MRCA ::: India May Cancel Fighter Competition

[sancho]

Though he is biggest troll in LCA sticky thread...

He meant in the export category.

Exactly, those weapons and techs that are not on offer for exports, logically can't be bought by India.

 

[joyamalik87]

can someone make a poll , to see how many of us wants to reject MMRCA tender..

One more thread.....? Huh....

 

[MZUBAIR]

I think Rafel is not a bad deal , because it will come loaded with modern features , and french alone manufactures this jet, and they are less dependent on other technology, example entire AESA radar is built using french parts.
Were as in Su-30 MKI Cryptographic circuits were made in china.
French are not stupid they know how to survive.
French like Russia has helped India in many technologies. Example : Dhruv Helicopter Shakti Engine.
French also help U.S.A and Russia in Aircraft Industries and technology development.
Mirage 2000 is marked superior to F-16 in 2000 -05 .
French supply of spare parts is better then BAE, U.S.A and Russia .
Quality better then China.
French geeks are also good,- just added.
French air crafts are multirole and easy to modify in role say from interceptor to Bomber or escort.

---------- Post added at 10:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 PM ----------



Are U aware of situation and facts or many be U got confused ?

But good U brought your thoughts , just read the MMRCA deal it will be clear.

Read out the history French never ever had World Superior AC.
They are still lagging AESA for Rafel

 

[Black Widow]

Read out the history French never ever had World Superior AC.
They are still lagging AESA for Rafel

Mirage was a good platform and it proved better than contemporary F16. It was good in ground attack role. Our requirement is exactly same, We want a MMRCA which is best in ground attack role with good Air-superiority role...

I found only 2 aircraft fitting into role. F18SH (The flying Truck) and Rafael (Equally capable ). EFT is best machine but its more advance in Air-superiority.

 

[Hello_10]

Hi, you obviously support the Mig 35 from a Russian point of view, but you have to look at it from an Indian point of view to see if it's useful for Indian forces or not.
IN (not IAF) wasn't that impressed by the Mig 29K, they simply had no other option than buying it, because the Gorshkov deal was a combined deal with 16 fighters. For IAC1 they could have gone for another fighter, but that would had increased logistics and maintenance, since they already planned with N-LCA and Mig 29k for the first 2 carriers. That's why the additional order of 29 Migs was a logical step, while the chances are high that the Mig will be rejected by IN for IAC 2, in favour for western fighters.
For IAF the Mig 35 was a no go from the start, the bad experience with Mig fighter quality and after sale support, the overdependence on Russian arms in general, which made Indian forces vulnerable for constant cost increasings, the lack of capability compared to the other contenders or even the fact that not even Russian air force wanted to buy (just like no export customer has interest) it for a long time, made the Mig a bad choice for India.
Not to forget that the fighter is still in prototype stage only, all "Mig 35s" we saw so far, are just older airframes (Mig 29M2, Mig 29K/KUB) with some new techs integrated, so basically demonstrators. The final Mig 35 version with bigger wings for more fuel and weaponstations does not exist yet. Just like the radar is not ready and availabe in time, there are still weight issues with the Zhuk AE and 2013 was stated a while back, since then nothing new was reported and without credible funding Phazotron will have difficulties anyway.
The list of disadvantages for India by choosing the Mig is very long and that's why it wasn't surprising that it was rejected. The unit cost might be cheap and the pilot training is easy, but then we have higher maintenance costs, less capable engines (reportedly a point where IAF had issues) avionics and weapons compared to what the western vendors had on offer. And if all this would not be enough, Russian industry can't offer us more on the industrial side either. We already have the best techs and weapons from your country (which is a good thing), but we were searching for other alternatives, better ToT and more industrial benefits. Here again the western (Europeans) countries offered the clearly more interesting things for India.

If we wanted the cheapest fighter (overall costs) we would have selected the Gripen.
If we wanted the best political advantages we would have selected the F18SH.
If we wanted the best industrial package we might select the EF.
If we wanted the best fighter (for our forces) we might select the Rafale.

