MoD mulls downsizing Rafale contract

[rockstarIN]

What about su.35?

Or fly away condition pak fa if it's cost is same as rafale

 

[Donatello]

as per the other sources GoI mulls to increase defence budget... have to wait for official statement. .. but .sure IAF wants 126+ not 126- ...

Defense budgets, unless otherwise explicitly stated, do not take into account the capital expenditures like acquisition of Assets. It's the same the world over. Defense budgets accounts for the running of such assets, manpower etc. This type of cost is one time cost, and would be paid in installments as the jets (if that is) arrive. That is to make sure that the seller is providing the quality as promised in the contract. So let's say India might pay for the first batch of 18 upfront and then as more jets roll in, they will make the payments. It's not a one time USD 20 billion payout.

What about su.35?

Or fly away condition pak fa if it's cost is same as rafale

PAK-FA? Like seriously? That plane is not even fully ready.

 

[Gessler]

if mki were good enough why india ordered rafale instead ? why not more mkis in the first place

Different roles. Why you buy second-hand F-16s from Jordan while having JF-17 production running?

indian arms procurement is all over the place , the seller just see india as some kind of cow with cash aka cash cow

Better than being seen as a poor beggar which you have to lend money before they can buy something from you. You
know even China sees you as a market that can be exploited right, left & center and then left to die. US sucked you dry till
now, and its China's turn now. They're already making you totally dependent on them, from now on they shape your policies,
they rule you, they steal from you, and you will still be crying foul over India's arms procurement.

Atleast we buy our weapons with our own money.

What is all over the place is your jealously and obsession. Whenever India does something, Pakistanis get all
worked up!

 

[Hulk]

I am not buying it- anyone who follows this deal will know the amount of sheer BS and contradicting reports that come out and are often attributed to UNAMED sources- deal will be signed in 3 months, deal will be signed in 6 months, deal is in trouble with EFT and Gripen back in the hunt, deal is to be signed when French foreign Minister visits, deal will only be discussed during French foreign minister's visit. A mixture of ignorant and paid reporting.


Regarding this bit of news I am not convinced- from the more credible reports it was stated the price of the deal was $16BN spread over 10 years and that the Defence/Finance Minister Jaitley had been pleased with this outlay.

I heard the same and it is told deal will be sealed anytime.

 

[danger007]

Defense budgets, unless otherwise explicitly stated, do not take into account the capital expenditures like acquisition of Assets. It's the same the world over. Defense budgets accounts for the running of such assets, manpower etc. This type of cost is one time cost, and would be paid in installments as the jets (if that is) arrive. That is to make sure that the seller is providing the quality as promised in the contract. So let's say India might pay for the first batch of 18 upfront and then as more jets roll in, they will make the payments. It's not a one time USD 20 billion payout.



PAK-FA? Like seriously? That plane is not even fully ready.

rafale deal is high prioritised deal... as there is no alternative. .. There is no way to cut the order... exactly I'm trying to say.. There is not even single statement frm officials , let us wait few more days till the defence budget...

and I was talking about budget for deals...

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

India should focus more on domestic platforms like the ACMA and LCA.

Rafale is a fantastic plane, but it was meant to plug gaps in the Indian air force back in 2001 when the MMRCA competition was started.

But it's going to be 2018 before the orders even start arriving in India. That's a huge gap, and by then 5th generation tech like the PAK-FA will be coming out.

 

[Gessler]

India should focus more on domestic platforms like the ACMA and LCA.

Rafale is a fantastic plane, but it was meant to plug gaps in the Indian air force back in 2001 when the MMRCA competition was started.

But it's going to be 2018 before the orders even start arriving in India. That's a huge gap, and by then 5th generation tech like the PAK-FA will be coming out.

Rafale was not part of the first MRCA tender, back then planes like Mirage-2000, MiG-29OVT/M2, Gripen-C, were competing.

Based on changing operational scenarios, that 2004 tender was called off and a fresh one with new bidders was set up
in 2007 (I honestly forgot exactly when), it was this new tender, called MMRCA, that Rafale, Typhoon, MiG-35 etc. were part of.

Rafale was selected from among the two shortlisted entities in 2011, and negotiations have been going on & on since then.

 

[rockstarIN]

Defense budgets, unless otherwise explicitly stated, do not take into account the capital expenditures like acquisition of Assets. It's the same the world over. Defense budgets accounts for the running of such assets, manpower etc. This type of cost is one time cost, and would be paid in installments as the jets (if that is) arrive. That is to make sure that the seller is providing the quality as promised in the contract. So let's say India might pay for the first batch of 18 upfront and then as more jets roll in, they will make the payments. It's not a one time USD 20 billion payout.



