MMRCA Rafale And Cancellation Threats

[IndoUS]

indians are asking too much. engine crystal blade technology is a result of long time hard work research, many trials and errors and billion of dollars. it's the crown jewel in aerospace industry. noboy gonna give you that. this is money can't buy tech. it's worth more than your $20 bn..
the reason india is looking for new partners to help develop the kaverie engine is also because the french reluctant to transfer technology of the hot section. they need to stop asking for that. the best you can get from them or anyone related to engine are how to make low pressure turbine blades, nuts and bolts.. lol

During the initial contract the conditions were the ToT in the engine and radar systems of the plane. The French agreed to the initial agreement and put their plane up for the MMRCA contract, and now they are against it. Its not India's fault, if they had not decided on giving the ToT, then they should have stayed out of the race. But now that they are selected they have to oblige with the original terms which are the sharing of the ToT in engine design and manufacturing, since its one of the main reason we are buying these planes to get the knowledge behind the srystal blade technology.

 

[faithfulguy]

indians are asking too much. engine crystal blade technology is a result of long time hard work research, many trials and errors and billion of dollars. it's the crown jewel in aerospace industry. noboy gonna give you that. this is money can't buy tech. it's worth more than your $20 bn..
the reason india is looking for new partners to help develop the kaverie engine is also because the french reluctant to transfer technology of the hot section. they need to stop asking for that. the best you can get from them or anyone related to engine are how to make low pressure turbine blades, nuts and bolts.. lol

I believe India should not ask for tot and try to develop tech indigenously. And decouple tech rev from weapon purchase. But if it must have tot, don't ask for stuff that others won't give. But everything has a price. I would sell this tech for some territory of India.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Its seem we have raining Chinese ESP test subjects here.

the reason india is looking for new partners to help develop the kaverie engine is also because the french reluctant to transfer technology of the hot section.

Source? proof?

they need to stop asking for that. the best you can get from them or anyone related to engine are how to make low pressure turbine blades, nuts and bolts.. lol

Again! Source/proof?

 

[for truth]

Its seem we have raining Chinese ESP test subjects here.



Source? proof?



Again! Source/proof?

you do know that asking low life trolls for information is a wrong thing here.

 

[Donatello]

Dassault has the right to protect it's intellectual property. Why would they or anyone give blueprints and manfuacturing process on say the aircraft frame, engine blades etc?

I mean, India might be looking to gain leaps by floating this tender and then blackmail the company to do ToT, but hey, Dassault wants to stay in business too. There is a limit to what they can throw out the door. Just because you are purchasing the jets, doesn't mean they will sell you the know how as well. Maybe if you spend more they would, but then Rafale would be expensive.

Jet Fighter Tech is extremely costly to develop. I guess India knows that with the experience of Kaveri.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Dassault has the right to protect it's intellectual property. Why would they or anyone give blueprints and manfuacturing process on say the aircraft frame, engine blades etc?

I mean, India might be looking to gain leaps by floating this tender and then blackmail the company to do ToT, but hey, Dassault wants to stay in business too. There is a limit to what they can throw out the door. Just because you are purchasing the jets, doesn't mean they will sell you the know how as well. Maybe if you spend more they would, but then Rafale would be expensive.

Jet Fighter Tech is extremely costly to develop. I guess India knows that with the experience of Kaveri.

Why would Dassualt do it? Hmmm, could it be because of the $20+ BN on the table??? This was part of the original RFP and Dassualt must have accepted this as it entered the competition.

 

[arp2041]

Why would Dassualt do it? Hmmm, could it be because of the $20+ BN on the table??? This was part of the original RFP and Dassualt must have accepted this as it entered the competition.

I was about to point out this fact, the original RFP was the most detailed & well written Proposal for these jets, it ran into hundreds of pages detailing every requirement of IAF & answering every possible query of the vendor, why else the IAF took 1-2 years for issuing them?? All six contenders would have not entered the competition if they would not adhered to the QRs/TOT for IAF, it would be very unprofessional for them. In fact IAF would have rejected there proposal on the first place. When IAF floated the AAR proposal, Boeing did not participated since they were not able to fulfill some of the IAF requirements.

