Mid-life upgrade for F22P

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

IMO, the Mk 141 launchers (from Type 21's) can't be reused on MRTP-33 FAC's, which require a single retractable Mk 140 lightweight canister launcher.



F-22P and Algeria's C28A corvettes have similar weapons suite, but the latter has been installed with Thales Smart-S Mk2 radar. Isn't the same possible with F-22P?



Refer here

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/f-22p-and-053-series.t3886/page-10



Agreed. LY-80N/HHQ-16 is a large missile, the VLS would go deeper below the elevated deck area and the number of cells may not exceed 8.

A better option would be Umkhonto sized missiles. Which would allow a 16 or 24 cell VLS.

He said the PN won't do custom integration because of it's bad experience with integrating systems to the Type 21. However, it's also worth noting that the Azmat FAC is becoming a custom integration job, albeit on a gradual basis, and that STM is basically integrating different third-party hardware to the Agosta 90B at KSEW. You'd think we'd be gaining at least solid integration expertise from these projects...

 

[khanasifm]

054 vs f-22p

054
Displacement (t):......3,647 (standard), 4,053 (full load)
Length (m):............134.1
Beam (m):..............15.2
Draft (m):.............4.05
Speed (knots):.........27
Range (nm):............8,000 at 15 knots
Crew:..................180—190

F22p

CREW
200
OVERALL LENGTH
118m
BREADTH
13.2m
DRAUGHT
5.1m
DEPTH
10.2m
DISPLACEMENT
2,500t /3144t
SPEED
29kt
RANGE
4,000nm

 

[HRK]

Likely 6 ft in height. The deck is slightly taller than the door, so probably 2 - 2.5eters in height.

you may be right but my estimation for the height of elevated deck is based on the ladder which is having 8 steps and its a general observation that in ladder steps are generally placed at 1.5 to 2 feet height so 8 steps mean seven (7) gap of at least 1.5 feet between them so 1.5x7= 10.5 add 1 more foot more as the lower most step seems just 6 inches above the deck same is case with higher most step which is 4-5 inches below the elevated deck so height of elevated deck is approximately 11.5 feet (if we calculate on 1.5 feet gap b/w steps) which is equivalent to 3.5 meters OR 4.5 meter (15 feet) if we assume the gap b/w the steps of ladder around 2 feet.

The HQ-16 is a 5.5m

Army recognition site is showing 5.010 m length (link)

if the vls comes above the deck by 1m and you build up a structure around it for rcs reduction, a vls will fit.

agreed

 

[Gryphon]

I think HHQ-16 SAM is 5 meter in length and the height of elevated deck seem approximately 4 or 5 meter
View attachment 481334

The elevated deck appears approx 2.5m taller than the lower deck (comparing with the person standing in front of the FM-90N launcher).

As per @Basel, the ops room and mess lie just below which I believe will limit the size of the VLS which can be accommodated. This is the reason I have mentioned only Umkhonto (and other similar sized missiles) as the suggested F-22P SAM upgrade.

Umkhonto:

missile length=3.32m
missile diameter=0.18m
canister length=3.8m

LY-80N:

missile length=5m
missile diameter=0.34m
canister length=5.6m

So, for LY-80N, a VLS with length > 5.6m will have to be installed.

I am unaware of the length of old Chinese VLS, the new one is 7m long.
Regards!!




@denel
Provide some details of VLS used for Umkhonto.

 

[khanasifm]

https://plarealtalk.com/chinese-navy-vls-75c0de25545d

The second VLS type was a hot launch VLS very similar in arrangement to the US Mk-41 and European SYLVER, which equipped the 054A class frigate and is capable of firing both HHQ-16 SAMs and VL ASROC type weapons.

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Retirement of Type-21s is out of question, as since we already operate very few ships , so if we can get another 10 years from ship a refurbishment would be great consideration.

We did refurbish the OHP with minimum 63 Million cost and got things upgraded from Turkey and it worked out well for Pakistan Navy

Presently we are just not at a stage where we can discuss retirement of any Navy Ship

This should be the minmum modernization for the Type 021 together with
Anti Ship missiles

The radar / Scan systems would enable modern weapons to be integrated on ship
If we have Chinese Anti Ship / SAM in mind , then Chinese Radar would make sense

When we will upgrade the Radar/Computers , the Chinese systems will automatically be compatible with Chinese Radar and components


And China is making all sort of modern Radars
It would be cost effective upgrade

This is a independent piece all technology for it is separate , and using cabling you just move the data to internal computers in Control Room