PAK-FA? Like seriously? That plane is not even fully ready.

As per reports russia will start the series production in 2016

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Is that an excuse for losing the war in all 3 theaters - on ground, air & sea?.

Typical comment from loser side which also happened to be 2, 3 actually 4 times bigger opponent. The physiological effects is having its toll on generations in India inform of retardation.

LOL Huntur & Gnat were subsonic aircraft that were primarily tasked for ground-attack missions in both 1965 and
1971 wars, as were Maruts. While F-86 was a transonic air superiority platform even at that day. It's mostly a story of
apples & oranges.

How about you do what you are good at doing. Selling oranges and apples in streets of Mumbai because what ever you have learned just toss it in trash and LEARN correct information from beginning.

How about if I tell you that Hunter, Gnat, MystereIV and Ouragan were all capable of reaching supersonic speed? you probably fell out of your chair right? In fact they were faster and achieved supersonic speed more effectively then F-86. (just google aircraft name with supersonic).
Non of these aircraft's true nature were limited to ground attack in fact it was IAF that established dedicated squadrons with modified equipment for ground attack roles. Gnats had superior handling in air and Hunters out performed F-86 in every aspect.

Mystere IV was bought in 1954 and most of them were phased out by the time '71 war happened, Only small
numbers remained and the fleet was completely out of service by 1973. And oh, Mystere IV was a first-generation
plane just like F-86, which idiot told you they are 2nd generation?

Just because MystereIV were phased out way before F-86 from PAF does not mean Sabers were superior. British airforce replaced its Saber fleet with Hunters in late 1950s.

Baharat Raksack
A diamond formation of Mystere IVa fighter-bombers over Delhi. The Mystere was the first second-generation aircraft acquired by the IAF in the 1950s.

Early MiG-21s (which is what IAF got then) were considered 2nd generation, it were models that came much
later (like BIS version) which could be termed 3rd gen. You have the least possible information about any historic
aircraft or war, it is funny to see such people, especially from the losing side of the war, commenting about
history they know nothing about.

Fine I will admit early Mig-21 were 2nd generation but does it still change the fact that your claim for IAF's air superiority over PAF has been debunked? still over dosed with your delusional lados? and does it also change the fact that Mig-21 were destroyed by PAF which NEVER saw any action in 65?

BTW, in all your fanboyish urges to prove Pak won the war while everyone knows it didn't, you have
comfortably forgotten about your own "ace plane" of the time - PAF's F-104 Starfighter.
And these PAF planes were equipped with well-proven AIM-9 Sidewinders while the only AAM in IAF service
at the time was the pitiful K-13, a poor copy of AIM-9 which was so useless that it was largely sidelined after the war.

I dont know who to blame for your utter BS your hands or your brain?
F-104 was never a dog fighter in fact its main role was high altitude interceptor. For god sake PAF only operated a dozen (12) F-104!
The accuracy of Aim-9B which PAF operated during 65 and 71 was less then 16%! Meaning for every 7 Aim-9B fired would result a kill and that only under a perfect scenario. It had tendency of locking by itself on clouds and sun and miss target. Not only that it had ZERO performance in low altitude where most of PAF IAF dogfights took place.

http://www.e-haf.org/PublicFTP/BIBLIO8HKH/_321/OG-AIM-9.pdf

One of the earliest versions was the AIM-9B, that, having no serious competitor
in its time, was adopted by the U.S. Air Force and became a standard weapon of
NATO. However, this version had a lot of limitations, such as the range limit of 2.6 NM, speed of M 1.7 and an uncooled seeker, that was very often locking on to the sun or clouds.
If we take a look on the USAF s use of the winder that time, we see that the
AIM-9B, which was originaly designed for bomber-interception missions, showed
as not very convenient for close-range engagments of North Vietnamese agile MiG-17s. During 1965-1968 there were 175 missiles fired by F-4C/D fighters,
from which only 28 destroyed their target

Ofcourse, although the more apt way to put it would be : MiG-21s thrashed your best plane at the time.

MiG-21 versus F-104 Starfighter | Wing Commander CIC

Kid, go learn some history.

Everytime your best plane (F-104) met our best (MiG-21), Fishbed owned Starfighter's ***. And that, despite the
US plane having superior, more proven & matured armament.



