Modi visits England, Hawk trainers and EJ 200 Engines in wishlist

[Abingdonboy]

You are confusing with BAE (Parent company) with BAE Systems (BAE's US subsidiary)
USA government have final say in it as it have 70 % of US origin parts.

The IPR is with BAE (the parent company), as a subsidiary the US arm is not an independent entity. The USG will have a say as they will do when any military equipment with part of US origin are sold but the fact that the M777 is being discussed whilst on the trip to the UK means the GoI is looking to have a M777 production line in India which would require talks with the BAE senior officials in the UK, this isn't the same off the shelf purchase for 145 guns that was purely handled by the USG.

When the M777 was showcased by BAE in Def Expo, it was members of UK army(who don't even operate the gun themselves) who were on hand not the US army.

@Abingdonboy

Sir any reason why you are so sure if L&T grabbing the deal?

It is the lightest MGS on offer (able to be transported even by C-130s), L&T have presented a far more indigenised product (Indian truck, many Indian subcomponents etc) and it is also significantly cheaper than the Archer. The CEASAR is probably the best option all things considered of the IA. The only area the Archer is ahead is in automation (requires 2 operators to the CEASAR's 4-5) but this isn't an issue for the IA who doesn't face the same constraints on manpower.

 

[sathya]

EF 200 had less power and needed more modification than GE 414 for tejas, especially the fat tejas

Plus there were tools issues with hawk at that moment, remember India had to cannibalise hawk kits to keep it flying.

AMCA being twin engine, we won't have power issues hopefully
Design of AMCA will dictate the engine needed for the project.

AMCA design already going through wind tunnel tests in USA .

 

[Manindra]

The IPR is with BAE (the parent company), as a subsidiary the US arm is not an independent entity.

If you have slightly knowledge of corporate laws then you know that they are Independent entity.

The USG will have a say as they will do when any military equipment with part of US origin are sold but the fact that the M777 is being discussed whilst on the trip to the UK means the GoI is looking to have a M777 production line in India which would require talks with the BAE senior officials in the UK, this isn't the same off the shelf purchase for 145 guns that was purely handled by the USG.

When the M777 was showcased by BAE in Def Expo, it was members of UK army(who don't even operate the gun themselves) who were on hand not the US army.

As I previously said that it have 70% US origin parts , produced in US, patented in US, so obviously US have final say.

GoI is not fool that they choose FMS (G to G) route with USA nor BAE neither UK .

As for ToT , Gun Barrel technology is denied, then its stupidity to assemble it in India , which cost more than imported one.
I think you perfectly know that we are self sufficient in FCS, APU, Optical Sights etc.

 

[Echo_419]

False mate. BAE is a MNC registered in the UK who owns the IPRs to the M777. Originally the 145 gun deal was being conducted with the US government through a FMS deal but the fact that Modi is going to be discussing the M777 when in the UK means this is not about an off the shelf purchase anymore (that would come through FMS with the USG), this is about localised production in India (given the production line for the M777 is shut anyway this shouldn't be an issue) and a lot more than 145 guns.


Hawk trainer and M777 will move forward almost certainly but the L&T-Nexter JV offering the CEASER MGS is going to win, not the Archer and GE are the favourites to provide the power plant for the AMCA.


Of course they do control the M777, the EJ200 not so much but I don't find that news credible anyway. GE are all but certain to get the AMCA deal.

Is it a good idea to go with the US on AMCA program ?

The IPR is with BAE (the parent company), as a subsidiary the US arm is not an independent entity. The USG will have a say as they will do when any military equipment with part of US origin are sold but the fact that the M777 is being discussed whilst on the trip to the UK means the GoI is looking to have a M777 production line in India which would require talks with the BAE senior officials in the UK, this isn't the same off the shelf purchase for 145 guns that was purely handled by the USG.

When the M777 was showcased by BAE in Def Expo, it was members of UK army(who don't even operate the gun themselves) who were on hand not the US army.

It is the lightest MGS on offer (able to be transported even by C-130s), L&T have presented a far more indigenised product (Indian truck, many Indian subcomponents etc) and it is also significantly cheaper than the Archer. The CEASAR is probably the best option all things considered of the IA. The only area the Archer is ahead is in automation (requires 2 operators to the CEASAR's 4-5) but this isn't an issue for the IA who doesn't face the same constraints on manpower.