Sancho, I can see how many messages you have posted till now so I would like to advise you that please come to an end within few replies as I have seen even a year long ‘Vs’ between aircrafts for MRCA on different forums, and most of the replies were crap. What I have said before, we always have to deal with ‘Grey areas’ and you cant get everything in one product, if you are on market research. If you gain on one point then you are losing on other side at the same time and you have to understand that whether a product can do your work in a better way with less cost or not, and here, I find Mig35 only suitable for this MRCA.
My Answers to your points are as below:

1. IN didn’t reject Mig29K for IAC-2 but it is clear that IAC-2 would come in operation after 2020, in the time of 5th gen stealth aircraft so its obvious that they would think for a naval version of PAK FA/ FGFA for it. What I said before, Mig21 was a frontline aircraft till 1971 but it was shot down by the militants by the guns/ missiles they brought on their hands in Kargil in 1999 as there is a generation gap between Mig21 to Mig29/ Mirage200H. you cant upgrade an aircraft when its generation expires but you do need something in your inventory till its current generation, 4th gen, and hence they singed the best available option for IAC-1, that is Mig29k. they knew that Rafale or other western aircrafts may be ‘little’ better than the Mig29k but IN also know that more or less Mig29K will also do the similar work if the pilot is good, for what Indian pilots have experience of using it. Like, even if Mirage2000H upgrade cost around $79mil right now, IAF is considering its upgrades but don’t want to buy even new Super Hornet which would also cost around $80mil with fully loaded with missiles, the reason is, IAF have good experience on Mirage2000H but they don’t know Super Hornet. Too many things counts when you take any decision and we mainly have to deal with Grey areas.

2. The best aircraft on the Indian border is F16 block 52, not the J10, which also has the old airframe and no opportunity for future upgrades as US is closing its production lines but still it has many customers worldwide who are making order for it right now also. Until you are within 4th gen, whether F16, Mig35, Rafale etc, all will do the work as they all are on offered with AESA radar with improved multi role performance. And when era of 5th gen will start from 2020 onwards, all these 4th gen will be put on back foot, for the operations within Indian territory only like an interceptor, when 5th gen stealth aircrafts will take charge on the frontline.
3. No aircraft is offered for zero maintenance cost and didn’t IAF chose to upgrade Mig29 to Mig29SMT standard? They know this is a very capable aircraft and can well work till 2035 within the budget. Even if you have to pay little more for the maintenance cost, it occurs over the time and you already have full infrastructure of Mig29s and have been using Migs for over last 50 years.

4. Engine of Rafale is also weak and Kaveri is on offer to replace its engine. and the claims for improved performance of EFT or Rafale, avionics etc, is mainly based on the assumed upgrades which will be given to them till 2015 while you already have full techs of next gen aircraft PAK FA with involvements from design to production which will come in production from 2018? And you may add 2-3 years delay in MRCA program so both of them will come in production at the same time? And also, no full TOT you may expect from European suppliers. See the condition on either Scorpion submarine deal or on 5 years longs upgrade negotiations for Mirage2000, they won’t let you touch their best tech until they develop the better one than the previous one, don’t fool yourself. Here, the only thing make sense is, either get a 5th gen stealth aircraft or live with Mig35/ LCA with keeping SU30MKI as the frontline aircraft with Mig35 also, and why not, Mig35/ Mig29VOT is the most advance version of Mig29s which has proved its capabilities in front of other western 4th gen aircrafts many times in past.

5. > Gripen is a different type of aircraft. Single engine without AESA on offer right now, which could help to upgrade LCA also but IAF wanted a better one 4++ like Mig35, F16, Rafale, EFT…
 Once you go inside trap of US by F18SH, you will move on a ‘One Way Path’ with limited opportunity to return. They want to rule and you have strong belief on NAM. they are falling powers and want to get something done before the world may get changed and you want to become the best in the world. India and US will only have to have face to face in future.
 I repeat, EFT is 4th gen and you already engaged on 5th gen aircrafts. EFT which doesn’t have AESA also right now, still developing, and it will have improved A2G performance till 2015? You will get few techs but you are paying around $10bn extra for it, as compare to Mig35.
 Rafale is the best till 2020 only, untill time of 5th gen aircrafts will start. And after that, Rafale will be sent on back foot for doing the works within the Indian Territory and Stealth aircrafts PAK FA/ FGFA will be sent in the territory of China from 2020 onwards, if required. And for any very specialized multi role/ A2G works within Indian territory, if it will be needed, you have $3.9bn upgrade offer for 51 Mirage2000?

