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More than 300 PAF Mirages & F-7s will be retired in future. A huge market indeed.

Indeed, F104 was a colossal failure. Couldn't turn to save its own life. With the tanks on, had no manuverability and could be taken out with a gnat or a Mig, without the fuel tanks and AIM-9B didn't have the range. But if you believe in the brouhaha, it was a top gun, lol. Looks good in museums and roundabouts, I must say.
AVM Farooq Umar, who actually flew that aircraft in 1965 and broke sound barrier over Indian cities have some other views which completely differ from your perspective.

1a61077.jpg
 
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and broke sound barrier over Indian cities have some other views which completely differ from your perspective

The Indians then returned the favour when they flew their F-104 (MiG-25) over Islamabad. Now does that not make Indian pilots top guns?
 
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AVM Farooq Umar, who actually flew that aircraft in 1965 and broke sound barrier over Indian cities have some other views which completely differ from your perspective.

1a61077.jpg

The sonic boom must have woke up some children and made other dhotis fall off, but that doesn't mean the star fighter was nearly as good as the sabre, or fit our conops. Operational results, success and failures are relevant to the comment, not how much this aircraft psychologically harassed the IAF. If you think that is a metric, then yes, F104 was a real "star"fighter. I don't give analysis from the ejection seat, nor so i subscribe to the flag waving of the fighter jockeys. The criticism of F104 if global, and accepted as not a critique of PAF's prowess, but of a poor aircraft that was not suitable to our CONOPS in wars with India.
 
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The sonic boom must have woke up some children and made other dhotis fall off, but that doesn't mean the star fighter was nearly as good as the sabre, or fit our conops. Operational results, success and failures are relevant to the comment, not how much this aircraft psychologically harassed the IAF. If you think that is a metric, then yes, F104 was a real "star"fighter. I don't give analysis from the ejection seat, nor so i subscribe to the flag waving of the fighter jockeys. The criticism of F104 if global, and accepted as not a critique of PAF's prowess, but of a poor aircraft that was not suitable to our CONOPS in wars with India.
I just quoted a fighter pilot and retired AVM who flew it. It was an excellent system according to him. I respect the views of the man who actually fought a war with India by using an F-104 on the orders of Air Marshal Noor Khan sahab.
 
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I just quoted a fighter pilot and retired AVM who flew it. It was an excellent system according to him. I respect the views of the man who actually fought a war with India by using an F-104 on the orders of Air Marshal Noor Khan sahab.

With improved radar and avionics (of the 70s and early 80s) some European air forces later used the F-104 in the role of a stand-off kill interceptor and a tactical strike platform due to its low RCS, good acceleration and climb rate.

It was one of the worst turning air craft ever.
But due to its acceleration and climb rate, it was always an exhilarating plane to fly.

Kindly google it.
 
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AoA

This is news for me for I think CATIC is still offering this to us. Yes PAF evaluated the aircraft and rejected it because it was not a good fighter. To acquire this PAF needs to be convinced that it needs a fighter bomber. PDF could be a opinion maker. As long as we remain F-16 centric we will be defensive. PAF needs an deep strike offensive element in order to raise the nuclear threshold and ensure deterrence through conventional means.

Regards

@MastanKhan could you comment on JH7B no longer being in production?



AoA

Because a fighter cannot do what a bomber does with the same efficiency.

The JH-7B carries 9000 Kg of ordinance while the Su -35 carries 6900 with 50% internal fuel

Having a strike element with 9000 Kg of bombs greatly reduces the package size.

I remember Sir Qaiser's lecture - PAF concentrates more on the mean rather than the end.

Regards
On the JH7 B thread it has recently been mentioned that the production has shut down. If you look at the Chinese acquisitions for PLAAN , these have mostly been j11 series. This gives you an idea of the utility of JH7B for PLAAN. Their priorities have shifted towards the J series. People need to understand that the PAF will not induct an aircraft which leaves its pilot susceptible to danger on account of lack of maneuverability of the plane specially at sea where loss could mean almost certain death of the occupants. We will be facing Mig 29s and the SU series and irrespective of its load it will remain susceptible to attacks by more maneouverable planes. The Indo Pak theatre is small and distances are small. So you only need a twin engined fighter for the survivability of its occupants in case of damage/malfunction. If you are susceptible on account of lack of maneoverability that is an added risk. I suspect this is the main reason that PAF inspite of the need and lack of choice has rejected the plane. When you reject a platform you will take into account the benefits and the weaknesses of the platform. Inherent weaknesses in design cannot be rectified just by external spit polish and adding some extra features. I gather even PLAAN does not have more than 240 (120 each for PLAAFAND PLANAF) platforms whereas the J series is rapidly increasing this has not been the case for HJ7 and even incremental increase in capabilities has not enticed PLAAN into buying more. It would be akin to PAF buying F14s which were the best planes of the time for maritime strike but now retired from nearly all the AFs. We need to step frorward not back. The SU series may well be the answer. Or we may wait for the J31, both of which would be a capability leap for the PAF. My 2 paisas worth.
A
Addendum: The platform that the self styled arm chair field marshalls are thinking of buying for the PAF ie JH7B is not in production. The stealthy features were never added and no changes were made to the airframe. Avionics upgrade only. A prototype was due to fly in 2015 . I cant varify that it has. I could be wrong but the changes were probably found out to be too expensive and extensive for a fighter bomber of limited utility and was therefore abandoned.
A
 
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The Indians then returned the favour when they flew their F-104 (MiG-25) over Islamabad. Now does that not make Indian pilots top guns?

