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Musharraf Ki Yaad AAyi Us Kay Janay Kay Baad

Victory and loss, both were of Pakistan. Soldiers don't fight for personal glory.
he didnt just loose, he made blunders both as COAS and the president

plus can u tell me was the president informed before kargil adventure? he is supposed to be your commander in chief!!!
 
kindly read what i wrote, just mush vs imran.... even JI can beat mush anywhere in pakistan

so fighting war makes u more patriot? my father was in army, he fought wars but i cant say that he is more patriotic than a shop keeper down the street... everyone has his role to play in society bro!!!

You called Gen. Musharraf a traitor and I reminded that he fought wars for this country and he shouldn't be called a traitor. Just because a person doesn't share your political vision doesn't mean that he is a traitor.

Would you call Gen. Zia a traitor as well?

The shop keeper will not challenge your father's patriotism either and will appreciate his own role in the society. IK should also realize his role in society, i.e. a philanthropist and not a politician.
 
he didnt just loose, he made blunders both as COAS and the president

plus can u tell me was the president informed before kargil adventure? he is supposed to be your commander in chief!!!

As COAS, he had Kargil. What was the purpose of Kargil? I hope you understand that Pakistan Army was not planning to take over Kashmir via Kargil :) From early 1990, Kashmir issue was sidelined and despite all the efforts, Kashmir issue was not getting space on global agendas. Kargil was simply launched to bring the Kashmir issue back on the agendas of all global meetings etc. Pakistan achieved its goal and inflicted a serious blow to the Indian Army and did take casualties on our side as well, however, our politicians and weak media (those days) couldn't take credit of the victory.

Nawaz Sharif and Tarar claim that they didn't knew, however, the ISI chief was NS' man and I have seen interview of Ch. Shujaat where he accused NS of lying as Ch. Shuajaat was present in the briefing regarding Kargil.

Question is why Nawaz Sharif didn't claim victory? Well NS is an ego centric politician and he didn't wanted to give credit to Pakistan Army specially when he believed that PA is planning to remove him.
 
True but it shows the capabilities of the soldiers.

Pakistan Army's officer and ranks are very capable, which is the very reason of no attacks from India even after major incidents.

You must also understand that NATO and ISAF couldn't achieve victory in Afghansitan with all their resources and Pakistan Army was able to clear our areas with limited resources.
 
Kargil was simply launched to bring the Kashmir issue back on the agendas of all global meetings etc. Pakistan achieved its goal and inflicted a serious blow to the Indian Army and did take casualties on our side as well, however, our politicians and weak media (those days) couldn't take credit of the victory.

Yeah, indeed. What did you eat before writing this? (Not meant to be offensive)

To the world, it made only clear that Pakistan has hegemonic ambitions and it is not willing to discuss anything on the table and relying on military power again to get what it believes is its rightful possession.

To discuss whether the UN role on Kashmir has been redundant and hopeless and whether diplomacy could ever work is not the point of this argument, you stated that somehow it brought Kashmir to global limelight again. To say that bad press is press coverage anyways is not applicable in military maneuvers.

The Lahore Peace Process was working quite fine, amicably and Vajpayee pissed a lot of people in his country when he jumped on a bus to come to Lahore. The meetings in Colombo had borne fruit as well. It is utterly wrong to assert that Kashmir wasn't being discussed for long and it was necessary to use military power to bring to it limelight. Both were nuclear powers by then and such a skirmish only showed to the world the hegemonic ambitions, strategic myopia and adventurous nation of our goals and objectives.

Nawaz Sharif and Tarar claim that they didn't knew, however, the ISI chief was NS' man and I have seen interview of Ch. Shujaat where he accused NS of lying as Ch. Shuajaat was present in the briefing regarding Kargil.
Tarrar obviously didn't know ****. As for Nawaz, it is wrong to assert that he didn't know anything and anybody claiming that he was out of the loop until the very end is fooled.

