Mosul Consulate Hostage Crisis (Update: All Hostages Have Been Freed)

[Serpentine]

I just invite you to read the course of events from the beginning, one more time. Then you would see if the majority was not supporting them, they would not have such a quick achievements.
BTW, have you forgot that how much hatred, Sunni arabs have against Shias? Just check out their TV channels and media, and you would find out that they are ready to do Jihad against the so called Safavi army of shias. All the blame is on your beloved Khamenei regime for creating such a mess.

Taliban is also roaming freely in many areas of Pakistan or Afghanistan, does it mean that majority of Pakistanis and Afghans support Taliban? There is always a minority who supports them and this minority is very important. If ISIL recruits even 10,000 soldiers from Iraqi Sunnis, it'll be more than enough for them. Does it mean the majority support them? Of course not. That's a lame conclusion. You should also mention many Sunni tribes who are allied with Iraqi army and fight ISIL, which are called 'Sahwa' by ISIL.

But anyway, even if most of them support ISIL (unlikely), then they should taste what they've been asking for, just like how those Iraqis who voted for Maliki should deal with government failures. This doesn't have anything to do with Iran, the hatred goes much before 35 years. They have also had many suicide operations against American forces, Christians, even secular and ordinary Sunnis, not only Shias. So their sole problem is not Shias, otherwise they wouldn't declare governments of Jordan, Turkey, Egypt and even KSA itself as heretics and infidels. They are also fighting Egyptian army, Pakistani army, both of which are majority Sunnis. Not to forget this consulate attack which happens to belong to 'Sunni majority' Turkey. This is a disease that will bite everyone in this region, no matter how much you try to associate this with Iran because of political hatred. You should not mix politics in different matters. And finally, I have studied more than enough about the roots of these groups, their ideologies and their mentality.

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

Im probably one of the last persons here to excuse the goverments faults but sometimes you need critical thinking before blaming the goverment out of your anger.

I saw that critical thinking in your post, therefore decided to leave the discussion.

...please leave me out of this critical thinking.

 

[what]

Im probably one of the last persons here to excuse the goverments faults but sometimes you need critical thinking before blaming the goverment out of your anger.

I too blame our government, the root of this shit is not only, but also our government. Causing instability in foreign countries, delivering supplies and weapons to groups you dont really know. Supporting seperatism in Iraq and destabilizing the central Iraqi government.

Those are all leading to these events.

 

[EasyNow]

Taliban is also roaming freely in many areas of Pakistan or Afghanistan, does it mean that majority of Pakistanis and Afghans support Taliban? There is always a minority who supports them and this minority is very important. If ISIL recruits even 10,000 soldiers from Iraqi Sunnis, it'll be more than enough for them. Does it mean the majority support them? Of course not. That's a lame conclusion. You should also mention many Sunni tribes who are allied with Iraqi army and fight ISIL, which are called 'Sahwa' by ISIL.

But anyway, even if most of them support ISIL (unlikely), then they should taste what they've been asking for, just like how those Iraqis who voted for Maliki should deal with government failures. This doesn't have anything to do with Iran, the hatred goes much before 35 years. They have also had many suicide operations against American forces, Christians, even secular and ordinary Sunnis, not only Shias. So their sole problem is not Shias, otherwise they wouldn't declare governments of Jordan, Turkey, Egypt and even KSA itself as heretics and infidels. They are also fighting Egyptian army, Pakistani army, both of which are majority Sunnis. Not to forget this consulate attack which happens to belong to 'Sunni majority' Turkey. This is a disease that will bite everyone in this region, no matter how much you try to associate this with Iran because of political hatred. You should not mix politics in different matters. And finally, I have studied more than enough about the roots of these groups, their ideologies and their mentality.

You are right, the supporters of ISIL, TTP, etc even if they are 0.01% of the population are lethal because they are active participants in their movement. The problem is that we are far beyond 0.01% in many countries. I realise now why people like Saddam, Gaddafi and even the Saudi's take a zero tolerance approach to these guys.