Doing sonic booms deep in enemy territory n shooting enemy jets in a war is much different than mere air violations during peacetime ..


For some reading ... I suggest you read this thread ;

STARFIGHTER in the PAF battle fleet

The star fighter wasn't the most manoeuvrable jet but it sure did make IAF pilots shyt their uniforms

Run…

It’s a 104

(Paj oye 104 aeee)

By Air Commodore

M Kaiser Tufail

The loss of four Vampires on the opening day of the ë65 war was a major blow to the morale of the IAF and, it was felt in all quarters that something had to be done urgently. A grudge fight was, therefore, planned and the nimble Gnat was chosen as the most suitable fighter. Its small size, good turning ability and fast acceleration were seen to be lethal attributes vis-a-via PAF’s main fighter, the Sabre. A detachment of eight Gnats from Ambala-based No 23 Squadron was flown to Pathankot and Sqn Ldr William Greene was deputed to lead it. Greene had done his Fighter Leaders’ Course from UK and was busy imparting his air combat skills to the Squadron pilots when the war broke out. The more senior Flight Commander, Sqn Ldr Brij Pal Singh Sikand held no grudge in ceding command of the detachment to Greene, in view of the latterís experience. Soon after landing at Pathankot on the evening of 2nd September, Greene was told plainly in an Operations brief that the patrolling Sabres had to be tackled at any cost. The plan consisted for four Mysteres luring the Sabres, while eight low flying Gnats popped up and pounced from two different directions. While the plan was bold, the large number of aircraft demanded a high order of formation integrity and radio discipline. Also, the operation had to be conducted swiftly since the Gnat’s limited fuel did not permit a prolonged turning fight. As the IAF had expected, the morning of 3rd
p5a.jpg
September saw PAF CAPs over Akhnur area. Pak Army’s 7 Division had put in a request for air cover while its reinforcing elements forded River Tawi during the offensive against Akhnur. At first light, two Sabres and a Starfighter stared a vigil which was continued an hour later by another similar trio. The Sabre pair included Flt Lt Yusuf Ali Khan and Flg Off Abdul Khaliq of No 11 Squadron. The singleton was flown by No 9 Squadron’s Flg Off Abbas Mirza, whose schoolboy looks belied his proficiency at handling the aerodynamic wonder that was the F-104 Starfighter.

After patrolling for a while, the Sabres were warned about four bogeys approaching Akhnur at high altitude. Outnumbered two to one, Yusuf decided to go for them anyway and asked for intercept instructions. Before he could pick contact with the reported bogeys up in the sky, his eyes caught a glimpse of four Gnats zooming from below. Yusuf immediately ordered jettisoning of drop tanks but one of his wingman’s tanks did not go. While groping with the switches to sort the problem, Abdul Khaliq lost sight of his leader and, in effect ended up being a liability. Yusuf, therefore, instructed him to head for home and impulsively decided to handle the complex situation all by himself. The four Mysters, having apparently lured the patrolling Sabres, turned north and exited the battle area, leaving the Gnats to strike from behind. Led by Greene, the front Gnat section consisted of Flg Off M R Murdeshwar as No 2, Sqn Ldr Sikand as No 3 and Flg Off V S Pathania as No 4. Following instructions of Sqn Ldr Dandapani, the seasoned controller at Arilritsar Radar, the Gnat Formation continued to look out for the Sabres but to no avail. Yusuf, in the meantime, dove down unnoticed from almost 30,000 ft and without much ado, was able to place his missile sighting reticle on one of the Gnats1. A loud growl indicating Sidewinder lock-on was just what Yusuf could have asked for, in this one-versus-many scenario. Ready 10 press the missile firing button, he was rattled by a series of thuds on his aircraft.

Confounded at what could have gone wrong at the vital moment, he looked back only to see a pair of Gnats behind him! The Gnats that were in front, meanwhile, broke to the left, obviously having been warned by the rear pair just in time. Flt Lt Trevor Keelor and Flt Lt S Krishnaswamy, who were trailing the front Gnat section, had been able to sandwich Yusuf’s Sabre while he was busy with his quarry. Keelor opened up with the Gnat’s 30mm cannon causing extensive damage to the Sabre. A large portion of the elevator had been blown off, but Yusuf continued dog fighting somewhat shakily. Hearing his plight on the radio, Abdul Khaliq made an attempt to rejoin the fight, as he had not gone much far.

Luckily, the Sabres were able to ‘pair up again and they continued to help each other fight their way out of the cloud of six Gnats2. Flt Lt Farooq Hadier, who had been controlling the fight from Sakesar Radar, apprehended the gravity of the situation and directed Mirza’s nearby Starfighter into the midst of ongoing combat. The fearsome, reputation of the Starfighter was not unfounded, it appeared, as the Gnats went helter skelter on sighting it. Abdul Khaliq, who at this time was being chased by Pathania, thus managed to get a lucky reprieve.

Pajh oye.. 104 eeee," Sikand shouted out to Pathania in inimitable Punjabi (the English translation, "Run.. It’s a 104" just cannot grasp the hint of made rush in the expression).

