Mob kills Christian family in Jhelum

[Dr.Evil]

Quran says plenty of good things but its followers dont follow that.

 

[Desert Fox]

The basic thing is that all religion should teach that other religion are good as well, it is just their way to worship and follow god. The problem comes when we teach that people belonging to other religion are evil and infidels.

Just because 1 ignorant dumb Mullah and his ignorant followers commited this barbaric hatre crime and you blame the whole religion and every Muslim? proves your ignorance!

---------- Post added at 03:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 AM ----------

Quran says plenty of good things but its followers dont follow that.

so then don't blame the religion, blame the followers!

 

[T-Faz]

Only in your head. for a mod this is highly conservative approach, i don't know why would you directly jump to pin the blame on religion just because some mobsters have said so to justify these murders.

Quran says
"that whoever kills a single soul for other than a soul or corruption in earth, it is as though he has killed all of humanity together, & whoever saves the life of a single soul, it is as though he has saved the life of all of humanity together"

It is said that once at the time of conquest, a singing girl was brought to al-Muhajir b. Abu Umayya who had been publicly singing satirical poems about Hadrat Abu Bakr. Muhajir got her hand amputated. When the Caliph heard this news, he was shocked and wrote a letter to Muhajir in the following words:

"I have learnt that you laid hands on a woman who had hurled abuses on me, and, therefore, got her hand amputated. God has not sought vengeance even in the case of polytheism, which is a great crime. He has not permitted mutilation even with regard to manifest infidelity. Try to be considerate and sympathetic in your attitude towards others in future. Never mutilate, because it is a grave offence. God purified Islam and the Muslims from rashness and excessive wrath. You are well aware of the fact that those enemies fell into the hands of the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) who had been recklessly abusing him; who had turned him out of his home; and who fought against him, but he never permitted their mutilation."

This is exactly the response I was looking for and I did mention this when I stated that someone will provide examples from a different time altogether. I know of these incidents you have cited, I am currently reading Quran in english to understand it completely. I follow and learn religious history from multiple credible sources to get a better understanding of it.

However all that you said remains but these people have used religion as an issue to kill innocents from another religion. What i said is correct and I stand by it, what would we achieve by oft repeating these examples when people are killing many in the name of religion. Certainly these examples are not being repeated or learned from.

This is the problem in our society, people are continually overlooking the cause of such incidents which lies in an intolerant and aggressive interpretation of religion.

These people were killed becuase they were accused of blasphemy and this clearly refers to religious blasphemy as stated so by our constitution.

 

[Dr.Evil]

Just because 1 ignorant dumb Mullah and his ignorant followers commited this barbaric hatre crime and you blame the whole religion and every Muslim? proves your ignorance!

---------- Post added at 03:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:30 AM ----------



so then don't blame the religion, blame the followers!

Did you see anyone blaming religion, People are blaming the fundamentally flawed Blasphemy laws.

These laws are being abused so they need to be repealed for the larger good of the society.

 

[SMC]

These uneducated self-made Islam followers are the biggest problem for Pakistan today. I don't know the complete solution to this madness, but regulating the Madrehsas would be a start.

 

[amit27]

why is not any major pakistani media reporting this incident?

 

[Peregrine]

Let me explain how i see all this without being biased & prejudiced "not only people of today are following their own interpretations of Islam but, the very foundations of our justice system are corrupt & inefficacious in confronting those who commit crimes. some inept & fanatic religious leaders will continue to embrace such brutality & intolerance towards other religions by incorporating their own extremist ideologies into islamic guideline & principles to achieve desired effects. meanwhile, religious bigots will find a coherent platform to erect their tedious declamations to penalize the religion. there are numerous examples of Islamic perspective regarding tolerance so i deem it unnecessary to quote them over & over.
So it all boils down to this" Its the responsibility of our governments & judiciary to make sure that such criminals don't go scot free just because they use false interpretation of Islamic teachings, rather they should face severe consequences"
Islam has not asked Mr Z or Iftikhar Chaudry to not punish them, so its highly irrelevant to blame religion here, if a student doesn't get the Calculus question right then we dont blame Issac newton because its the incompetency of they student that failed him not the developers of calculus.
Hope i was able to carry my point well enough to be judged impartially .

 

[amit27]

I thought christians and jews are mentioned in the quran as people of the book why are muslims attacking them then?

 

[sparklingway]

if a student doesn't get the Calculus question right then we dont blame Issac newton because its the incompetency of they student that failed him not the developers of calculus.

However we will and should blame the teacher if he taught all the concepts in a wrong way and taught the wrong formulas as well.

