chaklala. The residential facility is known as Visiting Officers Quarters (VAQ) and is run by the AHQ, Islamabad.

When there are bad seeds they are found and uprooted. Tell me about the audits of the government which are performed on structures such as metro bus or any other mega project. I wonder if you even wondered about the line losses this country faces or the gas that goes missing every year that is added to the bill and if there is any improvement.

 

[airmarshal]

Because they allways find another ZAB or NOORA Kingo?


With recorded money laundering with in the 7 damocrazy years & fake elections this nation isn't ready to listen the bakwas of the fruit of damocarzy any more?
Bring the looted money , bring the fair audit of the faked elections if not ?
Take away this nonsence to 10 DOWNING ?
& PARY IT THERE!



MAKERS OF KIYANI ,s PAKISTAN ?
Khapay ! Pakistan! khapay!

You missed the point my dear. Musharraf was no different. Zia wasnt better either and I tell you how.

Musharraf did not sentence any corrupt bureaucrat, politician or general. He did plea bargains. Which means I can do as much corruption as I want, but will be let go by paying a fraction of my looted money. He used fake cases to blackmail politicians into joining his govt after 2002 elections. He was the who planted this sapling of corruption of which we saw the deadly fruit in last seven years. In the end, with agreemeent with foreign powers, he gave the NRO which literally means - you r exonerated of all corruption charges. He literally threw the country to the dogs ie PMLN and PPP.

The less said about Zia, the better. Religious extremism, intolerance, sectarianism, Nawaz Sharif and Altaf Hussain are all his gifts to Pakistan.

So please let the nation mature politically. There is no short cut to glory. But military rule is the biggest hurdle in growth of a nation.

Think about this. If Zia had not introduced 58-2b, the real faces of Benazir and Nawaz would have been exposed a long time ago.Sending their corrupt govt home, did not let the people understand what they were doing. In fact it garnered sympathy for them.

Military generals are not fountains of wisdom. They should stay focused on war craft. After all, you must have heard, even in their real profession, without them indulging in politics, war is too serious a business to be left to generals alone.

A political patronage of military is needed. Not the other way round.

 

[batmannow]

You missed the point my dear. Musharraf was no different. Zia wasnt better either and I tell you how.

Musharraf did not sentence any corrupt bureaucrat, politician or general. He did plea bargains. Which means I can do as much corruption as I want, but will be let go by paying a fraction of my looted money. He used fake cases to blackmail politicians into joining his govt after 2002 elections. He was the who planted this sapling of corruption of which we saw the deadly fruit in last seven years. In the end, with agreemeent with foreign powers, he gave the NRO which literally means - you r exonerated of all corruption charges. He literally threw the country to the dogs ie PMLN and PPP.

The less said about Zia, the better. Religious extremism, intolerance, sectarianism, Nawaz Sharif and Altaf Hussain are all his gifts to Pakistan.

So please let the nation mature politically. There is no short cut to glory. But military rule is the biggest hurdle in growth of a nation.

Think about this. If Zia had not introduced 58-2b, the real faces of Benazir and Nawaz would have been exposed a long time ago.Sending their corrupt govt home, did not let the people understand what they were doing. In fact it garnered sympathy for them.

Military generals are not fountains of wisdom. They should stay focused on war craft. After all, you must have heard, even in their real profession, without them indulging in politics, war is too serious a business to be left to generals alone.

A political patronage of military is needed. Not the other way round.

Very hounrable friend!
May be what you say , is partially right but again non of these so called politicians ever produced any thing good for the nation yet?
While with all of its unintentional faults military was there , in all the hours of needs?
Sure they are not the ones send by God with a micro chip full of wisdom but still they are loyal & patriotic to protect this country enough?
This is where politicians has nothing just another slogan ?
While in all the dictator ships in Pakistan , our country was shining in every field ?
I personally not belive in this system , which is fake & full of crouption !
No in this system no angel will survive , these stupids has their last song going on & country is getting in the deeper or deepest of the mess?
Look at them they aren't ready to the fairest of the demands of a patriot like Imran khan to just give this nation the right of fair rule?
Do you still belive in their mafia rule ?
I am not !

Dude, you are mixing Apples, Oranges, Peaches and Nectrines all together. These are different questions:

1) Corruption "seems" relatively less in the military because there is no accountability. The US along sent 10 billion to Musharraf.....where did it go? The military didn't get all of it, the Civilians didn't get it......where did it all go?? Divided between Musharraf and other buddies, namely within the military circles!

2) These housing societies like Defense and all.....where tdo you think they get the money from? And how do you think they acquire super cheap land that if you or I were to acquire, it'll be 100 times more expensive.......think about it. There are PLENTY of benefits of being in the military

3) Politicians are politicians everywhere. But they are also what people elect. Two different worlds. Then if someone isn't happy being a military man because of the perks of the civilian life, then why be in the military? Get out and get into commercial sector and make the big money and be a politician, no one's stopping you. But you can't criticize one world because of you being a part of the other or just having affiliates.

4) Now who is working for Islam and for Pakistan. I don't want to touch this subject as its not my place. I respect all religions. But do you think the violence mongering and attacks on Parliament that IK is doing are justified by Islam? Do you think Musharraf can overnight come and seize the entire capital and then become a forceful "president" because he had the military's backing......do you think that Islamic? He dragged out the SC judges who refused to break the constitution, he tortured a couple of them and humiliated all of them. Was that Islamic?
Let's leave the religion out of this, people do what they want to do and bring religion for convenience sake to justify wrong doings.

Sure you support the rule of mafia which was attacking supreme courts & beating CJs to rigg elections after elections Pml Moorns league ?