The ‘104’ did not stay in the fight for long as the idea was to charge in at supersonic speed and try a pot shot or, simply overwhelm the adversaries with sheer awe. Mirza did his act a couple of times before leaving the scene; it had a salutary effect as the dogfight broke off and the Gnats started egressing. Sikand, who had initiated the panic call broke off too, but in an opposite direction, thus losing contact with his wingman as well as the rest of the formation. At Sakesar Radar, Farooq was keeping abreast of the situation. Anticipating the need for reinforcement he had scrambled another Starfighter to the scene. Flown by Flt Lt Hakimullah, it arrived a bit late for the Gnats, which had turned away. One Gantat however, was seen to be behaving strangely; having gone back, it turned about and re-entered Pakistani airspace. Hakimullah, who was supersonic at this time, was directed towards the errant intruder. Though Hakimullah could not sight the tiny Gant at the speed he was flying, he learnt from Sakesar that his adversary had slowed down to what appeared like landing speed. Hakimullah set up orbit over the area, wondering if a forced landing was in progress. Shortly thereafter, to his utter surprise, he picked contact with a Gant taxing down the disused Pasrur airstrip near Sialkot. When Green and his formation members landed, they were in celebratory mood for what was believed to be Keelor’s kill. They were expecting Sikand, the gregarious fellow that the he was, to joint in any time for a heartily beer session. Little did they know that their Flight Commander was in Pakistani custody following a bizarre episode? During interrogation Sikand claimed that almost all his systems failed soon after he was separated from his formation. Once he had lost visual contact with everyone, he tired to communicate on the radio, but found it dead. His guns too had jammed, fuel flow had become erratic and the fuel quantity was low; incredibly, his compass also went berserk and the lost his bearing. If there was any hope of making it back, the Starfighters snuffed it. Under the circumstances, the airstrip that he saw was a godsend, no matter that the stepped off his Gnat as a vanquished airman.

YUSUF somehow managed to keep his badly damaged aircraft in control and, extricated out of the battle area along with his wingman. With marginal fuel as well as a dead radio, he made it to Sargodha; however, after landing he discovered that there was no hydraulic pressure for braking, and the Sabre ended up in the over-run arrester barrier without further damage. For having fought single-handedly against six Gnats and, also for recovering a badly damaged aircraft, Yusuf was awarded a Sitara-i-Jur’at. Keelor, who claimed having seen Yusuf’s aircraft go down, was promptly awarded a Vir Chakra for what was believed to be IAF’s first kill. The picture of the damaged Sabre released by the PAF told a different story, though.

Sikand was promptly apprehended by Pak Army troops and had to spend the next five months as POW. After his repatriation, the IAF somehow took a light view of the incident and, Sikand resumed his career; he eventually rose to the rank of an Air Marshal. His aircraft was flown to Sargodha by Sqn Ldr Saad Hatmi, who carried out several evaluation flights after the war. Hatmi, who had flown the Gnat extensively while on an exchange assignment with the RAF, did not find the IAF version any different. He also maintained that the Gnat was no ‘Sabre Slayer’ when it came to dog fighting. After its brief service with the new air arm, Gnat IE 1083 was consigned to the PAF Museum, where it continues to bemuse visitors with one of the bizarre episodes of the 1965 War.
 
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On the JH7 B thread it hzs recently been mentioned that the production has shut down. If you look at the Chinese acquisitions for PLAAN , these have mostly been j11 series. This gives you an idea of theutility of JH7B for PLAAN. Their priorities have shifted towards the J series. People need to understand that the PAF will not induct an aircraft which leaves its pilot susceptible to danger on account of lack of maneuverability of the plane specially at sea where loss could mean almost certain death of the occupants. We will be facing Mig 29s and the SU series and irrespective of its load it will remain susceptible to attacks by more maneouverable planes. The Indo Pak theatre is small and distances are small. So you only need atwin engined fighter for the survivability of its occupants in case of damage/malfunction. If you are susceptible on account of lack of maneoverability that is an added risk. Isuspect this is the main rwas9n that PAF inspite of the need and lack of choice has rejected the plane. When you deject a platform you will take into account the benefits and the weaknesses of the platform. Inherent weaknesses in design cannot be rectified just by external spit polish and adding some extra features. I gather even PLAAN does not have more than 240 platforms whereas the J series is rapidly increasing this has not been the case for HJ7 and even incremental increase in capabilities has not enticed PLAAN into buying more. It would be akin to PAF buying F14s which were the best planes of the time for maritime strike but now retired from nearly all the AFs. We need to step frorward not back. The SU series may well be the answer. Or we may wait for the J31, both of which would be a capability leap for the PAF. My 2 paisas worth.
A

