What's new

Missile Strike Above LOC

Again sir, are you saying it is programed to ALWAYS follow this pattern? It cannot home-in on to target from its side and/or behind specially when it have closed the gap on target to a few hundred meters only? Is the "from-top" ONLY approach to target even at the final moments?

Yes it is. AMRAAM is never launched in close quarters. And on 27th none of the missiles were launched in a range lesser than 20 nm.

There is a term called Missile Lofting. AMRAAM is programmed to follow LOFTING under all conditions. The missile is launched, it gains some G's and climbs up. Gains speed and proceeds with the least drag possible. Even if the target is 5 km away, the AMRAAM will rise to a height and then home in from above.

The primary reason why I disagreed with OP's post is because the contrails of missile cannot be seen from ground level due to the fact that from ground, the contrails are only visible if they are formed in Block 2 which is between FL200 to FL350 at most. And AMRAAM's contrails didn't form in block 2 at all on Feb 27. The F-16s themselves were at FL250. So just imagine the LOFT of AMRAAM at that point. The missile would have climbed in excess of 70000 ft and that height the jet streams are formed which don't let contrails stay at all.

Contrails are always formed in stable condition's. By stable conditions I mean stable wind conditions, negative jet streams
 
Last edited:
.
WRONG !!!!
Are we lead to believe that if the shooter is flying at say 20K and the target at 30k....the AMRAAM will somehow climb to 30K+....and then home in. ?? In reality these weapons rise up about 15 degrees after launch and then continue more or less level. They do not come down from above the target. I don't want to say too much as hopefully all the details will be cleared by the AHQ in a few days except contrary to the Indian cavalier claims of dodging some half dozen AMRAAMS, the PAF in fact launched only two of these weapons.



Instead of habitually taking pot shots, why don't you enlighten us with your esteemed knowledge.
Like after IAF's misadventure on the 26th, India could have closed it's airspace and that would have prevented the humiliation the next day....at least going by your logic. :lol:
The one at 30k is at more advantage than the other.So the one you are referring as to shooter will actually be the target.
 
.
fb_img_1554282933258-1-jpg.563023


@Arsalan . This is the detail i described in the OP, the trail above the power lines.

I see 3 contrails ... flying from right to left... can someone put time stamps from initial to understand respective position at interval 0 , 1, 2 ... and what planes and where is the missile ...
 
.
What is your idea about this video?


Instead of habitually taking pot shots, why don't you enlighten us with your esteemed knowledge.
Like after IAF's misadventure on the 26th, India could have closed it's airspace and that would have prevented the humiliation the next day....at least going by your logic. :lol:

Wind man, God knows what you are saying here ?
anyway since you actually have no clue what you yourself have posted.....

IMG_20190601_044845.jpg
 
.
The one at 30k is at more advantage than the other.So the one you are referring as to shooter will actually be the target.

This is one of the reasons why AMRAAM practices LOFTING. To nullify this altitude advantage even if the launch aircraft is at a lesser height. Since at high altitudes the missile delivers its maximum performance figures.

I just wish some members took feedback in a more constructive manner instead of getting personal.
 
.
Why would someone use BVR when away few hundred meters from target?

AMRAAM comes from above. @airomerix has given enough examples to prove that.
Boss i am saying when the missile REACHES/gets near the target. Even shot at BVR it will eventually have to get close to the target to strike it right? :)

So the question was:
are you saying it is programed to ALWAYS follow this pattern? (to shoot up and then come down toward target and ALWAYS do that) It cannot home-in on to target from its side and/or behind SPECIALLY when it have closed the gap on target to a few hundred meters only, WILL IT STILL BE COMING AT THE TARGET FROM TOP OR AT THAT TIME IT WOULD HAVE LEVELED OFF? Is the "from-top" ONLY approach to target even at the final moments?
@airomerix


AMRAAM comes from above. @airomerix has given enough examples to prove that.
CAN come from Above

or

ALWAYS come from above?

Even at terminal phase is it coming towards target from above?

Yes it is. AMRAAM is never launched in close quarters. And on 27th none of the missiles were launched in a range lesser than 20 nm.

