Mid-life upgrade for F22P

[Aamir Hussain]

Type 21 are important because PN needs ships in decent numbers - it is as simple as that. Type 21 can be used for a variety of purposes other then being front line ships. PN should find ways to upgrade these ships as economically as possible so that they can serve for an extra 10-years.

I wish it was as simple as that! Different members have put forward various reasons for not keeping these ships around any longer. I will try to summarize them point wise:

1. Age: Two ships stricken off Babur and Badr, both commissioned in 74'. 42 Years of Service!! Latest ship to be commissioned was Tipu Sultan in 1978 ... now 40 years of service. After the advent of Type 54A around 2021, the latest ship would have had 42 years of service! Shah Jahan is about to be stricken off as it was commissioned in 1972. I guess the delay has been due to FFG-7 deal not panning out and the Milgem Deal has taken longer to materialize.
2. Ability to absorb additional weapons, sensors: This was a commercial design with limited capacity for upgrade. For example check the distance between the bridge and the A turret and the forecastle. Very little space to do anything. RN retired these boats due to structural issues but also due to their limited capacity for upgrades. They were inducted as a stopgap measure until the Broadsword class was available. They were the "in-between" Leander and Broadsword classes.
3. Cost of operations: The cost of operating each Type 21 in 1988 was roughly Rs. 50 million/month! Today it would be much higher given the inflation. This cost does not include refit costs that have gone up with age. Furthermore, both Gas turbines engines of Tyne and Olympus types are now longer produced. Other spares are hard to get by. These ships are the only COGOG engines being operated by PN which has its own challenges.

I hope this helps explain why PN retired the first two and why the others will be retired too once the Type 54A join the fleet.

 

[khanasifm]

I wish it was as simple as that! Different members have put forward various reasons for not keeping these ships around any longer. I will try to summarize them point wise:

1. Age: Two ships stricken off Babur and Badr, both commissioned in 74'. 42 Years of Service!! Latest ship to be commissioned was Tipu Sultan in 1978 ... now 40 years of service. After the advent of Type 54A around 2021, the latest ship would have had 42 years of service! Shah Jahan is about to be stricken off as it was commissioned in 1972. I guess the delay has been due to FFG-7 deal not panning out and the Milgem Deal has taken longer to materialize.
2. Ability to absorb additional weapons, sensors: This was a commercial design with limited capacity for upgrade. For example check the distance between the bridge and the A turret and the forecastle. Very little space to do anything. RN retired these boats due to structural issues but also due to their limited capacity for upgrades. They were inducted as a stopgap measure until the Broadsword class was available. They were the "in-between" Leander and Broadsword classes.
3. Cost of operations: The cost of operating each Type 21 in 1988 was roughly Rs. 50 million/month! Today it would be much higher given the inflation. This cost does not include refit costs that have gone up with age. Furthermore, both Gas turbines engines of Tyne and Olympus types are now longer produced. Other spares are hard to get by. These ships are the only COGOG engines being operated by PN which has its own challenges.

I hope this helps explain why PN retired the first two and why the others will be retired too once the Type 54A join the fleet.

Recent decommissioned one of type 21 stripped off of weapons system and refurbished /painted in msa so will be turned over to msa

May be other eventually will be used for spares and additional platform by msa

 

[YeBeWarned]

Google Type 55 and you will get you answer. 64 Cell VLS between A turret and Bridge, and further 64 Cell VLS aft of second smoke stack! With two helos and an integrated mast and Active Phased Array Radar. Plus 2 x FL3000N and 2 x 30mm CWIS 2 x 20mm Auto canons. The VLS have the capability to launch HQ-16, HQ-9, YJ-18 LACM/Anti ship CM, TU-18 rocket assisted torp., YJ-83 Anti Ship Cruise Missile both through hot and cold launch methods!!!

Full Scale mock-up spied upon in Wuhan Naval Testing Center with Hull and superstructure sections being built, as we speak, at the Jiangnan Naval Shipyard!!

Now there is what we call a Naval enthusiasts "Wet Dream!!!"

its highly depends on the condition of our economy , can we even afford 2 Type 55 ? not just the ship itself but the operational/Maintenance cost will be so much .. Type 54 is a standard Frigate and it should be in numbers to make PN back bone , as for DDG's we can buy as per our needs .