AoA

Based on your arguments I would reshape my wish list as follows:-

5 Sqn of F-16s
5 Sqn of Su-35 / J-16 or some twin engine fighter
8 Sqn of JF-17

Regards
 
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AoA

Based on your arguments I would reshape my wish list as follows:-

5 Sqn of F-16s
5 Sqn of Su-35 / J-16 or some twin engine fighter
8 Sqn of JF-17

Regards
PLEASE. NO WISH LISTS!!!!!!!! Secondly an important lesson in life that you all will do well to learn is not to accept a narrative without research. The other party could be lying to you. Just because you have believed me means you have conceded to me your viewpoint which may have had merit in the first place. I wanted to say something I went on the net and read up on it. You took the easy way out and conceded an argument without a fight. WHY?
Mairay bhai, in life and also in deen you are taught to do your own research and draw your own conclusions. Yes certain aspects need guidance but only if you start researching and thinking will you realize that you dont know something. Then you either research more or ask somebody. You do not stop there but go back and confirm what you have been taught is the truth and not some lies fed by an idiot to you to save his own ego. You will come across people who once challanged will either become angry or respond in a convoluted way which is what is akin to a "philosophical approach". Both are signs of liers and idiots. Always respect the man who says I dont know. If you research you can always call their bluff respectfully. Even if you dont want to at least know in your heart what the truth is. Too much harm has come to this nation by believing liers and idiots. Lets stop that and rely on acquiring knowledge before speaking.
Hope you dont mind my naseeha. I mean nothing more than to teach you what I have learnt after getting kicked around a few times in my life. If you learn from this it may prevent you having the same painful blows that I have had.
A
 
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Doing sonic booms deep in enemy territory n shooting enemy jets in a war is much different than mere air violations during peacetime ..


For some reading ... I suggest you read this thread ;

STARFIGHTER in the PAF battle fleet

The star fighter wasn't the most manoeuvrable jet but it sure did make IAF pilots shyt their uniforms

Run…

It’s a 104

(Paj oye 104 aeee)

By Air Commodore

M Kaiser Tufail

The loss of four Vampires on the opening day of the ë65 war was a major blow to the morale of the IAF and, it was felt in all quarters that something had to be done urgently. A grudge fight was, therefore, planned and the nimble Gnat was chosen as the most suitable fighter. Its small size, good turning ability and fast acceleration were seen to be lethal attributes vis-a-via PAF’s main fighter, the Sabre. A detachment of eight Gnats from Ambala-based No 23 Squadron was flown to Pathankot and Sqn Ldr William Greene was deputed to lead it. Greene had done his Fighter Leaders’ Course from UK and was busy imparting his air combat skills to the Squadron pilots when the war broke out. The more senior Flight Commander, Sqn Ldr Brij Pal Singh Sikand held no grudge in ceding command of the detachment to Greene, in view of the latterís experience. Soon after landing at Pathankot on the evening of 2nd September, Greene was told plainly in an Operations brief that the patrolling Sabres had to be tackled at any cost. The plan consisted for four Mysteres luring the Sabres, while eight low flying Gnats popped up and pounced from two different directions. While the plan was bold, the large number of aircraft demanded a high order of formation integrity and radio discipline. Also, the operation had to be conducted swiftly since the Gnat’s limited fuel did not permit a prolonged turning fight. As the IAF had expected, the morning of 3rd
p5a.jpg
September saw PAF CAPs over Akhnur area. Pak Army’s 7 Division had put in a request for air cover while its reinforcing elements forded River Tawi during the offensive against Akhnur. At first light, two Sabres and a Starfighter stared a vigil which was continued an hour later by another similar trio. The Sabre pair included Flt Lt Yusuf Ali Khan and Flg Off Abdul Khaliq of No 11 Squadron. The singleton was flown by No 9 Squadron’s Flg Off Abbas Mirza, whose schoolboy looks belied his proficiency at handling the aerodynamic wonder that was the F-104 Starfighter.

After patrolling for a while, the Sabres were warned about four bogeys approaching Akhnur at high altitude. Outnumbered two to one, Yusuf decided to go for them anyway and asked for intercept instructions. Before he could pick contact with the reported bogeys up in the sky, his eyes caught a glimpse of four Gnats zooming from below. Yusuf immediately ordered jettisoning of drop tanks but one of his wingman’s tanks did not go. While groping with the switches to sort the problem, Abdul Khaliq lost sight of his leader and, in effect ended up being a liability. Yusuf, therefore, instructed him to head for home and impulsively decided to handle the complex situation all by himself. The four Mysters, having apparently lured the patrolling Sabres, turned north and exited the battle area, leaving the Gnats to strike from behind. Led by Greene, the front Gnat section consisted of Flg Off M R Murdeshwar as No 2, Sqn Ldr Sikand as No 3 and Flg Off V S Pathania as No 4. Following instructions of Sqn Ldr Dandapani, the seasoned controller at Arilritsar Radar, the Gnat Formation continued to look out for the Sabres but to no avail. Yusuf, in the meantime, dove down unnoticed from almost 30,000 ft and without much ado, was able to place his missile sighting reticle on one of the Gnats1. A loud growl indicating Sidewinder lock-on was just what Yusuf could have asked for, in this one-versus-many scenario. Ready 10 press the missile firing button, he was rattled by a series of thuds on his aircraft.

Confounded at what could have gone wrong at the vital moment, he looked back only to see a pair of Gnats behind him! The Gnats that were in front, meanwhile, broke to the left, obviously having been warned by the rear pair just in time. Flt Lt Trevor Keelor and Flt Lt S Krishnaswamy, who were trailing the front Gnat section, had been able to sandwich Yusuf’s Sabre while he was busy with his quarry. Keelor opened up with the Gnat’s 30mm cannon causing extensive damage to the Sabre. A large portion of the elevator had been blown off, but Yusuf continued dog fighting somewhat shakily. Hearing his plight on the radio, Abdul Khaliq made an attempt to rejoin the fight, as he had not gone much far.