 

[xenon54 out]

I too blame our government, the root of this shit is not only, but also our government. Causing instability in foreign countries, delivering supplies and weapons to groups you dont really know. Supporting seperatism in Iraq and destabilizing the central Iraqi government.

Those are all leading to these events.

I agree with you in this.

 

[rmi5]

Serpentine, I don't want to continue the discussion about this with you, since it would derail the topic, but, here is my thoughts:

Taliban is also roaming freely in many areas of Pakistan or Afghanistan, does it mean that majority of Pakistanis and Afghans support Taliban? There is always a minority who supports them and this minority is very important. If ISIL recruits even 10,000 soldiers from Iraqi Sunnis, it'll be more than enough for them. Does it mean the majority support them? Of course not. That's a lame conclusion. You should also mention many Sunni tribes who are allied with Iraqi army and fight ISIL, which are called 'Sahwa' by ISIL.

Taliban is also working in a tribal region and they, definitely, 100%, have the tribes support. Your problem is that, you people, ajem(farsi, persian, ... whatever) people, have no nomad or tribal background, so, you can't understand why, and how Taliban and ISIS, ... can roam freely in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, ...

But anyway, even if most of them support ISIL (unlikely), then they should taste what they've been asking for, just like how those Iraqis who voted for Maliki should deal with government failures. This doesn't have anything to do with Iran, the hatred goes much before 35 years. They have also had many suicide operations against American forces, Christians, even secular and ordinary Sunnis, not only Shias. So their sole problem is not Shias, otherwise they wouldn't declare governments of Jordan, Turkey, Egypt and even KSA itself as heretics and infidels. They are also fighting Egyptian army, Pakistani army, both of which are majority Sunnis. Not to forget this consulate attack which happens to belong to 'Sunni majority' Turkey. This is a disease that will bite everyone in this region, no matter how much you try to associate this with Iran because of political hatred. You should not mix politics in different matters. And finally, I have studied more than enough about the roots of these groups, their ideologies and their mentality.

This mess started when your mullahs started to talk non-sense, and gave motivation, money, equipment, ... to sectarian groups. All of these baboons, from Hekmatyar to ISIS, and from Hamas to Haghani school, have had connections with your regime. There was no mess like this 35 years ago in Middle east, and all started with mullahs existence. Isn't it strange? Just think about it ...

 

[Hakan]

Only @Armstrong can save the day.

Bro here is the telephone number of the consulate:
LOCAL: (060) 780.588
INTERNATIONAL: +964.60.780.588
Turkish Consulate-General in Mosul, Iraq

See if you can negotiate with them and get the hostages released.

 

[waz]

Very sad. I pray for the well being and safety of our Turkish kin.

As for these savages, they are beyond approach. Rape, murder, looting they have done it all.

The government is better approaching these people from the scholars they follow, or directly themselves. Force will lead to deaths and they have killed Turks before (truck drivers).

 

[Serpentine]

Serpentine, I don't want to continue the discussion about this with you, since it would derail the topic, but, here is my thoughts:
Taliban is also working in a tribal region and they, definitely, 100%, have the tribes support. Your problem is that, you people, ajem(farsi, persian, ... whatever) people, have no nomad or tribal background, so, you can't understand why, and how Taliban and ISIS, ... can roam freely in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, ...
This mess started when your mullahs started to talk non-sense, and gave motivation, money, equipment, ... to sectarian groups. All of these baboons, from Hekmatyar to ISIS, and from Hamas to Haghani school, have had connections with your regime. There was no mess like this 35 years ago in Middle east, and all started with mullahs existence. Isn't it strange? Just think about it ...