The point is to determine when he was informed and what he was informed about. In his book, Sartaj Aziz (I don't have a copy right now, I'll confirm dates when I get a look at it again) says that they were invited for a briefing in March (something like late March) and he, Nawaz and Majeed Malik went to see a briefing by the three generals (Musharraf and the two others I'm not sure maybe DGMO Tauqir Zia and somebody else) and they were informed that the plans had been laid out over the past year and troop movement had already started. Sartaj Aziz says that he was horrified and expected Nawaz to interrupt and angrily ask questions from the very start but Nawaz kept listening and to his horror asked whether this road would lead to Srinagar. Nawaz, I guess was also dreaming about getting Kashmir like every myopic leader we have had and on their way back Sartaz Aziz says that Majeed Malik was apprehensive and said that Musharraf had landed them in a mess but Nawaz (went in another car) was calm, happy and delighted.

Musharraf has time and again tried to assert that Nawaz was informed something like in February in a visit to to the front line (a visit to Siachen base camp or Skardu) but Sartaj Aziz has doubted that.

Even then, it is upto the military to present the reality of the situations and expected outcomes to the leaders, who are not supposed to be military theorists or educated in warfare. While they might have presented a strategic evaluation to the elected government, it would be hard to say whether they were realistic in their objectives and whether they were again myopic when it came to evaluating the Indian response and the support/sanctions from our allies. If the serving chiefs of the PN and PAF maintain that they were kept out of the loop until the very end, it goes to show that the PA generals were nothing more than adventurous, self righteous and arrogant in their behaviour and their operation of their roles.

"In an effort to keep the plan secret—which was the key to its successful initiation, so it was thought—the Army trio took no one into confidence, neither its operational commanders, nor the heads of the other services. This, regrettably, resulted in a closed loop thought process, which engendered a string of oversights and failures.

Kargil, I suspect, like the 1965 and 1971 Wars, was a case of not having enough dissenters (‘devil’s advocates’, if you will) during planning, because everyone wanted to agree with the boss. That single reason, I think, was the root cause of most of the failures that were apparent right from the beginning. If this point is understood well, remedial measures towards tolerance and liberalism can follow as a matter of course" - Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail - Director of Operations, PAF in 1999
 
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Yeah, indeed. What did you eat before writing this? (Not meant to be offensive)

To the world, it made only clear that Pakistan has hegemonic ambitions and it is not willing to discuss anything on the table and relying on military power again to get what it believes is its rightful possession.

To discuss whether the UN role on Kashmir has been redundant and hopeless and whether diplomacy could ever work is not the point of this argument, you stated that somehow it brought Kashmir to global limelight again. To say that bad press is press coverage anyways is not applicable in military maneuvers.

The Lahore Peace Process was working quite fine, amicably and Vajpayee pissed a lot of people in his country when he jumped on a bus to come to Lahore. The meetings in Colombo had borne fruit as well. It is utterly wrong to assert that Kashmir wasn't being discussed for long and it was necessary to use military power to bring to it limelight. Both were nuclear powers by then and such a skirmish only showed to the world the hegemonic ambitions, strategic myopia and adventurous nation of our goals and objectives.

I ate well and it shows in my response but you must be hungry which shows in your response.

When have Pakistan recieved good press? There was absolutely NO action from the so called powers and NO support for Pakistan's point of view despite UN resolutions. Pakistan was left to work with India, which was supported by global powers.

Also keep in mind that LOC positions were changing a lot those days becase it is not an international border. It was not the action but the magnitude of action which grabbed attention.

One never negotiate from a position of weakness therefore, Kargil was designed to tell the powers that we can take unilateral actions. After that there was a period of tension however, India understood that how far Pakistan can go and the global powers also become vocal in asking for a Kashmir resolution.

We need to get out of apologetic approach saying taht the peace process was working. If peace process was working then we would have resolve the Rann of Kuch dispute by now.

Last week Indian Naval gun boats entered Pakistani Naval space and kidnapped 75 Pakistani fishermen. What have Pakistan done to these guys in the last two years? First they blame the GoP for 26/11 and then they take such actions. We need to have a carrot and stick approach because that is how peace is achieved. An evidence is the much improved relations between the two countries during Gen. Musharraf's govt.
 