The exterior service of Ship can be done during off season , just send it to shipyard for basic improvements and repainting and cleanup


All the sub systems of the Type-21 can be changed (Radars , Sonar ) from China and weapons module can also be upgraded for Chinese Weapons



If we refurbished the OHP ships for 63 Million , the cost to refurbish Type021 would be same or less


VLS for Type021 is out of scope however basic SAM as used on F22P would be acceptable
If after the modernization drive the Type-021 can be upgraded to F22p Level it would be a great MLU for these ships

• 4 Type 054 (Frigates)
• 4 F22P (Frigates)
• 4 MLU Type021 (Frigates)
• 4 MILGEM (Corvettes)

Should be enough for Navy Needs for next 15-20 years

On other hand if we do have 800 Million USD lying around we should order 4 more F22P so we can retire the Type021 or make these ship as training ships

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Yes @araz you are right. Type 21 saw extremely rough and extended handling during the Falklands War including extreme turns in state 3 to 4 seas to avoid AShM missiles, and holding station during state 5 seas, etc. The speed transit to Falklands also took its toll on the boats. South Atlantic at that time of the year is notoriously rough. They formed the anti missile picket line far out of the Falkland Group of Island towards Argentina. So they were constantly operating in rough seas in the open.

They were the first class of British warship taken in from a commercial design by Vosper Thornycraft and first with aluminum superstructure to cut wight and enhance sea keeping qualities... this was later vindicated at Falklands as they bore the worst seas during picket duty. However, RN had no experience in handling aluminium fires and once it broke out on both Ardent and Antelope, there was no hope for them and both were sunk after being bombed by Argentinian planes. All of the remaining six had crack aft of the bridge that were strengthened in Britain before they were handed over to PN. However, as per my info. some cracks developed later on that were then rectified locally.

For general info. the VLS has to have a plenum connected to the uptake hatch. The plenum is a space below the individual missile canister in the VLS structure that traps the missile exhaust and releases it through the uptake hatch and the residual is extracted through the plenum drain.

The plenum takes up about twenty percent of the overall height of the VLS. So do factor it in when calculating the space required for the "Plug" on F22P.

Retirement of Type-21s is out of question, as since we already operate very few ships , so if we can get another 10 years from ship a refurbishment would be great consideration.

We did refurbish the OHP with minimum 63 Million cost and got things upgraded from Turkey and it worked out well for Pakistan Navy

Presently we are just not at a stage where we can discuss retirement of any Navy Ship

This should be the minmum modernization for the Type 021 together with
Anti Ship missiles

The radar / Scan systems would enable modern weapons to be integrated on ship
If we have Chinese Anti Ship / SAM in mind , then Chinese Radar would make sense

View attachment 481491
When we will upgrade the Radar/Computers , the Chinese systems will automatically be compatible with Chinese Radar and components


And China is making all sort of modern Radars
It would be cost effective upgrade

This is a independent piece all technology for it is separate , and using cabling you just move the data to internal computers in Control Room


The exterior service of Ship can be done during off season , just send it to shipyard for basic improvements and repainting and cleanup


All the sub systems of the Type-21 can be changed (Radars , Sonar ) from China and weapons module can also be upgraded for Chinese Weapons



If we refurbished the OHP ships for 63 Million , the cost to refurbish Type021 would be same or less


VLS for Type021 is out of scope however basic SAM as used on F22P would be acceptable
If after the modernization drive the Type-021 can be upgraded to F22p Level it would be a great MLU for these ships


View attachment 481492

• 4 Type 054 (Frigates)
• 4 F22P (Frigates)
• 4 MLU Type021 (Frigates)
• 4 MILGEM (Corvettes)

Should be enough for Navy Needs for next 15-20 years

On other hand if we do have 800 Million USD lying around we should order 4 more F22P so we can retire the Type021 or make these ship as training ships

They will be retired as PN retired PNS Babur and Badr despite adding only four ships to the fleet. And no more F22P's. If we have that kind of money I would presume PN will go for couple of Type 55D Destroyers as and when they will become available. Those are, at least on paper as off now, quite a handful for any navy to handle.

 

[Basel]

Details will be available in due time.

Will PN now upgrade F-22Ps with VLS?? What type and size, because it will be major structural changes will be needed which PN may not be able to do without Chinese help as hull integrity needed to be maintained.

The elevated deck appears approx 2.5m taller than the lower deck (comparing with the person standing in front of the FM-90N launcher).

As per @Basel, the ops room and mess lie just below which I believe will limit the size of the VLS which can be accommodated. This is the reason I have mentioned only Umkhonto (and other similar sized missiles) as the suggested F-22P SAM upgrade.