Luckily, the Sabres were able to ‘pair up again and they continued to help each other fight their way out of the cloud of six Gnats2. Flt Lt Farooq Hadier, who had been controlling the fight from Sakesar Radar, apprehended the gravity of the situation and directed Mirza’s nearby Starfighter into the midst of ongoing combat. The fearsome, reputation of the Starfighter was not unfounded, it appeared, as the Gnats went helter skelter on sighting it. Abdul Khaliq, who at this time was being chased by Pathania, thus managed to get a lucky reprieve.

Pajh oye.. 104 eeee," Sikand shouted out to Pathania in inimitable Punjabi (the English translation, "Run.. It’s a 104" just cannot grasp the hint of made rush in the expression).

The ‘104’ did not stay in the fight for long as the idea was to charge in at supersonic speed and try a pot shot or, simply overwhelm the adversaries with sheer awe. Mirza did his act a couple of times before leaving the scene; it had a salutary effect as the dogfight broke off and the Gnats started egressing. Sikand, who had initiated the panic call broke off too, but in an opposite direction, thus losing contact with his wingman as well as the rest of the formation. At Sakesar Radar, Farooq was keeping abreast of the situation. Anticipating the need for reinforcement he had scrambled another Starfighter to the scene. Flown by Flt Lt Hakimullah, it arrived a bit late for the Gnats, which had turned away. One Gantat however, was seen to be behaving strangely; having gone back, it turned about and re-entered Pakistani airspace. Hakimullah, who was supersonic at this time, was directed towards the errant intruder. Though Hakimullah could not sight the tiny Gant at the speed he was flying, he learnt from Sakesar that his adversary had slowed down to what appeared like landing speed. Hakimullah set up orbit over the area, wondering if a forced landing was in progress. Shortly thereafter, to his utter surprise, he picked contact with a Gant taxing down the disused Pasrur airstrip near Sialkot. When Green and his formation members landed, they were in celebratory mood for what was believed to be Keelor’s kill. They were expecting Sikand, the gregarious fellow that the he was, to joint in any time for a heartily beer session. Little did they know that their Flight Commander was in Pakistani custody following a bizarre episode? During interrogation Sikand claimed that almost all his systems failed soon after he was separated from his formation. Once he had lost visual contact with everyone, he tired to communicate on the radio, but found it dead. His guns too had jammed, fuel flow had become erratic and the fuel quantity was low; incredibly, his compass also went berserk and the lost his bearing. If there was any hope of making it back, the Starfighters snuffed it. Under the circumstances, the airstrip that he saw was a godsend, no matter that the stepped off his Gnat as a vanquished airman.

YUSUF somehow managed to keep his badly damaged aircraft in control and, extricated out of the battle area along with his wingman. With marginal fuel as well as a dead radio, he made it to Sargodha; however, after landing he discovered that there was no hydraulic pressure for braking, and the Sabre ended up in the over-run arrester barrier without further damage. For having fought single-handedly against six Gnats and, also for recovering a badly damaged aircraft, Yusuf was awarded a Sitara-i-Jur’at. Keelor, who claimed having seen Yusuf’s aircraft go down, was promptly awarded a Vir Chakra for what was believed to be IAF’s first kill. The picture of the damaged Sabre released by the PAF told a different story, though.

Sikand was promptly apprehended by Pak Army troops and had to spend the next five months as POW. After his repatriation, the IAF somehow took a light view of the incident and, Sikand resumed his career; he eventually rose to the rank of an Air Marshal. His aircraft was flown to Sargodha by Sqn Ldr Saad Hatmi, who carried out several evaluation flights after the war. Hatmi, who had flown the Gnat extensively while on an exchange assignment with the RAF, did not find the IAF version any different. He also maintained that the Gnat was no ‘Sabre Slayer’ when it came to dog fighting. After its brief service with the new air arm, Gnat IE 1083 was consigned to the PAF Museum, where it continues to bemuse visitors with one of the bizarre episodes of the 1965 War.

brother, i have same point. I am not talking on the basis of g limits and turns of the aircraft but its purpose of induction and its use in the active war by PAF and brilliant chief Noor Khan sahab. Ayub Khan on the request of Air Force planners, specially used his links in US govt to bring these handful of 104s to Pakistan. These guys are just taking it for granted just like they humiliate older blocks of F-16s everytime because they are now obsolete according to them. F-86s were inducted in huge numbers because they had their own role and 104s were inducted for other reasons.

F-104 Starfighters in PAKISTAN AIR FORCE

Columnist Gp Capt. SM HALI gives a historical review of the famous STARFIGHTER in the PAF battle fleet.