There is a term called Missile Lofting. AMRAAM is programmed to follow LOFTING under all conditions. The missile is launched, it gains some G's and climbs up. Gains speed and proceeds with the least drag possible. Even if the target is at 5 km away, the AMRAAM will rise to a height and then home in from above.

The primary reason why I disagreed with OP's post is because the contrails of missile cannot be seen from ground level due to the fact that from ground, the contrails are only visible if they are formed in Block 2 which is between FL20 to FL350 at most. And AMRAAM's contrails didn't form in block 2 at all on Feb 27. The F-16s themselves were at FL250. So just imagine the LOFT of AMRAAM at that point. The missile would have climbed in excess of 70000 ft and that height the jet streams are formed which don't let contrails stay at all.

Contrails are always formed in stable condition's. By stable conditions I mean stable wind conditions, negative jet streams
I am not talking about launching at close range. Asked about the approach path in final/terminal stages. Please check the post again.
 
.
I see 3 contrails ... flying from right to left... can someone put time stamps from initial to understand respective position at interval 0 , 1, 2 ... and what planes and where is the missile ...
None of the contrails belong to the missile.

The jet turning is hot and the straight contrail is a cold turn
Boss i am saying when the missile REACHES/gets near the target. Even shot at BVR it will eventually have to get close to the target to strike it right? :)

So the question was:
are you saying it is programed to ALWAYS follow this pattern? (to shoot up and then come down toward target and ALWAYS do that) It cannot home-in on to target from its side and/or behind SPECIALLY when it have closed the gap on target to a few hundred meters only, WILL IT STILL BE COMING AT THE TARGET FROM TOP OR AT THAT TIME IT WOULD HAVE LEVELED OFF? Is the "from-top" ONLY approach to target even at the final moments?
@airomerix






CAN come from Above

or

ALWAYS come from above?

Even at terminal phase is it coming towards target from above?

Please see the post #54. Last sentence.

The missile does not hit the target from above. In the final phase, the missile will hit the target from an angle which is classified information. But it doesn't hit from above. If that's answers your question.

But the contrails of the missile is what OP is implying a consequence of missile launch is my disagreement.
 
.
@airomerix: Is it possible for you to lay down your interpretation of the OP image; since you know far more than most of the PDF posters, on this subject.
 
.
None of the contrails belong to the missile.

The jet turning is hot and the straight contrail is a cold turn


Please see the post #54. Last sentence.

The missile does not hit the target from above. In the final phase, the missile will hit the target from an angle which is classified information. But it doesn't hit from above. If that's answers your question.

But the over all trajectory of the missile is what OP is implying a consequence of the contrails.
It does, good!
So the trail in image, how long you think it to be? 300 to 500meters? Do you think, APART FROM THIS DISCUSSION that this is from the time where the missile is no longer coming in on to the target from a height but have leveled off with the target or is whatever that final angle of attack is.
 
.
None of the contrails belong to the missile.
The jet turning is hot and the straight contrail is a cold turn

But there are three trails:

1) Just above the electric line: Straight with a bend at the end
2) Almost straight, above the first one
3) The curved one
 
.
Wind man, God knows what you are saying here ?
anyway since you actually have no clue what you yourself have posted.....

View attachment 563025
Damn dude, this is Nowshera, Chickens neck area of Akhnoor sector and F-16s are doing circles. :lol:
For one, the F-16 were no where near the LOC....and do you think after launching it's weapons over enemy territory the F-16 will do a nicely patterned ''U'' turn rather than just breaking off. :D
 
.
It does, good!
So the trail in image, how long you think it to be? 300 to 500meters? Do you think, APART FROM THIS DISCUSSION that this is from the time where the missile is no longer coming in on to the target from a height but have leveled off with the target or is whatever that final angle of attack is.

These contrails range from at least 800 to 1500 meters.

But there are three trails:

1) Just above the electric line: Straight with a bend at the end
2) Almost straight, above the first one
3) The curved one

It cannot be determined which jets are which.

If its Pakistani airspace then it can be JF-17s or F-16s. If its Indian then these are migs or Su's. Simple.
 
.
These contrails range from at least 800 to 1500 meters.
and
It does, good!
Do you think, APART FROM THIS DISCUSSION that this is from the time where the missile is no longer coming in on to the target from a height but have leveled off with the target or is whatever that final angle of attack is.
 