 

[Dreamer.]

If anything deserves an upgrade it would have to be the UK frigates we have in our fleet

I feel that we need to MLU these older frigates , Modernized the sensors
and upgrade the SAMs on ships


Some Anti Ship Missiles in rear would be fantastic
Would be eager to see these two System upgrade on Ship

Don't see why a new radar cannot be purchased and added as well

Type 21 are important because PN needs ships in decent numbers - it is as simple as that. Type 21 can be used for a variety of purposes other then being front line ships. PN should find ways to upgrade these ships as economically as possible so that they can serve for an extra 10-years.

Sometimes one wishes there was a "no thanks" icon aswell.

 

[monitor]

We missed @Penguin inn this healthy discussion .

 

[Tank131]

Google Type 55 and you will get you answer. 64 Cell VLS between A turret and Bridge, and further 64 Cell VLS aft of second smoke stack! With two helos and an integrated mast and Active Phased Array Radar. Plus 2 x FL3000N and 2 x 30mm CWIS 2 x 20mm Auto canons. The VLS have the capability to launch HQ-16, HQ-9, YJ-18 LACM/Anti ship CM, TU-18 rocket assisted torp., YJ-83 Anti Ship Cruise Missile both through hot and cold launch methods!!!

Full Scale mock-up spied upon in Wuhan Naval Testing Center with Hull and superstructure sections being built, as we speak, at the Jiangnan Naval Shipyard!!

Now there is what we call a Naval enthusiasts "Wet Dream!!!"

Wet Dream is right... Look at the cost to acquire and operate. PN will not operate a warship larger than 5000t in the next 10-15 years. Cant afford it and doesnt need it.

We missed @Penguin inn this healthy discussion .

Anyone know why he is no longer posting??

 

[Rafi]

Wet Dream is right... Look at the cost to acquire and operate. PN will not operate a warship larger than 5000t in the next 10-15 years. Cant afford it and doesnt need it.



Anyone know why he is no longer posting??

From my information the PN is interested in fleet Flagships and the plan is for a decade from now to include fleetwide air defence ships

 

[Armchair]

2 used 052s sound more realistic. 55 is actually a cruiser, greater than 10000 tons

 

[Tank131]

2 used 052s sound more realistic. 55 is actually a cruiser, greater than 10000 tons

Agreed. 052s would be ideal size for PN but they are a good 10-15yrs away IF PAKISTAN CAN KEEP ITS ECONOMY UP TRENDING.

In the mean time, PN should try as best it can to update the F-22P with a 16 cells vls and a quad packed missile as well as 6 HQ-10/FL-3000N missiles on each Type 730 CIWS. They along with 4 MIGLEM and 4 Type 054A will be a good bulwark for the surface fleet.

 

[Armchair]

Agreed. 052s would be ideal size for PN but they are a good 10-15yrs away IF PAKISTAN CAN KEEP ITS ECONOMY UP TRENDING.

In the mean time, PN should try as best it can to update the F-22P with a 16 cells vls and a quad packed missile as well as 6 HQ-10/FL-3000N missiles on each Type 730 CIWS. They along with 4 MIGLEM and 4 Type 054A will be a good bulwark for the surface fleet.

I actually disagree. I think PN should go for corvettes - 1000 - 1500 tons. For defending the limited EEZ there is no need for anything more. Build a JF-17 / AK of the seas.

 

[denel]

I wish it was as simple as that! Different members have put forward various reasons for not keeping these ships around any longer. I will try to summarize them point wise:

1. Age: Two ships stricken off Babur and Badr, both commissioned in 74'. 42 Years of Service!! Latest ship to be commissioned was Tipu Sultan in 1978 ... now 40 years of service. After the advent of Type 54A around 2021, the latest ship would have had 42 years of service! Shah Jahan is about to be stricken off as it was commissioned in 1972. I guess the delay has been due to FFG-7 deal not panning out and the Milgem Deal has taken longer to materialize.
2. Ability to absorb additional weapons, sensors: This was a commercial design with limited capacity for upgrade. For example check the distance between the bridge and the A turret and the forecastle. Very little space to do anything. RN retired these boats due to structural issues but also due to their limited capacity for upgrades. They were inducted as a stopgap measure until the Broadsword class was available. They were the "in-between" Leander and Broadsword classes.
3. Cost of operations: The cost of operating each Type 21 in 1988 was roughly Rs. 50 million/month! Today it would be much higher given the inflation. This cost does not include refit costs that have gone up with age. Furthermore, both Gas turbines engines of Tyne and Olympus types are now longer produced. Other spares are hard to get by. These ships are the only COGOG engines being operated by PN which has its own challenges.