This article also talks about some un-professionalism on behalf of the French/Dassault:

It

Negotiations are moving not at the desired speed and French questioning and asking for clarification on many points will only lead to further delays even when most of it was mentioned in RFP and RFI.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I was about to point out this fact, the original RFP was the most detailed & well written Proposal for these jets, it ran into hundreds of pages detailing every requirement of IAF & answering every possible query of the vendor, why else the IAF took 1-2 years for issuing them?? All six contenders would have not entered the competition if they would not adhered to the QRs/TOT for IAF, it would be very unprofessional for them. In fact IAF would have rejected there proposal on the first place. When IAF floated the AAR proposal, Boeing did not participated since they were not able to fulfill some of the IAF requirements.

This article also talks about some un-professionalism on behalf of the French/Dassault:

It

Indeed, it seems the French are backpedaling and hoping they can clinch this deal and disclose as few classified details as possible. Understandable but the MoD are sticking to the original path- no detours.

It will be all or nothing for Dassualt, either they comply by Indian rules or they walk away with nothing. I hope they are smarter than this.

 

[Donatello]

Why would Dassualt do it? Hmmm, could it be because of the $20+ BN on the table??? This was part of the original RFP and Dassualt must have accepted this as it entered the competition.

Rafale is supply state of the Art jets as part of the 20Bn. It's a small amount, given the sensitive technology on offer.

Like i said, every firm will protect their intellectual property.

Sending pre-fabricated turbine blades to assemble at HAL is one thing. Giving the exact metallurgical formula and how to cast it, is a whole lot different story. India is looking to get latter, at the cost of the former.

Let's see what the exact details were and then comment.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Rafale is supply state of the Art jets as part of the 20Bn. It's a small amount, given the sensitive technology on offer.

Like i said, every firm will protect their intellectual property.

Sending pre-fabricated turbine blades to assemble at HAL is one thing. Giving the exact metallurgical formula and how to cast it, is a whole lot different story. India is looking to get latter, at the cost of the former.

Let's see what the exact details were and then comment.

Like I said before, this is part of the MMRCA deal, Dassualt I'm sure understood this fully before entering in the MMRCA fray. All they are doing is standard negotiation tactics. But if they want to secure this deal they are going to have to honour the MMRCA's RFP verbatim, the Indian side is in control in these negotiations have no doubt, it is their prerogative to order the MMRCA, the Indian MoD isn't going to back down that's for sure. Dassualt have a lot riding on the MMRCA and stand to lose the most if talks collapse. If they do the EFT will bag the order within months.

 

[arp2041]

Indeed, it seems the French are backpedaling and hoping they can clinch this deal and disclose as few classified details as possible. Understandable but the MoD are sticking to the original path- no detours.

It will be all or nothing for Dassualt, either they comply by Indian rules or they walk away with nothing. I hope they are smarter than this.

I hope they are not such a big fools. The people talking about MMRCA deal are looking onto just one side of the coin wherein the IAF needs these planes badly but if one looks closely to the other side than he will agree that It is the French that needs this deal more badly.

For IAF as things stands, collapse of talks will mean that they have ET guys standing with maybe more tempting a deal than Rafale, the talks may take few months more but we can offset that with increasing the no. of jets made in OEM from 18 to say 40-50 to cover the time lost. We can also order more sukhois or fasten the development of LCA if need arises. Oh c'mon we have spend last 10 years without getting any LCA, when the prediction was of doom if we doesn't get it. The credit goes to IAF/Indian JUGAAD I don't see any reason why can't we spend another 5-6 years also.