Introduction

Pakistan, which remained an important ally of the United States throughout the cold war was the first non-NATO country to equip with the F-104 Starfighter. The F-104 As and Bs provided to the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) under the US Mutual Defence Assistance Programme entered service in 1961 and continued to fly until 1972 when dwindling spares support forced their early retirement. In all twelve F-104As and two F-104 Bs were transferred to Pakistan

At PAF’s request, all its F-104As were refitted with the M-61 Gatling 20 mm gun, whereas its counterparts in the USAF had been divested of their guns on the assumption that all post-Korea air combat would occur at high speeds where only the wing tip-mounted Sidewinder missiles would be effective. The PAF’s foresight was amply rewarded in actual combat and the USAF too reverted to having machine guns as mandatory equipment on all its fighters in due course. The newer GWE- J-79-11 engine was also installed on the aircraft. This made the Pakistan F-104s somewhat unique: they had the gun and being the lightest of F-104 series with a more advanced J-79 engine enjoyed the best thrust-to-weight ratio.

The only PAF unit to be equipped with the F-104 was No 9 Air Superiority Squadron. The squadron flies the F-16 today. The in-commission rate of the F-104 during the first five years of service was over 80 % and all its systems performed with high reliability. The fighter was employed in the air-to-air role by the PAF and was used extensively for aerial gunnery against both banner targets and the Dart targets with excellent scores. In strafing attacks the M-61 gun was superbly accurate.

The F-104 Starfighters remained in service with Pakistan Air Force for twelve years and flew 11,690 hours. During the 1965 Pakistan-India War, the F-104s flew a total of 246 hours and 45 minutes while during the 1971 War, the F-104s flew a total of 103 hours and forty-five minutes.

1965 Pakistan-India War

During the 1965 War, PAF was forced to rely on its small force of F-104A Starfighters as high altitude interceptors and in its night fighting role, using the radar of its AN/ASG-14T1 fire-control system, in conjunction with Sidewinder air-to-air missiles.

After 1 September, the F-104s were extremely active in Air Defence and Air Superiority Operations, but of the 246 missions flown by F-104s during hostilities, 42 were at night against the IAF Canberras. The rudimentary fire-control radar met the Soviet high altitude bomber threat of the Cold War era for which it was designed but it could not illuminate small targets against ground clutter. The standard high speed intercept tactic employed by PAF’s F-104 pilots was to approach their targets from below, with a typical height differential of 2-3,000 feet, against a target they wished to acquire at a range of 10-15 kilomenters. This limitation was well known to the Canberra jet bomber pilots of IAF who attacked targets in Pakistan during the 1965 war. They adopted a standard hi-lo-hi profile to minimize the threat of interception. During most of their inbound and outbound flight over Pakistani territory the IAF Canberras would stay below about 1000 feet during their approach and exit phases. This posed a difficult night intercept problem. The PAF’s F-104s had in these circumstances to be used in an unconventional low-altitude intercept profile that severely challenged the capabilities of its airborne radar. To pick up the low flying bombers on their scope the F-104 pilots had to get down to about 300-500 feet above the ground to point their radars upward and clear of ground clutter at the enemy bombers. The problem was aggravated by the Canberra’s tail warning audio alarm that would go off the moment an F-104 got to a near astern position, and enable the bomber to take timely evasive action to shake off its pursuer.

The F-104s were highly dreaded by the Indian Air Force (IAF). On 3rd September, 1965, even before the War began, an Indian Gnat surrendered to an F-104 which forced it to land at the abandoned airfield of Pasrur (in Pakistan). Its pilot Squadron Leader Brijpal Singh Sikand became a POW.

On 6 September, two Starfighters were sent on dawn patrol from Sargodha. They were vectored by Sakesar Radar towards 4 IAF Mysteres engaged in bomb and rocket attacks against a stationary passenger train at Gakkhar railway station. One of the F-104 pilots was forced to return to base with a radio failure but the other pilot, Flight Lieutenant Aftab Alam Khan dived his F-104 with full after burners, going supersonically through the Mysteres formation which promptly scattered. The Indian aircraft tried to escape at about 50 feet above the ground but they were no match for the Starfighter. Aftab destroyed one Mysteres with his Sidewinder missile thus achieving one of the world’s first air victories by a mach 2 combat aircraft.

The other F-104 pilot, Flight Lieutenant Amjad Khan, who had missed his chance the previous day, made amends on 7 September. He was scrambled in an F-104 at about 05:15 hours and directed by Sakesar radar towards an incoming raid at Sargodha. He made visual contact with the IAF Mysteres and headed towards them. By the time he caught up with them, the Indian aircraft were 6-8 miles away from Sargodha, flying at 150-200 feet on a south-easterly heading towards India. As the Mysteres jettisoned their drop tanks, Flight Lieutenant Amjad Hussain positioned himself behind one of them and released a GAR-8 missile, which went straight into the ground. The Mystere then began to dogfight with the Starfighter, which used its superior climb and acceleration to lift the combat from ground level to about 7,000 feet to gain room for manoeuvre. Hussain fired his cannons and was delighted to see the shell hit the Mystere. The Mystere pilot showed commendable courage in staying with the F-104, and despite being mortally wounded, scored several cannon strikes on the Starfighter. Flight Lieutenant Amjad Hussain managed to eject safely and reached his Base. This was the first and only Starfighter to be lost through enemy action in the 1965 war. The Indian pilot Squadron Leader A.B. Devayya was posthumously awarded the Maha Vir Chakra in 1988, twenty three years after the war, when Indian authorities learnt of the IAF pilot’s valour through an account of the encounter published in John Fricker’s book Battle for Pakistan, published in 1978.