In what role? And with what armament & operating costs in mind?



Like claiming Mystere IV as a second-generation fighter?



Whole 1971 war came because Pak military was brain farting in a similar way as you are doing now.

--

On topic, a French industry insider & journalist has clarified that the news of Rafale contract downsizing is BS.

The contract numbers stay the same - 126 aircraft. It might even go up to 189 or something after a while, but
no downsizing is there.[/quote]

Then bring your cat here because you are just making moot points.



Is that an excuse for losing the war in all 3 theaters - on ground, air & sea?



LOL Huntur & Gnat were subsonic aircraft that were primarily tasked for ground-attack missions in both 1965 and
1971 wars, as were Maruts. While F-86 was a transonic air superiority platform even at that day. It's mostly a story of
apples & oranges.



Mystere IV was bought in 1954 and most of them were phased out by the time '71 war happened, Only small
numbers remained and the fleet was completely out of service by 1973. And oh, Mystere IV was a first-generation
jet just like F-86, which idiot told you they are 2nd generation?

First-generation jet fighter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Early MiG-21s (which is what IAF got then) were considered 2nd generation, it were models that came much
later (like BIS version) which could be termed 3rd gen. You have the least possible information about any historic
aircraft or war, it is funny to see such people, especially from the losing side of the war, commenting about
history they know nothing about.

BTW, in all your fanboyish urges to prove Pak won the war while everyone knows it didn't, you have
comfortably forgotten about your own "ace plane" of the time - PAF's F-104 Starfighter.
And these PAF planes were equipped with well-proven AIM-9 Sidewinders while the only AAM in IAF service
at the time was the pitiful K-13, a poor copy of AIM-9 which was so useless that it was largely sidelined after the war.

Ofcourse, although the more apt way to put it would be : MiG-21s thrashed your best plane at the time.

MiG-21 versus F-104 Starfighter | Wing Commander CIC

Seriously you are resorting to someone's comments on forums to support your absurd claims/? Like I said, F-104 was never a dog fighter due to its small wings and poor turn radius. F-104s were primaly used for Rec and physiological warfare. Interception role came as secondary due to limited number of aircrafts.

Kid, go learn some history.

Do us a favor. stand infront of a mirror and say it lound to yourself.

Everytime your best plane (F-104) met our best (MiG-21), Fishbed owned Starfighter's ***. And that, despite the
US plane having superior, more proven & matured armament.

what a great achievement IAF accomplished against a squadron star fighters with 150 Mig-21 or 8 squadron. At the end of the day more IAF Mig-21 were lost in ground attacks and air combats then F-104.


[QUOTE0]Like claiming Mystere IV as a second-generation jet fighter?

go bark at Bharatraksack not me who identify Mystere IV as second gen fighter.

Whole 1971 war came because Pak military was brain farting in a similar way as you are doing now.

Your claim about IAF having air superiority over PAF in 65 and 71 is nothing less of a brain fart. You have yet to prove your claim with substantial evidence.

 

[Donatello]

As per reports russia will start the series production in 2016

With just upgraded Sukhoi engines? Not really fifth gen is it, then?

 

[spectribution]

With just upgraded Sukhoi engines? Not really fifth gen is it, then?

Better than J 20 with crap AL 31 FN engines and F 35. This baby will come second to only F 22 and maybe F 35 in the long run. BTW how is your JF 17 Mard - e -Momin going to fight this bastard?

FGFA (Khali) vs JF 17 (Oneil)

 

[Hemlock Khalid]

the

That would be unwise. Then each Rafale would be more costly, and the fixed costs of training, logistics, maintainance depots etc would not decrease anyway. In short, less value for money.

What they ought to do is to decrease the amount of ToT. Paying insane amounts for ToT does not really help us develop our capabilities - only doing our own research will. I don't even mind if we get rid of ToT altogether, and simply assemble or licence manufacture them at HAL.

that actually makes a lot of sense... but will the MoD consider it?

 

[amitkriit]

When are you gonna buy some toilets with your own money....It's treachery going to space but having no commodes on the ground !View attachment 37526

When are you gonna stop your kids from blowing themselves off? It is treachery claiming to be civilized but having a life expectancy that is lower than the life expectancy of cave-men.

 

[Gessler]

Typical comment from loser side which also happened to be 2, 3 actually 4 times bigger opponent. The physiological effects is having its toll on generations in India inform of retardation.