I hope this helps explain why PN retired the first two and why the others will be retired too once the Type 54A join the fleet.

You must be joking.... Babur is still around? I was given a tour of it back in 1982 when 4 of these - visited Dar-es-salam. Alamgir/Badr/Babur/Shah Jehan if I recall correctly - but these were destroyers - Gearing class.

 

[Tank131]

I actually disagree. I think PN should go for corvettes - 1000 - 1500 tons. For defending the limited EEZ there is no need for anything more. Build a JF-17 / AK of the seas.

Do you mean no type 054a or no upgrade of F-22P? As far as 052,my point is that is the most they should get, but not before 10-15 years. Regarding corvettes, the first thing you need to determine is what you are actually patrolling for. Are you talking patrol for IN ships and sub or anti-narco/piracy patrols.

If we are talking patrolling for IN ships (ie a military role) then a corvette based on an enlarged Azmat or a P18N/Type 056 would be ideal modified with PN specific systems such as 4-6Harba, Turkish CMS (for fleet unity), a towed array sonar, and ASW chopper amd a Smart S mk2 or longer range air surveillance radar. Rather than main gun I would put 2 CIWS (1 in front and one in back) with 6 HQ-10 on each.

If we are talking about anti-crime/piracy/narco roles, then you need more mpv like the 1500t Chinese MPVs PMSA are acquiring or 1900t OPV from Damen.

You must be joking.... Babur is still around? I was given a tour of it back in 1982 when 4 of these - visited Dar-es-salam. Alamgir/Badr/Babur/Shah Jehan if I recall correctly - but these were destroyers - Gearing class.

Tariq, Nazim, Taimur, Tippu Sultan, Shah Jahan were the Gearing class destroyers me names were reused for some of the Type 21 Amazons (Badr, Shah Jahan, Tariq, Babur, and Khaibar) the Badr and Babur were decommissioned.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

You must be joking.... Babur is still around? I was given a tour of it back in 1982 when 4 of these - visited Dar-es-salam. Alamgir/Badr/Babur/Shah Jehan if I recall correctly - but these were destroyers - Gearing class.

Same names but different ship class now...Type 21 Amazon Class Frigates. Gearing's of FRAM program were stricken off in late eighties.

Recent decommissioned one of type 21 stripped off of weapons system and refurbished /painted in msa so will be turned over to msa

May be other eventually will be used for spares and additional platform by msa

It is used as floating HQ of PMSA as fas the old gearing class destroyer was used. So technically no use as warship.

its highly depends on the condition of our economy , can we even afford 2 Type 55 ? not just the ship itself but the operational/Maintenance cost will be so much .. Type 54 is a standard Frigate and it should be in numbers to make PN back bone , as for DDG's we can buy as per our needs .

Pun was intended for those whose wish lists keep on expanding......on and on. If we are dreaming then let us dream big. Each Type 55 costs around US$1.25 billion! One has been completed, One under fitting out, four under various stages of construction. Eight planned in all. The program was started in 2014! Pretty fast paced construction. The only thing that is lacking is the ASuW suite. That has been the weak point of Chinese ships and this is where US subs have an edge as they have the quietest boats around. Otherwise a fantastic platform, upthere with the best.

Wet Dream is right... Look at the cost to acquire and operate. PN will not operate a warship larger than 5000t in the next 10-15 years. Cant afford it and doesnt need it.



Anyone know why he is no longer posting??

As explained pun intended! Some of the posters here just live in Lala land!