On 21 September, Squadron Leader Jamal A Khan, intercepted an Indian Air Force Canberra at about 33,000 feet and shot it down with a Sidewinder near Fazilka, inside Pakistani territory. The bomber’s pilot, Flight Lieutenant Manmohan Lowe ejected and was made POW while its navigator, Flying Officer A K Kapor could not bail out and was killed in action. The British made Canberra, unlike its American counterpart the Martin B-57, had no ejection seat for the navigator. This was the first kill achieved by an F-104 at night after a number of near misses due to factors described earlier.

F-104s were also used during 1965 for low level, daylight reconnaissance missions over the IAF air bases. The speed of the Starfighter gave the Indians no time to react. The F-104s were also employed as escorts for the slow Lockheed RT-33 reconnaissance fighters on photographic missions deep into Indian territory, the presence of Starfighters virtually guaranteeing that no air opposition would be encountered. Six F-104 pilots received gallantry awards during the 1965 War.

1971 Pakistan-India War

Air operations in 1971 Pakistan-India War commenced with a preemptive strike by PAF. In the 1971 War the F-104 was also used for deep penetration strikes against enemy airfields and radars. Two F-104s each attacked Amritsar and Faridkot Indian Air Force Radars. The attack on Faridkot Radar was led by Wing Commander Arif Iqbal, who not only damaged the Radar but also shot down an IAF Krishak aircraft.

On 4 December, Squadron Leaders Amanullah and Rashid Bhatti attacked Amritsar Radar. They met with stiff resistance but managed to shoot down two aircraft, an Indian Gnat and an Su-7. The pilot of the Gnat, Flight Lieutenant J Preira was Killed in Action. On 08 December, Flight Lieutenant Manzoor Bokhari intercepted an IAF Canberra and shot it down. On 10 December, Wing Commander Arif Iqbal, while attacking the Indian Harbour of Okha, shot down an Alize aircraft of Indian Navy. Its crew members, Lieutenant Commander Ashok Roy, Lieutenant H S Sirohi and AC O Vijayan were killed in action. PAF lost two F-104s along with their pilots, Wing Commander Mervyn Leslie Middlecoat and Flight Lieutenant Samad Changezi both were awarded gallantry awards of Sitara-e-Jurat (roughly equivalent to the British Distinguished Flying Cross). Flight Lieutenant Bharat B Soni, a MiG-21 pilot was credited with having shot down Wing Commander Middlecoat while Flight Lieutenant Arun K Dutta, another MiG-21 pilot was awarded the claim of having shot down Flight Lieutenant Samad Changezi.

The US Government imposed an embargo on arms sales to both India and Pakistan as soon as the 1965 war began. No consideration was given to the fact that India, a long-time ally of the Soviet Union, hardly used any American military equipment and the sanctions exclusively degraded the combat potential of only the Pakistani Armed Forces. The PAF fleet of F-104s was particularly hard hit by the arms embargoes. Eventually it became impossible to maintain a reasonable in-commission rate on the F-104s and the PAF decided to phase it out of service in late 1972. This ended the era of Pakistan Air Force’s first mach-2 combat aircraft.
F-104 Starfighters in PAKISTAN AIR FORCE

The thread is about PAFs quest for a new modern fighter and i know the F-104 debate is quite off-topic but this account of S M Hali sahab is another proof.
 
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PAF upgraded force elements shall be maintained till 2025. Additionally, PAF shall require a deep strike / interdiction aircraft upon retirement of ROSE mirages. The most suitable candidate is a Eurofighter. Both affordability and releasability are in question, but geopolitical matters are like shifting sands.
Interesting thought. Why do you think it is ideal for PAF. Do you not think it is equally sanctionable and would PAF want to sink its teeth into 2 sanctionable platforms. What are your thoughts about the SU series ansd why not the SU 35 as against EFT. Response would be appreciated.
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Long Range & twin engine fighters are best choice for maritime roles. Pakistan Airforce can induct 2-3 squadrons for Extended Exclusive Economic Zone, SirCreek and even the threats beyond strait of Hormuz. Moreover, 2 Indian aircraft carriers need to be respected as a potent threat. Our frigates needs some aerial cover against Mig 29 & Harriers. In my personal opinion, airforce's conventional role can be fulfilled by single engine but high tech aircrafts. JF-17 Block III is still a hidden package for world. 50-100 Block III will be enough against whole adversary. Our pilots are topguns among topguns. A squadron of F-104 proved this already :-)


A jet purchased from borrowed money is as lethal as a jet purchased by net payment.


brother, remember that half of the F-16s fleet will also be retired and phased out. We have to purchase 100 more new jets even if we induct 1 JF-17 for 2 Mirages or F-7s. Space for 100 jets still available for foreign purchases.


A-5s are already replaced if i am not wrong. Number 16 and Number 26 squadrons inducted JF-17s and are operation completely in their war in FATA and in exercises of Azm e Nau/High Marks etc.


Pakistani defense planners always purchases according to requirements. Nothing more or less with no corruption and kickbacks. Superior skills and tactics of our topguns works as force multipliers. They can turn any modern 4th Gen Aircraft into a lethal machine.