But for the French the collapse of this deal means direct loss of $20 billion. Since after this happens i am sure even the IN will not select DCNS for the nearly $10 billion tender of P-75I when they are the most strong candidate, apart from this another loss could be of $5-6 billion of Rafale-M order (50-60 jets) for IAC-2. This means close to $ 35 billion in direct losses. Not to mention that this hardball will certainly not go well with Other nations & this first export order of Rafale would certainly mean the last one.

But i guess this is too much of hypothetical scenario, we should just wait for 3-4 months more & see how things turn out

 

[Donatello]

Like I said before, this is part of the MMRCA deal, Dassualt I'm sure understood this fully before entering in the MMRCA fray. All they are doing is standard negotiation tactics. But if they want to secure this deal they are going to have to honour the MMRCA's RFP verbatim, the Indian side is in control in these negotiations have no doubt, it is their prerogative to order the MMRCA, the Indian MoD isn't going to back down that's for sure. Dassualt have a lot riding on the MMRCA and stand to lose the most if talks collapse. If they do the EFT will bag the order within months.

The question still remains, will EFT offer full ToT or not. India better make sure they do, before going back to negotiating table with Dassault.

In my view, EFT and Dassault Rafale are both superior aircraft.

 

[Abingdonboy]

The question still remains, will EFT offer full ToT or not. India better make sure they do, before going back to negotiating table with Dassault.

In my view, EFT and Dassault Rafale are both superior aircraft.

Well, like Dassualt, they have agreed to play by the Indian terms of ToT and offsets just by entering the MMRCA fray. Right now EFT/EADS is not even on the table, they are waiting in the wings, the ONLY time they will become relevant or be listened to is IF talks between the MoD and Dassualt fail.

 

[Speeder 2]

LCA even in its present form is better than half the aircrafts in IAF's inventory. Nowhere near a rafale in capabilities, but still better than most of the IAF's or PAF's planes. ...

An Indian joke LCA that is. Before you brag it to the Mars, first let’s see if this “3++ gen Mig-21” could pass the India’s minimum qualification (i.e. test pilots’ fear factor) in order to be inducted, ever.

... for one thing, the F-18 is a lot cheaper than EF or Rafale, and for another, we won't be paying for ToT. With Boeing's mindnumbingly huge production capabilities, we will get all the 126 (or 189) fighters in five years' time. The IAF's pressing need is for numbers, not technology - as it is, we will have two aircrafts (super MKI and these) that are technologically superior to anything in Asia.

Asia’s best? Again, Indian shameless bragging… so what are F-15K in Korea? F-22 A in Okinawa? J-10 B, J-11B and J-16 in China? Or J-20, J-31, after Russia and USA ship you that “super MKI” and SH?

.

Nobody would want to transfer all their technology just because we throw money at them. So let us use a lot less money to just buy the end product, and use the rest of the allocated money to do our own R&D, and produce our own stuff in future. It is the more difficult route, but it may be the only possible route. Dassault did not get to where it is today by buying technology for money. NEither did boeing or LM or anybody else.

....

Right, except Indian can’t do R&D in a systematic manner for any complicated high tech project that involves multiple disciplines, except perhaps 1 or 2 piece meal when get lucky in the long run.

For that matter only 2 races of people can do serious high tech R&D, by which I mean systemic ly and in full scope: they are the ones who have their own hydrogen bombs; they are ones who have the highest average IQ in the world that one can verify it via global PISA and TIMSS rankings; they are the ones who rank top 5 in worldwide ICT patent and scientific research rankings; they are the people who occupy the top slot in any high tech industry one cares to look at…heck indeed they are the 2 races who run the UNSC!

They are NE Asians/Orientals and North of Alps Gemanics and Nordics.

India? Pleeease!

 

[IndoUS]

Well, like Dassualt, they have agreed to play by the Indian terms of ToT and offsets just by entering the MMRCA fray. Right now EFT/EADS is not even on the table, they are waiting in the wings, the ONLY time they will become relevant or be listened to is IF talks between the MoD and Dassualt fail.

Didn't EADS say that they are willing to share the crystal blade tech. Because I saw some news about it when the two were selected.