I was going to write a long answer, but it'll only lead to another endless argument.
Just one thing: I don't have to be a nomad to understand how tribes work, and tribalism in Turkish areas is worlds apart from the concept of tribalism in Arab countries or Pakistan/Afghanistan. Turkish members may clarify on this, do tribes exist in their countries the way it exists in Arab countries or Pakistan and Afghanistan?

About Pakistan's example or Afghanistan, it doesn't matter how many tribes support Taliban, what matters the most is, do the majority of people support them? I'll leave the answer to absolute majority of Pakistani members on this forum.

I want to say this again, if majority of Sunnis support ISIL (which they don't), then people in Tikrit, Mosul, Fallujah and Ramadi should be happy right? Fine, because they are getting what they have been asking for.

PS: About Iran's role, let's just agree to disagree. It'll only derail the thread.

 

[Hakan]

Lol i just realized that the thread title had a spelling mistake.

 

[Armstrong]

Taliban is also working in a tribal region and they, definitely, 100%, have the tribes support.

No they don't; the TTP took benefit of the Tribal tradition of mehman-navazi or hospitality & entrenched themselves there when they came there before colluding with fringe elements & outcasts from those Tribes to progressively assassinate Tribal Maliks or Chieftains hence why so many Chieftains of those tribes have lost their lives in the previous 10 years.

The Tribes were & are the first & foremost casualty of TTP barbarity because many of them have suffered tremendously under them but because they have neither the training nor the leadership nor the resources to fight an Enemy that is fighting them from the inside they were living as Hostages within their own lands !

Additionally if the Tribes actually did support them than :

(i) the FC - the paramilitary organization fighting the TTP & responsible for clearing most of the Tribal Areas - wouldn't be fighting these vermin because the FC is almost overwhelmingly so recruited from amongst those same Tribes !

(ii) the Tribes themselves wouldn't have come up with armed Tribal Lashkars & driven out the TTP from their lands as they did most memorably in Bajaur where they fought alongside the FC & the Army to clear that Tribal Agency of TTP presence !

Now we've got the TTP either in :

(i) Afghanistan's provinces that border Pakistan where neither the Afghan Government's nor NATO's writ is present & the TTP operate with complete impunity !

(ii) North Waziristan of Pakistan's Tribal Areas where the remnants of the TTP are present. But clearing that Agency is a very complicated thing because of the following reasons:

(a) the collateral damage after each Operation is immense with the People living in each of the Tribal Agencies loosing their everything in the process of being liberated & these areas are poverty stricken so you can well imagine how tremendously hard it must hit them.

(b) there was a general consensus amongst the political parties that we should talk to the TTP - which is an umbrella organization of dozens upon dozens of groups - & try to wean away some groups who'd be more amenable to standing down after negotiations under the ambit of the Pakistani Constitution.

(c) we're already stretched thin because we've got our arch rival India to deal to on the East, a belligerent Afghanistan to the West, some border problems with Iran in the South-West & inter-security operations or consolidations in the rest of the country which means its not easy to spare a few tens of thousands of troops for a new operation when most probably the TTP is going cross the extremely porous Pak-Afghan border & go to Afghanistan like they did pretty much after each Operation because the Border is filed with thousands of ravines, gullies & caves which makes it highly porous & because the Afghan & the NATO forces on the other side have yet to honor our request of nabbing them - the TTP - when they make a run for Afghanistan !

So the Tribals aren't to blame....its just very complicated !

 

[Serpentine]

No they don't; the TTP took benefit of the Tribal tradition of mehman-navazi or hospitality & entrenched themselves there when they came there before colluding with fringe elements & outcasts from those Tribes to progressively assassinate Tribal Maliks or Chieftains hence why so many Chieftains of those tribes have lost their lives in the previous 10 years.

The Tribes were & are the first & foremost casualty of TTP barbarity because many of them have suffered tremendously under them but because they have neither the training nor the leadership nor the resources to fight an Enemy that is fighting them from the inside they were living as Hostages within their own lands !