The point is to determine when he was informed and what he was informed about. In his book, Sartaj Aziz (I don't have a copy right now, I'll confirm dates when I get a look at it again) says that they were invited for a briefing in March (something like late March) and he, Nawaz and Majeed Malik went to see a briefing by the three generals (Musharraf and the two others I'm not sure maybe DGMO Tauqir Zia and somebody else) and they were informed that the plans had been laid out over the past year and troop movement had already started. Sartaj Aziz says that he was horrified and expected Nawaz to interrupt and angrily ask questions from the very start but Nawaz kept listening and to his horror asked whether this road would lead to Srinagar. Nawaz, I guess was also dreaming about getting Kashmir like every myopic leader we have had and on their way back Sartaz Aziz says that Majeed Malik was apprehensive and said that Musharraf had landed them in a mess but Nawaz (went in another car) was calm, happy and delighted.

Musharraf has time and again tried to assert that Nawaz was informed something like in February in a visit to to the front line (a visit to Siachen base camp or Skardu) but Sartaj Aziz has doubted that.

NS didn't reacted because he was on board. Sartaj Aziz doesn't know so he said that I doubt. Gen. Musharraf is sure about Feb dates and so is Ch. Shujaat. Sartaj Aziz' doubt doesn't count.

Even then, it is upto the military to present the reality of the situations and expected outcomes to the leaders, who are not supposed to be military theorists or educated in warfare. While they might have presented a strategic evaluation to the elected government, it would be hard to say whether they were realistic in their objectives and whether they were again myopic when it came to evaluating the Indian response and the support/sanctions from our allies. If the serving chiefs of the PN and PAF maintain that they were kept out of the loop until the very end, it goes to show that the PA generals were nothing more than adventurous, self righteous and arrogant in their behaviour and their operation of their roles.

Nawaz Sharif was the defence eminister too at that time, Gen. Zia Butt was his ISI chief and PA claims that NS knew so how much more can army do.

When the PM of the country trusts himself with the position of PM, defence minister and also head of the political party and on top of that dreams of becoming a Khalifa then it is never enough information for him.

"In an effort to keep the plan secret—which was the key to its successful initiation, so it was thought—the Army trio took no one into confidence, neither its operational commanders, nor the heads of the other services. This, regrettably, resulted in a closed loop thought process, which engendered a string of oversights and failures.

Kargil, I suspect, like the 1965 and 1971 Wars, was a case of not having enough dissenters (‘devil’s advocates’, if you will) during planning, because everyone wanted to agree with the boss. That single reason, I think, was the root cause of most of the failures that were apparent right from the beginning. If this point is understood well, remedial measures towards tolerance and liberalism can follow as a matter of course" - Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail - Director of Operations, PAF in 1999

Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail is absolutely right in his analysis but his analysis is from the perspective of PA going to Srinagar. This was never the goal or the plan.

Plan was to hold the position and then retreat to a position which is beeter then the previous LOC position. That was achieved.
 
I ate well and it shows in my response but you must be hungry which shows in your response.

When have Pakistan recieved good press? There was absolutely NO action from the so called powers and NO support for Pakistan's point of view despite UN resolutions. Pakistan was left to work with India, which was supported by global powers.

Also keep in mind that LOC positions were changing a lot those days becase it is not an international border. It was not the action but the magnitude of action which grabbed attention.

One never negotiate from a position of weakness therefore, Kargil was designed to tell the powers that we can take unilateral actions. After that there was a period of tension however, India understood that how far Pakistan can go and the global powers also become vocal in asking for a Kashmir resolution.

We need to get out of apologetic approach saying taht the peace process was working. If peace process was working then we would have resolve the Rann of Kuch dispute by now.

Last week Indian Naval gun boats entered Pakistani Naval space and kidnapped 75 Pakistani fishermen. What have Pakistan done to these guys in the last two years? First they blame the GoP for 26/11 and then they take such actions. We need to have a carrot and stick approach because that is how peace is achieved. An evidence is the much improved relations between the two countries during Gen. Musharraf's govt.

Trying to view objectively is far more than important than being assertive of your own opinions, which is what you are doing. Kashmir is a non issue at global summits because the international community clearly feels that it is in no position to negotiate a truce between two nuclear powers (plus the fact that Pakistan has been militarily aggressive more than once) . The UN or US cannot negotiate a truce on Kashmir and it is entirely upto India and Pakistan to do this.