Umkhonto:

missile length=3.32m
missile diameter=0.18m
canister length=3.8m

LY-80N:

missile length=5m
missile diameter=0.34m
canister length=5.6m

So, for LY-80N, a VLS with length > 5.6m will have to be installed.

I am unaware of the length of old Chinese VLS, the new one is 7m long.
Regards!!




@denel
Provide some details of VLS used for Umkhonto.

What about DK-10/9??

 

[Tank131]

@AZADPAKISTAN2009 there is no way these ships will stay in the fleet with the arrival of MILGEM AND 054A. They will and should be retired. They are not capable ofuch of anything and refitting them is very cost prohibitive. Just operating them is a pain for PN. Their was an interview of on of the former Naval Chief who said one F-22P has the capability of the entire T-21 fleet. That should tell you the futility of keeping them running. They werent bad ships, just too old. Would you keep F-7p flying when F-16 and JF-17 are flying around?

 

[pzfz]

Type 21s, even if they were young, couldn't handle the daydreams azadpakistan2009 is mentioning. Fragile, aluminum based, and would quickly get top-heavy.

F22Ps have no room for a strike-length VLS below deck. This should've been thought of before they were ordered: Can these ships handle future technologies structurally? They do however have the ability to install smaller vls (umkhonto/barak style) or protruding larger VLS that would sit just below the current 8 cell launcher. Have they thought about putting the VLS sams in the back/sides a la the Dutch Karel Doormans? Danish modules? etc...and instead use the forward space for a pdms/ciws like the seaRAM or its Chinese equivalents?

 

[YeBeWarned]

They will be retired as PN retired PNS Babur and Badr despite adding only four ships to the fleet. And no more F22P's. If we have that kind of money I would presume PN will go for couple of Type 55D Destroyers as and when they will become available. Those are, at least on paper as off now, quite a handful for any navy to handle.

wouldn't it be better to order 4 additional Type 54(B) ?

 

[Aamir Hussain]

wouldn't it be better to order 4 additional Type 54(B) ?

Google Type 55 and you will get you answer. 64 Cell VLS between A turret and Bridge, and further 64 Cell VLS aft of second smoke stack! With two helos and an integrated mast and Active Phased Array Radar. Plus 2 x FL3000N and 2 x 30mm CWIS 2 x 20mm Auto canons. The VLS have the capability to launch HQ-16, HQ-9, YJ-18 LACM/Anti ship CM, TU-18 rocket assisted torp., YJ-83 Anti Ship Cruise Missile both through hot and cold launch methods!!!

Full Scale mock-up spied upon in Wuhan Naval Testing Center with Hull and superstructure sections being built, as we speak, at the Jiangnan Naval Shipyard!!

Now there is what we call a Naval enthusiasts "Wet Dream!!!"

 

[Rashid Mahmood]

Will PN now upgrade F-22Ps with VLS?? What type and size, because it will be major structural changes will be needed which PN may not be able to do without Chinese help as hull integrity needed to be maintained.

Details of the upgrades are being worked out at NHQ.
I cannot comment any further.

However, PN is capable of major structural modifications as the 4th F-22 was built at KSEW.

 

[CHACHA"G"]

First on T-21 , they are old instead wasting money on them spend that money on F-22 , We can add VLS to them and other more advance systems that will make them very deadly in their weight and class frigates (but of course with limitation) . We can use those H-L on our T-33 boats.
PN buying Coverts and Medium seize Frigates from China , What my demand and wish is VLS in both , Coverts with VLS .
Dear members 8 to 10 T-54s and 8 to 10 Coverts with VLS are very good numbers for us . I only wish in future PN go for T-52 Destroyer , A medium size ship with more VLS and with better Air and Sea protection , They can be leading (Flag) Ships.
We can not match India in numbers , even if we spend all of our defence money on Navy, Better option for us is to have 8 to 10 coverts , 8 to 10 T-54s , 4 F-22s , 6 to 8 OPVs , and 4 T-52s(near future) with 3 AG-90s Subs , 8 from China and 4 more from any western country in near Future total 15 .
Above is decent Navy , Navy of Nuclear Power and A force which can defend and attack on same time. Yes it will take time and Money , I m happy we are going in right direction.

 

[ARMalik]

Type 21 are important because PN needs ships in decent numbers - it is as simple as that. Type 21 can be used for a variety of purposes other then being front line ships. PN should find ways to upgrade these ships as economically as possible so that they can serve for an extra 10-years.