Additionally if the Tribes actually did support them than :

(i) the FC - the paramilitary organization fighting the TTP & responsible for clearing most of the Tribal Areas - wouldn't be fighting these vermin because the FC is almost overwhelmingly so recruited from amongst those same Tribes !

(ii) the Tribes themselves wouldn't have come up with armed Tribal Lashkars & driven out the TTP from their lands as they did most memorably in Bajaur where they fought alongside the FC & the Army to clear that Tribal Agency of TTP presence !

Now we've got the TTP either in :

(i) Afghanistan's provinces that border Pakistan where neither the Afghan Government's nor NATO's writ is present & the TTP operate with complete impunity !

(ii) North Waziristan of Pakistan's Tribal Areas where the remnants of the TTP are present. But clearing that Agency is a very complicated thing because of the following reasons:

(a) the collateral damage after each Operation is immense with the People living in each of the Tribal Agencies loosing their everything in the process of being liberated & these areas are poverty stricken so you can well imagine how tremendously hard it must hit them.

(b) there was a general consensus amongst the political parties that we should talk to the TTP - which is an umbrella organization of dozens upon dozens of groups - & try to wean away some groups who'd be more amenable to standing down after negotiations under the ambit of the Pakistani Constitution.

(c) we're already stretched thin because we've got our arch rival India to deal to on the East, a belligerent Afghanistan to the West, some border problems with Iran in the South-West & inter-security operations or consolidations in the rest of the country which means its not easy to spare a few tens of thousands of troops for a new operation when most probably the TTP is going cross the extremely porous Pak-Afghan border & go to Afghanistan like they did pretty much after each Operation because the Border is filed with thousands of ravines, gullies & caves which makes it highly porous & because the Afghan & the NATO forces on the other side have yet to honor our request of nabbing them - the TTP - when they make a run for Afghanistan !

So the Tribals aren't to blame....its just very complicated !

Thanks for clarifying mate, naturally you know more than us about the support base for Taliban in Pakistan, and your post is exactly what I'm meaning to say. Terrorist groups (true terrorists I mean, like AQ or ISIL or Taliban) may be able to gather some sympathizers, but they'll never be able to have the support of majority in any country on this planet.

 

[rmi5]

No they don't; the TTP took benefit of the Tribal tradition of mehman-navazi or hospitality & entrenched themselves there when they came there before colluding with fringe elements & outcasts from those Tribes to progressively assassinate Tribal Maliks or Chieftains hence why so many Chieftains of those tribes have lost their lives in the previous 10 years.

The Tribes were & are the first & foremost casualty of TTP barbarity because many of them have suffered tremendously under them but because they have neither the training nor the leadership nor the resources to fight an Enemy that is fighting them from the inside they were living as Hostages within their own lands !

Additionally if the Tribes actually did support them than :

(i) the FC - the paramilitary organization fighting the TTP & responsible for clearing most of the Tribal Areas - wouldn't be fighting these vermin because the FC is almost overwhelmingly so recruited from amongst those same Tribes !

(ii) the Tribes themselves wouldn't have come up with armed Tribal Lashkars & driven out the TTP from their lands as they did most memorably in Bajaur where they fought alongside the FC & the Army to clear that Tribal Agency of TTP presence !

Now we've got the TTP either in :

(i) Afghanistan's provinces that border Pakistan where neither the Afghan Government's nor NATO's writ is present & the TTP operate with complete impunity !

(ii) North Waziristan of Pakistan's Tribal Areas where the remnants of the TTP are present. But clearing that Agency is a very complicated thing because of the following reasons:

(a) the collateral damage after each Operation is immense with the People living in each of the Tribal Agencies loosing their everything in the process of being liberated & these areas are poverty stricken so you can well imagine how tremendously hard it must hit them.

(b) there was a general consensus amongst the political parties that we should talk to the TTP - which is an umbrella organization of dozens upon dozens of groups - & try to wean away some groups who'd be more amenable to standing down after negotiations under the ambit of the Pakistani Constitution.