You failed to respond to the Lahore declaration and the bus diplomacy because that it what was really hurt by the skirmish in Kargil. Kargil was unnecessary, no justifications can be given for it. Kargil told nobody that we can take unilateral decisions, it only told everybody about the irrational nature of our decision making and then myopia that our strategists suffer from. "Apolegetic" is no word for a peace process. Nawaz was and is far from a sane person but the peace initiative was working and Vajpayee didn't get a lot of heat in his country without reason.

The diplomatic failure and international impression abroad and as you say limelight that we got on Kashmir is summarized best as :-

"India got a favorable hearing at the G-8 countries meeting in Europe. Pakistan was unable to generate any support for its position, neither at the G-8 meetings, nor at meetings with its traditional allies, the Organization of Islamic Countries, or with China, its ―all weather friend"

On the international scene, the Pakistanis were viewed as the aggressors, and the decade-long turmoil in Kashmir in which more than 50,000 lives have been lost was forgotten. After initially denying that Pakistani forces were involved in Kargil, General Musharraf later conceded that Pakistani forces had crossed over the LoC due to ―aggressive patrolling.‖ The Pakistani army later conferred medals on several officers and soldiers involved in the Kargil campaign, removing any doubt about its involvement in the war. Contrary to Pakistan's desires, Kashmir was no closer to a plebiscite than it had been in 1947. The whole affair had been contrary to Liddell Hart‘s dictum that ―Victory in the true sense implies that the state of peace, and of one‘s people, is better after the war than before" - Rethinking The National Security of Pakistan - AHMAD FARUQUI

Kargil did, and could not have brought any benefits. Accepted that it was "an act of tactical brilliance" there was no point in launching an attack on a neighboring nuclear country (plus the fact that we "Pakistan did not have any operational nukes during Kargil" (India called our bluff when we claimed ―not hesitate to use any weapon in our arsenal to defend our territorial integrity" - did they know all along about the lack operationalization of our nukes? anyway off topic)

Seeking a military solution to Kashmir through Kargil was nothing more than a way for adventurous, self serving, self righteous, myopic and arrogant generals to bring to reality their dreams of an Indian conquest.
 
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NS didn't reacted because he was on board. Sartaj Aziz doesn't know so he said that I doubt. Gen. Musharraf is sure about Feb dates and so is Ch. Shujaat. Sartaj Aziz' doubt doesn't count.

Gen. Musharraf is right about everything ...
There is no proof to back Musharraf's claims. Nawaz has proof that he was informed late. No sane person claims that he wasn't informed about anything. Sartaj Aziz was the Foreign Minister at that time. If he didn't know and news was kept to Nawaz, as you assert, then this clearly speaks about another failu and ill natured decision from the PA. If the Ministry of Foreign Affairs is only informed after sending troops into a disputed territory and launching such a big operation, how does the nation expect its government to defend itself on the international media and in the comity of nations? Vilification would surely ensue.


Nawaz Sharif was the defence eminister too at that time, Gen. Zia Butt was his ISI chief and PA claims that NS knew so how much more can army do.
Not plan ill fated, pointless and hollow plans to capture Kashmir.

When the PM of the country trusts himself with the position of PM, defence minister and also head of the political party and on top of that dreams of becoming a Khalifa then it is never enough information for him.
I agree with you.


Air Commodore Kaiser Tufail is absolutely right in his analysis but his analysis is from the perspective of PA going to Srinagar. This was never the goal or the plan.

Plan was to hold the position and then retreat to a position which is beeter then the previous LOC position. That was achieved.

I do not see that he is somehow analyzing the situation by thinking that the PA meant to go to Srinagar. (PA did want to go to Srinagar? We might never now) His opinion is clearly based on the overall debacle and lack of coordination among the PAF, PA and PN. What I can read is that he's pointing out that the secrecy hurt and hurt bad.

Anyways, you can agree with his opinions because as I have found, the opinions of ex-servicemen are to be respected in such matters and the civilians have to be rejected as baseless because somehow they "don't know anything".

