Musharaf is severely ill may die soon

[Sully3]

You personify why I don't trust any open border Musharraf solution for kashmir being touted by some here ? @Nilgiri
Pakistanis don't have a good record of sticking to their word or agreements, like occupying empty posts in kargil.

Who the hell would ever believe an indian or his word. the worlds biggest liars hence why the term the land of snake charmers given to Indian and indians centuries ago.

you have to count your fingers everytime you shake hands with an indian .

 

[I S I]

China ka commando

 

[VCheng]

Didn't care at all for a lot of the things he did (like Kargil, how he came to power, how he left power, several things in between all of that.... and there was always something quite egotistical about his demeanour a lot of the time)....BUT, he really did have a drive to get Kashmir settled (which I do respect him for, esp as military man that cuts right to the chase) with India peacefully (and Vajpayee was there) and it was almost within reach....in fact if Vajpayee won a 2nd term, things probably would have looked lot different in the region. It was the kind of Egypt-Israel camp david thing with Sadat-Begin (after Yom Kippur war) that was cruelly denied to all of us in the end. We are all poorer for it, but I admire the ones that tried and brought it as close to reality as they did....because it serves as a reminder of the potential this wonderful region of ours richly deserves.

@The Sandman @T-123456 @saiyan0321 @M. Sarmad @scorpionx @VCheng @Joe Shearer

In summary, he was just another one of a long list of failed criminals in Pakistan's history, but one that came closer than others to resolving Kashmir, but not quite. Or is that too blunt?

For all his grave mistakes and errors of judgement, and military adventurism that turned so ugly so rapidly, this general came close to clearing up the festering wound that is Kashmir.

If only for this single heroic effort, Musharraf gets a pass in my book.

Please see the above.

 

[The Sandman]

Didn't care at all for a lot of the things he did (like Kargil, how he came to power, how he left power, several things in between all of that.... and there was always something quite egotistical about his demeanour a lot of the time)....BUT, he really did have a drive to get Kashmir settled (which I do respect him for, esp as military man that cuts right to the chase) with India peacefully (and Vajpayee was there) and it was almost within reach....in fact if Vajpayee won a 2nd term, things probably would have looked lot different in the region. It was the kind of Egypt-Israel camp david thing with Sadat-Begin (after Yom Kippur war) that was cruelly denied to all of us in the end. We are all poorer for it, but I admire the ones that tried and brought it as close to reality as they did....because it serves as a reminder of the potential this wonderful region of ours richly deserves.

@The Sandman @T-123456 @saiyan0321 @M. Sarmad @scorpionx @VCheng @Joe Shearer

There is still no justification of him overthrowing a democratic gov and for other blunders. As far as Kashmir issue is concerned if am not wrong it was reaching to a conclusion when Indian PM of that time visited Pakistan and both Nawaz and him signed some declarations?

 

[Joe Shearer]

You either have brownie points or battle scars so Joe you are low in the ranking since you only have one but @Nilgiri is a good boy. He has ten. A true battle scared veteran. :p :p

LOL.

Our hero has nine. He's doing well, considering. Nilgiri is in a different class, he isn't just one of the bottom-of-the-garden trolls that people keep tripping over, he has major contributions to his credit, and he has a distinct point of view, not always a point of view that enthuses people. Hence the scars.

In summary, he was just another one of a long list of failed criminals in Pakistan's history, but one that came closer than others to resolving Kashmir, but not quite. Or is that too blunt?



Please see the above.

<sigh!>

Verba ex ore, and all that, and I wish you wouldn't grab!

There is still no justification of him overthrowing a democratic gov and for other blunders. As far as Kashmir issue is concerned if am not wrong it was reaching to a conclusion when Indian PM of that time visited Pakistan and both Nawaz and him signed some declarations?

Not quite.

During that famous bus-ride, Vajpayee and Sharif had considerably smoothed down things, when Kargil set everything back very many steps. There was a long lull after that, and ironically, Musharraf, when he came to power, and went to meet Vajpayee, came out with a pragmatic solution, a solution that is now history.

Unfortunately, while the grapevine has it that the majority of the BJP (those who were taken into confidence, those at the highest level of decision-making) were in favour, the hawks, apparently numbering Advani among them, shot down the proposal. The stupidest decision in decades.

 

[Azadkashmir]

wtf a general like him cant get decent healthcare not that i know what is suffering from. trust me top prime ministers, generals etc elites get the real cure. the rest of us get the medicine that masks pain only. i would have thought that pak army would have thier own research lab with high tech medicine.

1. pemf device
2. electro-medicine
3.light healing therapy
4. herbal
5.ozone therapy
6.pure oxygen healing.

etc

 

[YeBeWarned]

only Allah knows the time of death for every living thing .. may Allah give him health and quick recovery ..

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

You personify why I don't trust any open border Musharraf solution for kashmir being touted by some here ? @Nilgiri
Pakistanis don't have a good record of sticking to their word or agreements, like occupying empty posts in kargil.

Why do Indians feel the need to hijack every thread about Pakistan?

Give your opinion and take a backseat.

You are not a major part of this conversation.