.
The one at 30k is at more advantage than the other.So the one you are referring as to shooter will actually be the target.
Yes in an ideal situation but what if tables were turned, would the AMRAAM climb to over 30K feet and then home in on the target. !!
 
.
Lets make it easier for everyone to understand.

The following extracts are from AMRAAM's performance review.

<Document Start>

5.1 Scenario 1 - Estimated real world scenario

The missile is travelling at Mach 0.83 and 6km above sea level. It launches and accelerates forwards
for 1s before it begins a 15o climb, levelling off at 13km ASL (Above Sea Level). It maintained this
ballistic trajectory before angling itself down to intercept at target point at 6km ASL with a missile
speed of Mach 0.9.
See Figure 28.

Below Points about the first scenario

  • The missile at a 15o climb was unable to level off at 13km ASL in the simulation. Instead it chose 14km ASL as the most energy efficient levelling altitude for this angle.
  • It required 21o dive in order to make the intercept altitude and speed.
  • It made this intercept at a range of 60km. This is much further than the comparable 5000m ASL straight line shot (~35km effective range).
ELABORATION: Missile launches at 6 km above sea level. Climbs up to 14 km above sea level. Then intercepts the target at 6 km above sea level.

5.2 Scenario 2 - Estimated maximum possible performance

Using what was learnt above, the next test examined the maximum possible range of the missile in
realistic scenarios at missile parameter limits. The missile was launched at 13km at Mach 1.5 and
began its climb to 22km. It maintains this altitude before descending at angle that causes an
intersection at 6km at Mach 0.9
See Figure 29 below

Point about the second scenario

  •  The ascent angle is still relatively low.
  •  It demonstrates that the theoretical maximum realistic range of the missile on a stationary point is approximately 90km.
ELABORATION: Missile launches at 13 km above sea level. Climbs up to 22 km above sea level. Then intercepts the target at 6 km above sea level.

5.3 Scenario 3 - Estimated low altitude performance
As a stark contrast, a similar scenario was attempted at 500m. The launch velocity was Mach 1.1 and
the missile climbed to 6km before starting its descent; intercepting a point at 500m with Mach 0.9
remaining velocity.
See Figure 30 below
Points about the third scenario


    • It was unobtainable. The missile could not climb up to 6km fast enough and then dive back down in order to hit the target point without being less energy efficient than flying straight.
    • Instead the loft altitude was ignored and the target parameters were all that were considered.
    • As a result the missile climbed up to ~11km ASL before descending back down onto the target.
    • The missile fired at low altitudes against a stationary point has a range of ~ 45km
ELABORATION: Missile launches at 0.5 km above sea level. Climbs up to 6 km above sea level. Then intercepts the target at 0.5 km above sea level.

If anyone requires this document then I think there are plenty of other sources on the internet. Or you guys can always ask around. Google is your bestfriend.

Please feel free to ask questions.



Please refer to my last posts. These images don't show us the complete fight trajectory. I never said the missile hits the cockpit from above. :partay:

@Arsalan this guy is displaying intellectual dishonesty by cherrypicking quotes from an unofficial document. Here is the document he is citing:

http://www.zaretto.com/sites/zarett...data/AIM120C5-Performance-Assessment-rev2.pdf

and this is the front page:

AIM-120C-5 Performance Assessment for Digital Combat Simulation Enhancement Revision 2 September 2014 By Thomas Tyrell, United Kingdom Christian Funk, United States of America Nagy Marton, Hungary For questions regarding the assessment performed: IASGATG@gmail.com

It is analysis done by ordinary citizens based on publicly available data. And Mr airomerix has cited the information specifically from a section titled '5. Example Loft scenarios'. The same document also contains information about performance in level flight.

And this is where I lose patience and you say I am getting personal. This is dishonesty and should be dealt with severely. It also brings to question other claims this person has been making on the forum.

Why would someone use BVR when away few hundred meters from target?

AMRAAM comes from above. @airomerix has given enough examples to prove that.

Because maybe you have a radar lock but not a heat signature lock. Or you are simply out of WVRs?
 
.

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom