Most Americans see Pakistan as enemy

[Mercenary]

And NATO are not terrorists? They also killed 28 of our PAKISTANI SOLDIERS who were protecting Pakistan's borders.

Pakistan has much more than Iran. Pakistan has gas reserves in Balochistan, coal reserves in Sindh, gold and copper reserves from Balochistan all the way to Chitral.

Pakistan was placed on sanctions in the 90's-early 2000's by U.S. and Pakistan was doing way better then than it is doing now.

See here is where you lose your argument.

I made the case that if Taliban come back to power in Afghanistan and Al Qaeda and start planning and executing terrorist attacks...what then?

And you have no answer and throw a cop out by claiming NATO is terrorist. Why don't you have the courage to answer the question.

As for natural reserves, Pakistan has plenty but it doesnt have oil which is the key driver for any strong economic growth in this country. But we have to resolve the BLA issue as well.

 

[Bhairava]

Well, it was the monster created by the US in the first place. The US government equated the 'Mujahideen' to the 'Founding Fathers of the US' in the 80s, the same fighters it is fighting today.

Correction - Jointly by US,Pakistan & Saudi Arabia.

Pakistan was a partner then..now it has the controlling stake in the venture.

 

[53fd]

Correction - Jointly by US,Pakistan & Saudi Arabia.

Pakistan was a partner then..now it has the controlling stake in the venture.

Correction: Created by US & Saudi Arabia. Trained by Pakistan. A joint venture not doubt.

 

[Mercenary]

Correction: Created by US & Saudi Arabia. Trained by Pakistan. A joint venture not doubt.

Addendum: Then used by Pakistan starting in 1989 in Kashmir and in 1993 in Afghanistan.

I don't blame for Pakistan doing this. Pakistan's Western border was in complete chaos, and if the Taliban can bring it under control so be it.

I just didn't like the fact that Al Qaeda and other terrorists came there.

If the Taliban can bring stability to Afghanistan without Al Qaeda coming there, then I am all for it.

 

[Bhairava]

Correction: Created by US & Saudi Arabia. Trained by Pakistan. A joint venture not doubt.

Isn't training a part of creation ?

The underlying point is Pakistan willingly joined in that project, provided manpower & did the training.

That makes them as culpable as any of the other two.

Also point to be noted is while US severed the ties after the 90's Pakistan actually enhanced the ties, tried to do a project of its own in Kashmir (in which it failed disastorously) & is therefore more culpable than US in these respects.

 

[53fd]

Isn't training a part of creation ?

No, creation comes through indoctrination, training comes from training to fight.

 

[Bhairava]

No, creation comes through indoctrination, training comes from training to fight.

Semantics.

Still to become a Mujaheddin, you needed Pakistan for the manpower & training. No ?

When you say you create a soldier, the most important tool in the 'creation' is the trainer. Without him the person would only be a brainwashed plant, not a fighter.

Also point to be noted is while US severed the ties after the 90's Pakistan actually enhanced the ties, tried to do a project of its own in Kashmir (in which it failed disastorously) & is therefore more culpable than US in these respects.

 

[53fd]

Semantics.

Not semantics. Someone like yourself who does not understand theological interpretations of Salafism, Takfirism, Deobandism & others can understand this. Indoctrination made these people what they are. You cannot make a person give up his/her life like a militant does without indoctrination.

Still to become a Mujaheddin, you needed Pakistan for the manpower & training. No ?

Answered above. Training is training to fight, it does not have anything to the creation of the fighter. The indoctrination is through affecting the mental state, & that is what creates the militant. You cannot train a person to fight, but you cannot convince him to give up his life without indoctrination. Training comes after indoctrination. You can be a lousy fighter, but still be a militant. Training only trains a militant to become a better fighter.

When you say you create a soldier, the most important tool in the 'creation' is the trainer.

When you create a militant, the most important thing is that Madrassah. Training with arms comes later.

 

[Omar1984]

See here is where you lose your argument.

I made the case that if Taliban come back to power in Afghanistan and Al Qaeda and start planning and executing terrorist attacks...what then?

And you have no answer and throw a cop out by claiming NATO is terrorist. Why don't you have the courage to answer the question.

Taliban already have power in Afghanistan and a presence almost everywhere in Afghanistan thats why U.S. is desperate to get them to come to the table. According to White House officials, Al Qaeda is weaker than ever before so why worry about them? Osama Bin Laden is already dead. Besides, Taliban and Al Qaeda had friction in the past. The most important thing to Taliban is that foreign invaders leave their country, Al Qaeda is not as important to them and Taliban can be pressured to keep the few remaining weak Al Qaeda members away. Theres no denying that Taliban have a great influence on Afghanistan's future.

As for natural reserves, Pakistan has plenty but it doesnt have oil which is the key driver for any strong economic growth in this country. But we have to resolve the BLA issue as well.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/79330-oil-gas-dicovered-khyber-pakhtunkhwa.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...andmark-oil-discovery-khyber-pakhtunkhwa.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/134789-oil-discovered-essa-khel-mianwali.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/136323-reko-diq-resources-estimated-730m-tons.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...n-cubic-feet-shale-gas-reserves-pakistan.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...s-found-heart-kohat-town-more-formations.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/83073-another-reko-diq-north-waziristan.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...-oil-deposits-located-near-karachi-coast.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...5-trillion-cubic-feet-tight-gas-reserves.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...rves-discovered-punjab-province-pakistan.html

Thar coal to ensure energy security for 300 years: PM | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

Thar coal guarantees energy security: Dr Samar | Sci-tech | DAWN.COM

Fifth discovery of oil and gas at Tal block – The Express Tribune



And we all know Balochistan has more gas and oil reserves than all these provinces.