 

[Nilgiri]

And do you know why he couldnt get done?

Well if camp david accords are any measure..the process takes 5 years or so at least from the precursor conflict to the final settlement...that sticks long term because you have a "hawk" (like Begin ~ Vajpayee equivalent) rather than "liberal" running things on the elected side....(using Musharraf as Sadat equivalent on military leader side).

So 1999 + 5 = 2004...which was election year that Vajpai brought ahead by 6 months and promptly lost. New elected govt means start all over again rather than continue from where things were left....and also by that time Musharraf was getting his hands full on his side because of WoT picking up etc....and then Mumbai attacks happened in 2008 and that closed the window shut basically.

So if Vajpayee hypothetically won that election (and did say a last year dole instead of that dumb India shining campaign...which ended up unnecessarily antagonizing all those that didn't improve their lot), I think 2005/2006 or at least somewhere in that timeframe, things would have been quite likely to get a resolved deal on Kashmir.

As for enforcement/implementation of the deal...and sticking to it and what would be the recourse for violations...well its another subject....but the point is there would have been something signed and ratified by both sides to look to....and could have a neutral arbiter like World Bank is for IWT etc....maybe something like ICJ or similar.

 

[Nilgiri]

There is still no justification of him overthrowing a democratic gov and for other blunders. As far as Kashmir issue is concerned if am not wrong it was reaching to a conclusion when Indian PM of that time visited Pakistan and both Nawaz and him signed some declarations?

Yes lahore declaration etc (sharif + vajpai) it was just very early stuff (not really Kashmir oriented, but just to get the ball rolling on better relations etc and provide a basic framework for nuclear arms threshold security etc)...then Kargil happened....coup in Pakistan after...and Musharraf kinda starts afresh and drives the bargaining/negotiation to next level (I suppose he wanted to be remembered for it and also didnt need to worry all that much about the people's mandate etc).

I don't really judge all that much on the deeper intent (of musharraf or anyone tbh), since that lies in the heart to be judged by God only etc....but the policy outreach/drive taken purely for what its worth...was commendable. Given he could have simply doubled down on the hate-India + never-solve Kashmir (or solve by 1000 year war etc) kind of thing too...but I think in an ironic way that would not have quite met his own ego to get something done etc...the feeling of limited time/damocles sword/gordian knot (after all he did get there by a coup) may have played its role somewhat too.

Nilgiri is in a different class, he isn't just one of the bottom-of-the-garden trolls that people keep tripping over, he has major contributions to his credit, and he has a distinct point of view, not always a point of view that enthuses people. Hence the scars.

Heh. I am somewhat of a (naval/marine) tank commander. I have to be selective about targeting the right thing...but also willing to also charge out there (sometimes against better judgement and even outright orders) to aid the infantrymen around me. Their job is often overly-dismissed and overlooked as mundane and casual. These scars must bear witness to that not being the whole case....they are the bread and butter of how things go in the end!

And yes navies can have tank commanders ...shush to all those thinking tanks are only for the landlubbers! They do not grasp quite how all the naval terms came for basic things on the tank....the hull, the turret, the sponsons, glacis, the bow, the deck etc etc heck we navy folk gave the word "tank" in the first place .

@The Sandman @GeraltofRivia @Desert Fox @Vergennes @Signalian

Unfortunately, while the grapevine has it that the majority of the BJP (those who were taken into confidence, those at the highest level of decision-making) were in favour, the hawks, apparently numbering Advani among them, shot down the proposal. The stupidest decision in decades.

I think one more election cycle and more time might have helped. I agree they squandered the early opportunity. But these things are not so easy given the history. Begin needed much time to convince his lot (as hawkish as he was, I will let the irgun days do the talking for him) of the merits of making permanent peace with the very enemy that launched a major offensive (with much successes too) not too many years before.

 

[Darwin]

As for enforcement/implementation of the deal...and sticking to it and what would be the recourse for violations...well its another subject..

Reminds me of a cartoon by laxman after rajiv gandhi signed the assam accord. In the cartoon rajiv is on a podium addressing millions of migrants with the words "disappear" .
Pakistan would have treated the accord like toilet paper.

Remember the famous accord between the Israelis and the Palestinians ?

 

[Nilgiri]

Reminds me of a cartoon by laxman after rajiv gandhi signed the assam accord. In the cartoon rajiv is on a podium addressing millions of migrants with the words "disappear" .
Pakistan would have treated the accord like toilet paper.

Remember the famous accord between the Israelis and the Palestinians ?

I see Pakistan as more like Egypt in the analogy there....compared to Palestine. Palestine is more like Kashmir in some ways...but very different in others. But I dont see Pakistan like Palestine....given Pakistan and India recognise each other in first place as sovereign nations.

The point is any accord has enough period and safeguards baked into it (say maintaining stringent security controls after demilitarisation + requisite remote sensing to monitor this)....and any agreed resolution process (in say neutral arena) for transgressions after it...all ratified by relevant legislatures.