And that is analogous to the state indoctrinating people with a xenophobic and bigoted view of history, indoctrinating a stringent interpretation of religion, teaching in a way that leaves no room for tolerant debate and coverage of on the "negative roles" played by other religious communities. Our curriculum has focused not just on identifying causes of the separation from united India, but placed emphasis on portraying Hindus as being cunning/evil (hindu banya portrayal and this carries on to our television as well) and portraying the whole world as being on get-the-muslims mission.

In such a scenario, not only is the society to blame but the social-religio-political boundaries become obscured and the nation as a whole is to blame.

You know it, I know it and it has been covered by everyone from historians like K K Aziz to institutes like SDPI.

Negative portrayal of other religions with no message of religious tolerance and equality of people regardless of faith does and will lead to persecution in the name of religion.

I'm now sick of inferiority complexed people posting time and again how Islam is not linked to persecution of other religious communities. We have established that over and over. Nobody said that Islam was responsible here, however people feel it is necessary to explain the religious context. It is out of the sense of religious persecution felt by Muslims (especially Pakistanis) across the world that such responses are felt necessary by people.

Hardline Deobandis deem Barelvis as Kafir (With Wajib ul Qatl labels from militant organizations like SSP and LeJ)
Hardline Deobandis and many Barelvis deem Shias as Kafir (With Wajib ul Qatl labels from militant organizations like SSP and LeJ)
Everybody deems Ahmedis as Kafir and most deem them Wajib ul Qatl
and there's a long list of inter-maslak intolerance and bigotry outside the hardlines and militants as well (Sunnis with a fairly conservative religious background must have heard "stories" that roam around about Shia events and gatherings, don't tell me that this is not a mainstream problem)

The problem has been noted time and again that it is the lack of tolerance towards other religions and it is prevalent throughout our society and is indoctrinated though our curriculum as well. To undo such damage would require adding emphasis on religious tolerance and keeping faith a private matter through curriculum changes and not letting bigots roam free. However, in the wake of petro-dollar Wahabist maulvis roaming throughout the country, that is a distant dream since any changes in curriculum whatsoever when it comes to religion is deemed "USA sponsored destruction of Islam" (I remember the protests in Pindi when the Punjab Text Book Board cut out two sentences on compulsory Jihad against infidels from the matriculation Islamiat text book).

I have witnessed three of my friends refusing to play anymore with a brother duo when they came to know that they were Christians. Like most Christians in Pakistan, they had a common Pakistani first name and therefore it does not symbolize faith itself. We were just 10 years old and one day this guy was narrating how awful it was that his older cousin had converted to some liberalistic interpretation (of course he would have heard his elders demonizing it otherwise how would he know). The brother duo said that they were Christians and for the next two years (their father got posted somewhere else), more than half the kids in the neighbourhood did not talk to them and refused to play with them and felt repulsed. And these were the "educated" military brats who represent the soon to be upper-middle class and thew new aristocracy. I've heard people whispering to each other after coming to know about the fiath of other people more than once and I'm annoyed by it.

People who can be deemed as tolerant and so-called liberals, but in reality are just sane headed people when it comes to this issue are scared of expressing their views on such issues in the public since they know the consequences. It's time people become courageous and take the bigot mullahs head on.

Lack of tolerance towards other religions is systematic in our country and you have to accept it. Blasphemy Laws have to be thrown into the dustbin of history if we want to progress (any overly offensive statements can be prosecuted under many existing laws). There is no room for religious intolerance since we've seen it's fruits. Teach kids that religion is a personal matter and respecting other religions is above everything.

 

[amit27]

I think Jinnah will be turning in his grave right now, he had a secular image of pakistan which is long gone maybe 4 eva.

 

[Peregrine]

Nobody said that Islam was responsible here

Allow me to show you

It is religion that caused this murder to occur.

Other than calling me an inferiority complexed person your entire post went around in circles blaming wahabis & people of Pakistan, but you failed to apprehend the main point from my post that 'its the responsibility of the government & judiciary to make these things clear to people, if there are proper laws against the intolerance towards minorities in pakistan then no body will dare to even speak ill of them, if you are aware that Mr Z passed a presidential ordinance to confront those who mock him through SMS, so they cant do the same to protect the image of non-muslims?......... Please
The same beloved democratic legislature in Pakistan is running around & cursing media for trying to expose the frauds committed by the democratic leaders for having fake degress, but they cannot make strict laws against religious intolerance??

 

[nForce]

I think Jinnah will be turning in his grave right now, he had a secular image of pakistan which is long gone maybe 4 eva.

hmm..reminds me of Iskander Mirza.Probably the most important, certainly the most forgotten, and definitely ,one of the most controversial.