 

[FireFighter]

I was also predicting this news. Indian govt need to come to senses. Spending 10+ billion is simply outrageous considering bad economic times n no immediate need for such a sophisticated fleet. It doesnt face threat from china or anyone in region,It will triger another needless arms race.

 

[Archie]

I was also predicting this news. Indian govt need to come to senses. Spending 10+ billion is simply outrageous considering bad economic times n no immediate need for such a sophisticated fleet. It doesnt face threat from china or anyone in region,It will triger another needless arms race.

Dude , its the opinion of a Russian expert to a Russian Daily , Maybe he is just sulking at having the Mig35 rejected

By the way , the way Uncle Sam is Lobbying , I do see a chance that India might Just go ahead with Purchase of 126 F35A for 20 Billion USD , If MMRCA winners cost more than 15 Billion USD for the 126 Aircrafts

 

[SQ8]

Dude , its the opinion of a Russian expert to a Russian Daily , Maybe he is just sulking at having the Mig35 rejected

By the way , the way Uncle Sam is Lobbying , I do see a chance that India might Just go ahead with Purchase of 126 F35A for 20 Billion USD , If MMRCA winners cost more than 15 Billion USD for the 126 Aircrafts

That will be a BIG mistake.
and will undermine the AMCA.. and set back India's self reliance for a while.
A step that India needs to undertake herself will be served on a plate.
And a highly complex system will be bound to the US.

 

[Archie]

That will be a BIG mistake.
and will undermine the AMCA.. and set back India's self reliance for a while.
A step that India needs to undertake herself will be served on a plate.
And a highly complex system will be bound to the US.

Sirji let me tell you something

I dont see AMCA in service before 2030 , when India replaces the 51 Mirage 2000V5 and 57 Jaguar Darin IV

In the meantime , 95 Mig27 and 78 Non upgraded Jaguars would need to be replaced by 2020-22

 

[Archie]

Infact if we Do go ahead with purchase of Rafale or EF as MMRCA ,

Then you will probably see another F-MRCA contract being announced in 2024 to Replace 100+ Jaguars and Mirage 2000 in service at that time , with an order for 72-80 Aircrafts with option for another 54-60 aircrafts , coz i dont see us ordering additional 64-74 mmrca in 2020 just coz AMCA is delayed beyond 2025

 

[Thundersword]

Infact if we Do go ahead with purchase of Rafale or EF as MMRCA ,

Then you will probably see another F-MRCA contract being announced in 2024 to Replace 100+ Jaguars and Mirage 2000 in service at that time , with an order for 72-80 Aircrafts with option for another 54-60 aircrafts , coz i dont see us ordering additional 64-74 mmrca in 2020 just coz AMCA is delayed beyond 2025

Dude I don't think AMCA will take that long!!! LCA was a diff case you can't expect everything to turnout very late..... even if we run to sum serious hitches we will have options say maybe a foreign radar(hopefully not)!! unlike for LCA when we were sanctioned!!! F-35 will be absolutely useless coz if them Yanks embargo us we have no spares!!! Besides the AMCA is our chance to strengthen our indigenous aircraft industry!!! HAL can't keep on assembling aircraft!!! If we go for the F-35 the IAF will lose interest in AMCA and there is nothing more worse than that and I completely agree with Santro!!!

 

[SQ8]

Sirji let me tell you something

I dont see AMCA in service before 2030 , when India replaces the 51 Mirage 2000V5 and 57 Jaguar Darin IV

In the meantime , 95 Mig27 and 78 Non upgraded Jaguars would need to be replaced by 2020-22

Yes.. but the role that the Mig-27's and jaguars filled can be fielded by much cheaper aircraft.
Just because you can does not mean you need a Bugatti veyron to go pick the kids.
Sure.. if you are ****** rich you may do that at your pleasure.But at the off chance things stop looking up for you... it will be a source of regret that you bought all those Veyron's and not something simpler.

 

[sancho]

What I have said before, we always have to deal with ‘Grey areas’ and you cant get everything in one product, if you are on market research. If you gain on one point then you are losing on other side at the same time and you have to understand that whether a product can do your work in a better way with less cost or not, and here, I find Mig35 only suitable for this MRCA...