What left psychological effect was IN setting Karachi on fire, in tactical terms. In geographic terms, it was Pakistan losing
a half of it's land that left a defining mark, if not us taking 90,000+ of your troops as prisoners.

How about if I tell you that Hunter, Gnat, MystereIV and Ouragan were all capable of reaching supersonic speed? you probably fell out of your chair right? In fact they were faster and achieved supersonic speed more effectively then F-86. (just google aircraft name with supersonic).

Sure, but their intended flight regime (where they gave their best performance) was subsonic, for F-86, it was in
transonic regimes. Hunter is also at it's most agile while subsonic, while Sabre gets it's best features like climb rate and
dash speed while in transonic regimes. This bit is freely available even on the official websites of these aircraft makers.
Know what your problem is? You always think you know everything and the other guy knows nothing.

Non of these aircraft's true nature were limited to ground attack in fact it was IAF that established dedicated squadrons with modified equipment for ground attack roles. Gnats had superior handling in air and Hunters out performed F-86 in every aspect.

Maybe in a generalized way of looking at it. If you want to analyse history, learn to be more specific. IAF Hunters were
basically used for ground-attack missions, deep into enemy territory straight from the beginning to the closing stages
of the war, escorted by other fighters like Gnats. Yes, Gnats did give good performance against Sabres & other PAF aircraft even with the
apparent disadvantage in terms of missile armament.

Just because MystereIV were phased out way before F-86 from PAF does not mean Sabers were superior. British airforce replaced its Saber fleet with Hunters in late 1950s.

As Hunters were indigenous, they may have proven to be cheaper to operate for them in the long run. Britain
had its own force structure quite unlike PAF or IAF. They had been building other, better aircraft to take up
the interceptor/air superiority role - like the English Electric Lightning.

--

Mystere-IV was indeed a second-generation aircraft, not a second-generation jet aircraft. First-generation aircraft
means the propeller-driven planes of WW1/2. Thing is, both F-86 and Mystere-IV belong to the same generation, the second
generation of aircraft, the first generation of jet aircraft, contrary to what some misinformed/delusional uncle of your's had you believe.

Fine I will admit early Mig-21 were 2nd generation but does it still change the fact that your claim for IAF's air superiority over PAF has been debunked? still over dosed with your delusional lados?

Are you saying IAF did not secure complete air superiority over East Pakistan and forced PAF into a defensive role over West Pakistan by the end of the war?

and does it also change the fact that Mig-21 were destroyed by PAF which NEVER saw any action in 65?

Destroyed when?

I dont know who to blame for your utter BS your hands or your brain?

Dude, stop behaving as if you're of some superior race here, for all we know, you are the one who's got
his facts bungled up.

F-104 was never a dog fighter in fact its main role was high altitude interceptor.

...akin to F-86s equipped for air superiority shooting down Hunters equipped for ground attack. Apples & oranges.

The accuracy of Aim-9B which PAF operated during 65 and 71 was less then 16%! Meaning for every 7 Aim-9B fired would result a kill and that only under a perfect scenario. It had tendency of locking by itself on clouds and sun and miss target. Not only that it had ZERO performance in low altitude where most of PAF IAF dogfights took place.

Sidewinder was still much better than the K-13 that IAF had.

go bark at Bharatraksack not me who identify Mystere IV as second gen fighter.

Are you naive? Here is a guy who can't tell the difference between propeller-driven fighter aircraft and a jet-powered fighter aircraft but is ready to talk about war history!! And I already gave you a link which clearly shows both F-86 Sabre and Mystere-IV as first-generation jet fighters.

Your claim about IAF having air superiority over PAF in 65 and 71 is nothing less of a brain fart. You have yet to prove your claim with substantial evidence.

Have you ever heard of any instance since WW2 where a country wins the air war and yet loses the war?

I haven't read much about 65 war (most of our aircraft were new & untested then), but I can talk about 71 for sure,
as I've read quite a bit.

BTW, you need to brush up on your skills at properly quoting the other member. Do you want me to teach that
to you Mr. Senior Member?

 

[Green Angel]

India should ignore the whole deal of Rafale ........ Tejas is best for them.

Better than J 20 with crap AL 31 FN engines and F 35. This baby will come second to only F 22 and maybe F 35 in the long run. BTW how is your JF 17 Mard - e -Momin going to fight this bastard?

FGFA (Khali) vs JF 17 (Oneil)

Just check the THIN legs of you FGFA ....... Lol