And still you would rather have your ancestral country where you have your roots to be some other country's slave?

 

[Mercenary]

Taliban already have power in Afghanistan and a presence almost everywhere in Afghanistan thats why U.S. is desperate to get them to come to the table. According to White House officials, Al Qaeda is weaker than ever before so why worry about them? Osama Bin Laden is already dead. Besides, Taliban and Al Qaeda had friction in the past. The most important thing to Taliban is that foreign invaders leave their country, Al Qaeda is not as important to them and Taliban can be pressured to keep the few remaining weak Al Qaeda members away. Theres no denying that Taliban have a great influence on Afghanistan's future.

If Taliban can guarantee that Al Qaeda will not return to Afghanistan, then I am in favor of winding down this war. But the fact is they haven't shown any willingness to break from their alliance from Al Qaeda.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/79330-oil-gas-dicovered-khyber-pakhtunkhwa.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...andmark-oil-discovery-khyber-pakhtunkhwa.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/134789-oil-discovered-essa-khel-mianwali.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/136323-reko-diq-resources-estimated-730m-tons.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...n-cubic-feet-shale-gas-reserves-pakistan.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...s-found-heart-kohat-town-more-formations.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/economy-development/83073-another-reko-diq-north-waziristan.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...-oil-deposits-located-near-karachi-coast.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...5-trillion-cubic-feet-tight-gas-reserves.html

http://www.defence.pk/forums/econom...rves-discovered-punjab-province-pakistan.html

Thar coal to ensure energy security for 300 years: PM | Pakistan | News | Newspaper | Daily | English | Online

Thar coal guarantees energy security: Dr Samar | Sci-tech | DAWN.COM

Fifth discovery of oil and gas at Tal block – The Express Tribune



And we all know Balochistan has more gas and oil reserves than all these provinces.


And still you would rather have your ancestral country where you have your roots to be some other country's slave?

Pakistan has these resources in Balochistan but Balochistan remains the most poor province of Pakistan because all the money from these resources gets invested in punjab and sindh and balochistan gets very little in return and thats why you see groups like BLA emerge.

 

[Bhairava]

........

When you create a militant, the most important thing is that Madrassah. Training with arms comes later.

So are you saying Pakistan had no hand in creation of the 'final product' - the veritable Mujaheddin ?

And even the Madarsah part - the mullahs were all Pakistani/Afghani -only the idealogy is Saudi.

 

[53fd]

So are you saying Pakistan had no hand in creation of the 'final product' - the veritable Mujaheddin ?

And even the Madarsah part - the mullahs were all Pakistani/Afghani -only the idealogy is Saudi.

The ideology is what creates the fighters. Training is what makes them a good fighter as opposed to a bad one. The mullahs in Pakistan were indoctrinated by Salafism from Saudi Arabia as well. The US gave money to create the Madrassahs & recruit Arab fighters & their Salafi ideology, so they were imperative in the creation of the Mujahideen. Pakistan trained these fighters into world beaters, with the money & arms given by the US, as well as through the opium drug trade.

 

[Bhairava]

The ideology is what creates the fighters. Training is what makes them a good fighter as opposed to a bad one. The mullahs in Pakistan were indoctrinated by Salafism from Saudi Arabia as well. The US gave money to create the Madrassahs & recruit Arab fighters & their Salafi ideology, so they were imperative in the creation of the Mujahideen. Pakistan trained these fighters into world beaters, with the money & arms given by the US, as well as through the opium drug trade.

You have not answered by question and just bla bla ing what I already know. Question is -

So are you saying Pakistan had no hand in creation of the 'final product' - the veritable Mujaheddin ?

And even the Madarsah part - the mullahs were all Pakistani/Afghani -only the idealogy is Saudi.

 

[53fd]

You have not answered by question and just bla bla ing what I already know. Question is -

So are you saying Pakistan had no hand in creation of the 'final product' - the veritable Mujaheddin ?

And even the Madarsah part - the mullahs were all Pakistani/Afghani -only the idealogy is Saudi.

The mullahs were indoctrinated by the Salafi ideology that came from Saudi Arabia. So the mullahs didn't indoctrinate the fighters, the ideology did. Yes, Pakistan did not have a part in creating the fighters. Pakistan had a role in making them good fighters. I am not going to repeat myself again, you don't have anything new to say or to add to the conversation, so this is my last post for now.

 

[Bhairava]

The mullahs were indoctrinated by the Salafi ideology that came from Saudi Arabia. So the mullahs didn't indoctrinate the fighters, the ideology did. Yes, Pakistan did not have a part in creating the fighters. Pakistan had a role in making them good fighters. I am not going to repeat myself again, you don't have anything new to say or to add to the conversation, so this is my last post for now.

So they were born with the knowledge of how to fire different weapons, dismantle & clean the guns, assemble IEDs ?

And the idealogy automatically flowed in from Saudi Arabia and went into the heads of the Pakistani & Afghan fighters directly ? LOL..no matter what the idealogy, if the medium (the person who disseminates it) is not good, it's not going to do jack.

So the conclusion - All three - America, KSA & Pakistan created the Mujaheddin contributing their different expertise. America withdrew in the 90s. Pakistan in contrast enhanced the contacts and tried to pull off a repeat in Kashmir & Punjab failing disastrously.

p.s.- You repeating or not repeating doesn't make a darn difference. The truth is Pakistan had its leg in the **** as much as any other and is equally,if not more, responsible for the consequence.