Put me, @Joe Shearer @Vibrio and say @saiyan0321 , @WAJsal and @M. Sarmad etc in room as leaders/negotiators, give us couple days and few good lawyers/legal experts...I am telling you Kashmir gets fixed proper and peacefully...with no chance of reneging by perceived potential untrustworthies (even if they wanted to). It is very do-able....and would give a phased manner in which trust and confidence built over time to improve upon down the road.

 

[Darwin]

I see Pakistan as more like Egypt in the analogy there....compared to Palestine. Palestine is more like Kashmir in some ways...but very different in others. But I dont see Pakistan like Palestine....given Pakistan and India recognise each other in first place as sovereign nations.

The point is any accord has enough period and safeguards baked into it (say maintaining stringent security controls after demilitarisation + requisite remote sensing to monitor this)....and any agreed resolution process (in say neutral arena) for transgressions after it...all ratified by relevant legislatures.

Put me, @Joe Shearer @Vibrio and say @saiyan0321 , @WAJsal and @M. Sarmad etc in room as leaders/negotiators, give us couple days and few good lawyers/legal experts...I am telling you Kashmir gets fixed proper and peacefully...with no chance of reneging by perceived potential untrustworthies (even if they wanted to). It is very do-able....and would give a phased manner in which trust and confidence built over time to improve upon down the road.

What in pakistan's past behaviour makes you think that it is trustworthy ? I am Very curious to know.
You totally underestimate the opposition of entrenched forces in Pakistan to any meaningful peace with India. They would lose all their perks and importance in a peaceful subcontinent.
And what are you in any case ready to negotiate about ?
Plebiscite with kashmiri Muslims choosing India or Pakistan or independence .
Open borders ?
Await your ideas.

 

[T-123456]

Well if camp david accords are any measure..the process takes 5 years or so at least from the precursor conflict to the final settlement...that sticks long term because you have a "hawk" (like Begin ~ Vajpayee equivalent) rather than "liberal" running things on the elected side....(using Musharraf as Sadat equivalent on military leader side).

So 1999 + 5 = 2004...which was election year that Vajpai brought ahead by 6 months and promptly lost. New elected govt means start all over again rather than continue from where things were left....and also by that time Musharraf was getting his hands full on his side because of WoT picking up etc....and then Mumbai attacks happened in 2008 and that closed the window shut basically.
my
So if Vajpayee hypothetically won that election (and did say a last year dole instead of that dumb India shining campaign...which ended up unnecessarily antagonizing all those that didn't improve their lot), I think 2005/2006 or at least somewhere in that timeframe, things would have been quite likely to get a resolved deal on Kashmir.

As for enforcement/implementation of the deal...and sticking to it and what would be the recourse for violations...well its another subject....but the point is there would have been something signed and ratified by both sides to look to....and could have a neutral arbiter like World Bank is for IWT etc....maybe something like ICJ or similar.

He lost his power,the minute he went democratic,thats my take on it.
Would have could have should have only and only if military rule would have stayed for a couple of more years.
Going democratic was poison,in this case.
Btw,your english is to complicated for a simple mind like myself(maybe we meant the same,i dont know ).

 

[Nilgiri]

What in pakistan's past behaviour makes you think that it is trustworthy ? I am Very curious to know.
You totally underestimate the opposition of entrenched forces in Pakistan to any meaningful peace with India. They would lose all their perks and importance in a peaceful subcontinent.
And what are you in any case ready to negotiate about ?
Plebiscite with kashmiri Muslims choosing India or Pakistan or independence .
Open borders ?
Await your ideas.

No the peace deal would simply be what Musharraf pushed for....Loc recognition as border.

Kashmir basically would be partitioned and accepted as partitioned like Punjab etc were....and continuing maximum internal political autonomy (i.e the special basic legislature that Indian Kashmir and Pakistani Kashmir have for their own area).

Its not on any side to "trust" blindly the other....thats why there would be clear safeguards and stipulated actions for breaking any agreement right at the early initiation level (say movement of troops/ heavy assets as detected by remote sensing)....and a clear vetted process for security based border controls in the area (till a much later date where much more trust will first have to be earned).

Its better than not trying anything at all....a lot of lives would have been saved by now. It would also have shown if it would have been broken in some way by now, rather than simply sitting in the US or wherever and assuming it would have been.

He lost his power,the minute he went democratic,thats my take on it.
Would have could have should have only and only if military rule would have stayed for a couple of more years.
Going democratic was poison,in this case.
Btw,your english is to complicated for a simple mind like myself(maybe we meant the same,i dont know ).

Sure but that was after the window I am talking about anyway. When did Musharraf enter the political scene more formally again?

You are right it was silly to try launder a coup into political democratic power (And playing political bandaid feelz stuff like with NRO...looking at list of characters rehabilitated). Tantamount to passing many big ole kidney stones I would think....its not going to work out well in the end at all. In same shoes I would just stick to being a dictator and own up to it....rather than doing the muddying up stuff...."poison" as you say....because you basically go against your own fundamental argument in the end for a coup (that the country was not ready for politics/democracy etc or it had failed). Re-inserting all that in your egotistic terms later....yeah that never works well. Bad move. But then ego trumps rationalism most of the time.