Defending Kargil by saying that it would have been a victory if Nawaz Sharif hadn't ordered a withdrawl is illogical, irrational and ludicrous. With soldiers not getting any supplies, it was hardly possible to contain the IA for long and the reasons for the debacle are the usual :-

1. Optimism about own military capabilities (to the point of narcissism)
2. Under estimation of Indian military power and Indian response (We cannot understand that a country can fight without being guided by religious ideology)
3. Optimism about support from Allies (always wrong estimation about support which never came)
 
As COAS, he had Kargil. What was the purpose of Kargil? I hope you understand that Pakistan Army was not planning to take over Kashmir via Kargil :) From early 1990, Kashmir issue was sidelined and despite all the efforts, Kashmir issue was not getting space on global agendas. Kargil was simply launched to bring the Kashmir issue back on the agendas of all global meetings etc. Pakistan achieved its goal and inflicted a serious blow to the Indian Army and did take casualties on our side as well, however, our politicians and weak media (those days) couldn't take credit of the victory.

so is kashmir in the global agenda now? mind you it was your dear sir pervaiz musharraf who roll backed support for the freedom fighter movements in kashmir!!

no one took credit it was just a plain misadventure of a few generals who were unable to prepare ground for such a strike... as it was one of the kashmiris who spotted pakistani forces n informed the indians. it was your generals who left soldiers without food and medical supplies, a plain misadventure like operation gibraltor

Nawaz Sharif and Tarar claim that they didn't knew, however, the ISI chief was NS' man and I have seen interview of Ch. Shujaat where he accused NS of lying as Ch. Shuajaat was present in the briefing regarding Kargil.

Question is why Nawaz Sharif didn't claim victory? Well NS is an ego centric politician and he didn't wanted to give credit to Pakistan Army specially when he believed that PA is planning to remove him.

i havent seen that interview and i doubt Ch. Shujaat would ever speak in favor of NS (its politics!!!!)... with all respect the supreme commander of your forces is the president not the prime minister... 2ndly can you please tell me on which base are you saying that army had plans to remove NS during operation at kargil??
 
You called Gen. Musharraf a traitor and I reminded that he fought wars for this country and he shouldn't be called a traitor. Just because a person doesn't share your political vision doesn't mean that he is a traitor.

Would you call Gen. Zia a traitor as well?

The shop keeper will not challenge your father's patriotism either and will appreciate his own role in the society. IK should also realize his role in society, i.e. a philanthropist and not a politician.

Col. Usmani (who trained mukti bahni) fought for your country as well, do you consider him a traitor?*

Brigadier Usman khalid who was recruiting people for pakistan liberation movement (a branch of AlZulfiqar) in libya was not a traitor either???*

Maj. general Tajammul Hussain who tried mutiny to place himself as the COAS cant be considered a traitor as well???*

there are plenty of examples like these bro!!! i didnt call him a traitor just cause of his political views but what he made my country go through, and it still is suffering from one man's lack of leadership!!!

why cant a philanthropist be a politician, infact as they are on the grass root level they understand the problems of a common man much better!!!
 
Great captains do not abandon their ships. Similarly, great leaders do not "abandon" (leave) their country.
 
Musharraf in politics
Sunday, April 04, 2010

Musharraf mulling to return to Pakistan to partake politics – according to Ahmed R Shahid's letter (April 1) -- is nothing short of playing April Fool with the nation. One can count the general's followers on one's fingertips. Besides a loony doc from Mianwali, there is an equally nutty barrister, a retired Gen Qureshi, and a few more unknown among Mush's apologists. Musharraf is a smart aleck; he will never return to live in Pakistan, not to mention participating in politics. He has antagonised a large majority of people in the country by selling some of his compatriots to the US for bounty that he confessed in his cheap thriller – In the Line of Fire, now stopped selling on footpaths.

The nearest that Musharraf will ever be to this country is when he comes to live in his villa in Dubai; otherwise, he is a pariah like Augusto Pinochet, the former Chillian dictator who, after killing twenty thousand of his people to appease the US, had run away to the UK to save his hide. So indeed does the commando. Recently, there was news of his buying a mansion in another city in the UK. It appears as if the dollars the US gave to fight the war on terror or the bounty he accrued are coming in handy to 'dear leader', Musharraf.

Dr A P Sangdil
Oslo, Norway
 

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