 

[sparklingway]

Allow me to show you

T-Faz has explained to you the nature and the context of that sentence. Religion being used in more than one case (and hence ruling out the exception argument) makes religious dogmas the basis and the culprit. This does not mean that religion itself propagates and advocates such acts. Understand the difference.

Other than calling me an inferiority complexed person your entire post went around in circles blaming wahabis & people of Pakistan, but you failed to apprehend the main point from my post that 'its the responsibility of the government & judiciary to make these things clear to people, if there are proper laws against the intolerance towards minorities in pakistan then no body will dare to even speak ill of them, if you are aware that Mr Z passed a presidential ordinance to confront those who mock him through SMS, so they cant do the same to protect the image of non-muslims?.........

No, there are no laws to protect them from intolerance. There are no "hate laws" like in Canada. However we do have laws to protect the feelings of "constitutional Muslims" and they are called Blasphemy Laws. We do not have special laws that protect minorities.

Also state officials aren't above social prejudices and judges come through the same system that indoctrinates intolerance. You'd like them to be above such bigotry, but they aren't.

And as YLH wrote in his op-ed today, you just have to read 1993 SCMR 1718 and you'll be in love with judicial bigotry and officiated persecution of minorities in this country.

The same beloved democratic legislature in Pakistan is running around & cursing media for trying to expose the frauds committed by the democratic leaders for having fake degress, but they cannot make strict laws against religious intolerance??

No, they do not have the will (since most of them are are intolerant themselves) and they cannot make such laws since mullah crowd will come out chanting slogans. Perhaps you forgot the furor in the public and the legislature over the Protection of Women (Criminal Laws Amendment) Act, 2006 which had been deemed to be in line with Islamic principles by the Council of Islamic Ideology. If that case allowed the joint mullah alliance of MMA to overturn tables in the parliament and organize massive protests on the streets, imagine what would occur if somebody presents a bill to repeal the blasphemy laws. You know the dynamics of our society; there's no point in denying the realistically obvious thing. No one has the political capital to set out on such a revolutionary path.

 

[Peregrine]

T-Faz has explained to you the nature and the context of that sentence. Religion being used in more than one case (and hence ruling out the exception argument) makes religious dogmas the basis and the culprit. This does not mean that religion itself propagates and advocates such acts. Understand the difference.



No, there are no laws to protect them from intolerance. There are no "hate laws" like in Canada. However we do have laws to protect the feelings of "constitutional Muslims" and they are called Blasphemy Laws. We do not have special laws that protect minorities.

Also state officials aren't above social prejudices and judges come through the same system that indoctrinates intolerance. You'd like them to be above such bigotry, but they aren't.

And as YLH wrote in his op-ed today, you just have to read 1993 SCMR 1718 and you'll be in love with judicial bigotry and officiated persecution of minorities in this country.



No, they do not have the will (since most of them are are intolerant themselves) and they cannot make such laws since mullah crowd will come out chanting slogans. Perhaps you forgot the furor in the public and the legislature over the Protection of Women (Criminal Laws Amendment) Act, 2006 which had been deemed to be in line with Islamic principles by the Council of Islamic Ideology. If that case allowed the joint mullah alliance of MMA to overturn tables in the parliament and organize massive protests on the streets, imagine what would occur if somebody presents a bill to repeal the blasphemy laws. You know the dynamics of our society; there's no point in denying the realistically obvious thing. No one has the political capital to set out on such a revolutionary path.

Hi
so let me get this straight if i say, i supported the actions of taliban i will be labeled as an extremist & banned from this forum but if i say i meant their actions against Soviets so that will be a good thing as it was done at the behest of americans, so one can always manipulate ones statements to deny the essence of their previous words, so let's not go there, you asked who did, i gave you the proof, so that's it.

Your last para only speaks of the incapacity of the Pakistani government to confront those Mulla's who want to dictate their own code of life to the entire populace of Pakistan, as for riots & protests i think its not something which the government should be intimated by to do what is right........ please prove me if i am wrong but wasn't there a lot of negative public opinion regarding the decision of Pakistani government to side with USA in WOT, Didn't people oppose Red mosque military assault? did this negative public opinion stop the government from doing so?

No one has the political capital to set out on such a revolutionary path.

So you are admitting on your own that its the people themselves who are corrupted from the very base to the highest echelons of legislation in Pakistan, every action represents personal interests.
When Quran is saying to show tolerance towards non-muslims then who the hell are these Mullah's to preach their own set of rules & if that happens then government has no excuse for not putting a leash on such pseudo Religious leaders.

 

[amit27]

hmm..reminds me of Iskander Mirza.Probably the most important, certainly the most forgotten, and definitely ,one of the most controversial.

Iskander Mirza? not heard of this person time to wiki it up i guess