(c) we're already stretched thin because we've got our arch rival India to deal to on the East, a belligerent Afghanistan to the West, some border problems with Iran in the South-West & inter-security operations or consolidations in the rest of the country which means its not easy to spare a few tens of thousands of troops for a new operation when most probably the TTP is going cross the extremely porous Pak-Afghan border & go to Afghanistan like they did pretty much after each Operation because the Border is filed with thousands of ravines, gullies & caves which makes it highly porous & because the Afghan & the NATO forces on the other side have yet to honor our request of nabbing them - the TTP - when they make a run for Afghanistan !

So the Tribals aren't to blame....its just very complicated !

The point is that the head of each tribe can be bought. That's why some of them are opposing talibs, and some support them. It has nothing to do with majority opinion.
BTW, there is nothing called majority opinion in a tribal region. only the elders and powerful men of each tribe are important.
BTW, in a tribal region, you cannot even survive one day, if at least some tribes don't support you.
These are simple facts of nomad regions.
In Pakistan, the same shit is going on. they are tribes who are allied with talibs, like here in Iraq and ISIS, and sometimes government buys some of heads of tribes, and they fight against ISIS, or talibs.

 

[Targon]

Davutoğlu: "Nobody should test the might of Turkey"

Did anyone counted how many times we heard that ?

 

[Armstrong]

The point is that the head of each tribe can be bought. That's why some of them are opposing talibs, and some support them. It has nothing to do with majority opinion.
BTW, there is nothing called majority opinion in a tribal region. only the elders and powerful men of each tribe are important.
BTW, in a tribal region, you cannot even survive one day, if at least some tribes don't support you.
These are simple facts of nomad regions.
In Pakistan, the same shit is going on. they are tribes who are allied with talibs, like here in Iraq and ISIS, and sometimes government buys some of heads of tribes, and they fight against ISIS, or talibs.

Fortunately for us that assessment doesn't hold true because otherwise we'd be in a much....much.....much bigger mess than we are in one right now !

The Chieftains are only human & they can be influenced & bribed & all of those things but if most are getting killed than obviously the bribes aren't working & if most of the individuals from those tribes are fighting the TTP either as part of the paramilitary forces (FC), the tribal police (the khasaadaars) or armed tribal militias (the tribal lashkars) than I don't know how one could conclude that the powerful men from those tribes are supporting them or that there are some tribes who are allied with the TTP !

In the Tribal Regions the System that was in-place was a division of powers between the Tribal Chieftain (the Malicks) & the Government Representative (the Political Agent) & they both used to work under the Frontier Crimes Regulations (the FCR) to maintain law & order in those regions hence why before the War On Terror started (in the '90s) the Tribal Areas were amongst the safest places on Earth with a crime rate much lower than the rest of Pakistan.

Unfortunately after the WOT, many Afghans came to Pakistan to seek refuge & many of them were housed by the Tribes, slowly the extremist elements from within the Tribes & from amongst the Afghans started overpowering the Tribes from within which led to the collapse of one of the institutions of the power - the Chieftain & in time the second institution - the political agent - too collapsed which led to the kind of lawlessness that we see over there where the Tribal people are held hostages within their own lands; now the Army cleared most of this but the penetration of years is still there & extremist fringe elements within the society whether Tribal or Non-Tribal does support the TTP which is why these attacks happen & why the TTP can move from one-place to the other !

Besides its not as if the Tribes are asserting themselves anymore because the whole tribal system has collapsed & thats why within this vacuum you've got such elements who operate there & from time-to-time whenever the Tribes can muster enough support they along with the Army & the FC were able to clear their areas & reclaim their lands; now the problem is emanating from those fringe elements who are either living within or have found sanctuaries in places like Kunar or Nuristan in Afghanistan from where they routinely cross over & attack !

So in essence the Tribes are the Victims here...not the other way around !