Offtopic Q
But can you tell me,from where can I get army's Capex:Opex ratio?

 

[Manindra]

Offtopic Q
But can you tell me,from where can I get army's Capex:Opex ratio?

Budget
Budget allocated to MOD later divided between Tri-services, DRDO, Coast Guard & other para military forces under MOD.
Where each armed forces breakup detailed allotment are given.

 

[Echo_419]

Budget
Budget allocated to MOD later divided between Tri-services, DRDO, Coast Guard & other para military forces under MOD.
Where each armed forces breakup detailed allotment are given.

Great,can you calculate it for me?

 

[sathya]

UK, Indian companies to sign deals worth £9 billion: Cameron - The Times of India

Damn with 10 of billion $ promises of deal .

@Abingdonboy

 

[Manindra]

Great,can you calculate it for me

Suppose Army got 100 Rs. as their Budget for FY 2015-16
They have to spend Rs. 90 on salary, pension, equipment maintenance, fuel etc.
Rest Rs. 10 they spend on buying new equipment like guns , artillery, tanks etc.
Here Rs. 90 called opex & Rs. 10 being called Capex.

 

[Echo_419]

Suppose Army got 100 Rs. as their Budget for FY 2015-16
They have to spend Rs. 90 on salary, pension, equipment maintenance, fuel etc.
Rest Rs. 10 they spend on buying new equipment like guns , artillery, tanks etc.
Here Rs. 90 called opex & Rs. 10 being called Capex.

Err I was asking for the real figure,but bevermind.Thanks for helping though

 

[Manindra]

Err I was asking for the real figure,but bevermind.Thanks for helping though

Well, due to rainy season in Tamil Nadu my BSNL 3G speed is going up & Down, @Abingdonboy quoted actual figures several time in the forum.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Err I was asking for the real figure,but bevermind.Thanks for helping though

I'll try and dig out the concrete figures tomorrow mate, I can't seem to recall them off the top of my head. Just as a temporary measure I can say that the ratio (OPEX:CAPEX) for the IA was around 80/90:20/10- something absurd like that which equated to a pathetically small annual CAPEX budget around $1-2BN. The CAPEX budget will be used to pay make any outstanding payments (say a large deal being paid off in instalments) so the amount the IA has to spend each year is even less than that.

To add insult onto injury, for the past few years the IA has had to take funds out of their CAPEX budget to meet their (ever growing) OPEX towards the end of financial years so the real figure the IA has to spend on new equipment is simply embarrassing.

I've said it before and been shouted down but the IA needs to be severely reduced in manpower- by as much as 30% I would say (not any RR unit, SF, aviation, artillery or Mech units) but a few infantry battalions can be got rid of which will thus require fewer cooks, drivers, mechanics, signals officers etc etc. It is simply stupid to continue on down this road and now the IA is actually expanding further (MSC) the annual CAPEX of the IA is barely remaining constant with inflation!

Where are these IA generals expecting the funds to come from to service their elaborate fantasies of a modern army? India will need to be spending >$200BN a year on defence for the IA to actually have a respectable CAPEX budget and that won't be the case for another 12 or so years (if defence spending remains at current levels as a proportion of GDP).


The situation will remain stagnant for the foreseeable future unless a major course correction is taken (either give the IA a LOT more money or cut them down to size) and I don't see that happening- I don't think the MoD/GoI have enough of a handle on common sense to articulate to the public why a smaller army would actually increase its lethality and I don't see them eager to increase defence spending either.


So down this merry road we go......

 

[sathya]

It's all civilian deal so far..

 

[My-Analogous]

We do have the worlds second largest aerospace iindustry bro, ahead of our French rivals.


Why aerospace and defence are Britain's engines of growth | Business | The Guardian
Reasons to be cheerful about the UK aerospace sector | In-depth | The Engineer
United Kingdom

Yes you guys have, but it is pity that you guys fail to give any other fighter after this beast.

Harrier II
Its long due mate to have Made in UK brand