Exactly, but then you take that product / offer that suits most of your requirements and not the one that suits just a few, that's why Rafale/EF was shortlisted and the Mig was not! It might have one of the lowest unit costs, but also offers the least amount of advantages.

Btw, the Mig has better thrust than the Rafale only with AB thrust, the dry thust is similar and with the lower emptyweight, the Rafale has even a better TWR than the Mig. Besides that the French offered a co-development to fix the problems of our Kaveri engine, not to get more thrust for Rafale, that's why the ToT of the French engine is an advantage that we get, not a disadvantage.
Especially in the engine area India prefers western techs, because they are better in quality terms, with longer life and easier maintenance. That's why we rejected Russian offers of the single engine RD 33 version for LCA MK2 and only evaluated western engines instead.

Wrt Kargil, IAF wasn't unsatisfied with Mig 21 only, but also with Mig 27 and 29 too, because none of the Russian fighters were able to use guided weapons in CAS, which made them ineffective. That's where the Mirage showed it's qualities as an Multi Role Combat Aircraft and why IAF prefered the Mirage 2000-5 over the Mig 29SMT in the initial MRCA competition. It was more capable, but at the same time also cheaper and easier to opereate/maintain. The same applies now to the Rafale compared to the Mig 35 + the advantage of the way better future potential for the reasons I mentioned in my last post.

The Mig 29/35 is of course not a bad fighter in gerneral, but it was developed for the requirements of the past, compared with modern designs and the requirments of current and future air combats, it can't hold it's own anymore. We have the MKI and are more than happy with it, we will co-develop the FGFA and can't wait to see it flying in Indian air space, but they are exceptional fighters, the Mig isn't anymore.

 

[sancho]

Infact if we Do go ahead with purchase of Rafale or EF as MMRCA ,

Then you will probably see another F-MRCA contract being announced in 2024 to Replace 100+ Jaguars and Mirage 2000 in service at that time

No, because most of the fighters you mentioned will be replaced by additional MMRCAs (which are speculated) or even FGFA by then. Keep in mind that all new fighters will be MRCA, which means they can be used in A2A and A2G roles, that's why even today the MKI replaces Mig 23 and Mig 27 squads. The earlier is already replaced except of a few trainer versions, from the latter only 2 squads were upraded to remain in service until 2020.
Also as Santro mentioned, times are changing, there is no need for dedicated manned strike fighters anymore. More and more traditional fighter roles are beeing taken over by unmanned aircrafts! Reconnaissance was the first one, Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya showed that CAS is now diverted too and in the near future we will see SEAD, deep strikes and EW support swithing as well. That's why an armed UAV and the AURA UCAV are way more important developments for IAF, than AMCA and why all bigger countries are concentrating their resources on unmanned developments.

 

[ejaz007]

MMRCA: Updates and Developments


June 11/12:

India’s IDSA is the bearer of some unpleasant news, given the M-MRCA competition’s deliberate decision to exclude costs from its shortlist:

”...actual fighter aircraft strength has fallen to close to 32 squadrons. These reduced numbers are of major concern to the IAF…. This [M-MRCA] programme for 126 aircraft, despite licensed production of all but 18 aircraft, is still likely to cost between US $10 and 20 billion. While it was presumed a few years ago that funds for defence would not be a constraint in the future, a slowing economy has led to these funds being curtailed…. The writing on the wall is clear: resource constraints are looming for the armed forces.”

IDSA recommends more indigenous production instead, without acknowledging that technology limitations and failures to deliver were the impetus behind M-MRCA in the first place. Having designed a competition slanted toward the 2 most expensive fighters, the IAF has few ways out of its self-created box. India could cut the M-MRCA buy, and use the funds to buy more of HAL’s Tejas lightweight fighters. The problem is that Tejas is experiencing production rate issues, and isn’t fully fielded yet. India could re-do the M-MRCA competition with cost as a factor this time, adding years to the process. Or it could go ahead with the full M-MRCA buy, and forego a number of other defense projects to pay for it.


India’s M-MRCA Fighter Competition: Rafale is L-1, but No Deal Yet