We can simply use Submarine Launched Babur Cruise Missile instead developing a completely new missile for just attacking a city. Why we need to attack a city with lot of civilians? Pakistan's targets are purely strategic when we talk about long ranged missiles. SLCMs or ALCMs can easily hit the vital organs of adversary. Pakistani defense planners already prepared and practiced multiple solutions of these things which are you discussing now. Cruise Missiles, Ballistic Missiles, Standoff weapons, PAF strike aircrafts have capability to hit the target of their own choice. Kindly trust the capability of your forces.


F-16 is and will be a precious part of our airforce. It is a potent aircraft with capability to hunt down any aircraft. Many members are disrespecting this excellent fighting machine. JF-17 Block III will be technologically advance than F-16 Block 52 but Fighting Falcon is a beauty! It needs respect.
I am 100% sure that PAF will be acquiring about 45 Jordanian F-16s Block-15s and even from Venezuela and USAF too
 
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Your position is based on the assumption of Russian involvement in CPEC. To be honest, Russia needs a lot of FDI itself. I dont see it investing more in industries other than Oil and gas. And CPEC will take atleast a decade to materialize. And Russia if it does invest, will take atleast 5-7 years for its investment to become bigger. By that time J11 will have become obsolete. But currently if you think, China will sell J11, based on future assumption of Russian involvement in CPEC, its bound to fail, as Russia has more than 70B$ worth of projects with us. J11 and Su27, and Su30 shares nearly the same airframe, and hence will be India's reservation.

However if Russia sells Su35, all the scenario u had mentioned is possible. But lets see.

Countries have already started to invest in Pakistan with the CPEC, while your right -- It'll take some time before CPEC has its desired effects ... however, governments (outside of our corrupt ones from the third world) usually have a futuristic approach ... so If a government sees an opportunity that has a very high probability of return...most countries go out and start to map out and make the playing field a little favorable .... Recently you have had the UK making little investments in the CPEC ... the Iranians showing their willingness to participate ... However when it comes to the Russians, they've reacted in a way that was not foreseen ... not as quickly atleast ...

The recent talks of more then 2 billion dollar worth of a LNG gas pipeline ... the fact that Russia and China have a staggering 270 Billion dollar deal .. etc etc... Then you have the MI-35 deal ... etc. so what that says is that, Russia is more then 'Just showing interest' ...

On the other hand, Russia is loosing its biggest arms importer ... now we all know that even today, India is the biggest importer of Russian arms -- however India has also shown its intent to diversify its suppliers ... that means the chunk that Russia once entirely had for itself is splitting in to pieces ... That doesn't mean Russia will abandon India and so on ... that just means that Russia is now open to more oppurtunities ... having to walk carefully while negotiating pressure from the Indians ... and doing whats in its best interest ... The episode of negotiating Indian pressure for not supplying the RD-93 and the fact that Khawaja Asif announced that Pakistan was now negotiating to directly receive the RD-93 in the last year or two ... is another example ... and the fact that Pakistan may even go for an upgraded RD-93 for the blk-III for JFT, or the consideration of an AESA from Russia are just some other indicators supporting the assertion that I made...

So my belief that a middle ground deal in shape of SU-35 export to China and then re-export to Pakistan, or a middle ground deal for J-11 series is not based off one point ... it is based off the recent Russian interest, the fact that India is diversifying its suppliers, and Russians likewise are now playing their cards as they see fit ...

Concluding, Not to say that India won't have any sway, but it won't be like in the past, the changing situation as I've explained in my point of view, leaves room for alot of "middle ground deals" as I've put it ... Lastly, IAF having the SU-30's won't really effect it because the IPR's are of the Russians not the Indians ... and India is dependent on Russia for supplies and to modernize its SU-30 MKI fleet to Super Sukhoi standard not the other way around ... So yeah, I stand by what I said and I agree, only time will tell ...
 
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PLEASE. NO WISH LISTS!!!!!!!! Secondly an important lesson in life that you all will do well to learn is not to accept a narrative without research. The other party could be lying to you. Just because you have believed me means you have conceded to me your viewpoint which may have had merit in the first place. I wanted to say something I went on the net and read up on it. You took the easy way out and conceded an argument without a fight. WHY?
Mairay bhai, in life and also in deen you are taught to do your own research and draw your own conclusions. Yes certain aspects need guidance but only if you start researching and thinking will you realize that you dont know something. Then you either research more or ask somebody. You do not stop there but go back and confirm what you have been taught is the truth and not some lies fed by an idiot to you to save his own ego. You will come across people who once challanged will either become angry or respond in a convoluted way which is what is akin to a "philosophical approach". Both are signs of liers and idiots. Always respect the man who says I dont know. If you research you can always call their bluff respectfully. Even if you dont want to at least know in your heart what the truth is. Too much harm has come to this nation by believing liers and idiots. Lets stop that and rely on acquiring knowledge before speaking.
Hope you dont mind my naseeha. I mean nothing more than to teach you what I have learnt after getting kicked around a few times in my life. If you learn from this it may prevent you having the same painful blows that I have had.
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Thanks for the Naseeha, really appreciate it.

So this was a test ???

Production of JH-7B has not stopped ?

What about the portion where you mentioned the lack of maneuverability as a draw back. Felt pretty convincing.

You are a PDF think tank consultant so your views matter. I think there is convergence that PAF should have a dual engine long range heavy weight aircraft. In your opinion should some of them be pure bombers?

BTW have reshaped my list - not finalized it.

Regards
 
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