 

[Armchair]

Do you mean no type 054a or no upgrade of F-22P? As far as 052,my point is that is the most they should get, but not before 10-15 years. Regarding corvettes, the first thing you need to determine is what you are actually patrolling for. Are you talking patrol for IN ships and sub or anti-narco/piracy patrols.

If we are talking patrolling for IN ships (ie a military role) then a corvette based on an enlarged Azmat or a P18N/Type 056 would be ideal modified with PN specific systems such as 4-6Harba, Turkish CMS (for fleet unity), a towed array sonar, and ASW chopper amd a Smart S mk2 or longer range air surveillance radar. Rather than main gun I would put 2 CIWS (1 in front and one in back) with 6 HQ-10 on each.

If we are talking about anti-crime/piracy/narco roles, then you need more mpv like the 1500t Chinese MPVs PMSA are acquiring or 1900t OPV from Damen.


Tariq, Nazim, Taimur, Tippu Sultan, Shah Jahan were the Gearing class destroyers me names were reused for some of the Type 21 Amazons (Badr, Shah Jahan, Tariq, Babur, and Khaibar) the Badr and Babur were decommissioned.

Hi Tank, I think enough Type 54A, this number is okay. Upgrade of F-22P should be minimal to moderate, not extensive. Minor upgrade, maybe 8-16 VLS is possible.

I believe that a 1000-1500 ton corvette should be the mainstay of PN, ideally. 10-20 ships.
Neither the hull of Azmat nor Type 56 is suitable for a variety of reasons.

You are patrolling the extended A2D area - basically Pakistani waters. Ensuring IN cannot get to attack the coast. Some of the suggestions you made sound excellent. I'd add:
Turkish ASW systems, local towed array
8x Harbah
Korkut in the A position
Local PDMS
Probably a version if not every ship, that has an 8x or 16x VLS

Perhaps a few could have telescopic hangars and a chopper. But I would like to see a good number of them without hangars or choppers.

Here is my thinking - since they are supporting operations relatively close to shore - they should each be assigned a shore-based UCAV that will fly to their location but be based on land. Each ship should have 2 so there is constant coverage.

Being shore based would significantly simplify operations.

This should be the standard ship of the PN and should also be an export item.

I have some more wilder ideas - like a kite-type towed airborne RWR / passive / active radar. Not sure why no one has thought of that, maybe for good reasons!

 

[Tank131]

Hi Tank, I think enough Type 54A, this number is okay. Upgrade of F-22P should be minimal to moderate, not extensive. Minor upgrade, maybe 8-16 VLS is possible.

I believe that a 1000-1500 ton corvette should be the mainstay of PN, ideally. 10-20 ships.
Neither the hull of Azmat nor Type 56 is suitable for a variety of reasons.

You are patrolling the extended A2D area - basically Pakistani waters. Ensuring IN cannot get to attack the coast. Some of the suggestions you made sound excellent. I'd add:
Turkish ASW systems, local towed array
8x Harbah
Korkut in the A position
Local PDMS
Probably a version if not every ship, that has an 8x or 16x VLS

Perhaps a few could have telescopic hangars and a chopper. But I would like to see a good number of them without hangars or choppers.

Here is my thinking - since they are supporting operations relatively close to shore - they should each be assigned a shore-based UCAV that will fly to their location but be based on land. Each ship should have 2 so there is constant coverage.

Being shore based would significantly simplify operations.

This should be the standard ship of the PN and should also be an export item.

I have some more wilder ideas - like a kite-type towed airborne RWR / passive / active radar. Not sure why no one has thought of that, maybe for good reasons!

I think any corvette in the 1000-1500 t range will not have a vls worth it unless that is for umkhonto or VT-1. I think for sheer survival the 12 hq-10 missiles on 2 CIWS (6 each) is sufficient. If you are serious about area denial for sub hunting, then u need to have a true ASW like Z-9c, otherwise you may experiment with a rotary UCAV like Sky Saker H300 but i think these are too small for meaningful ASW duty. As such most would need to have hangars like the P18N NNS Centenary (Nigeria) for a medium sized chopper for ASR and ASW.

I would have actually preferred a turkish assisted variant of P18N, though enlarged from 1800t to 2000t instead of Ada. Give it the C28A treatment (move the smokestacks/exhaust to the waterline to decrease RCS/Infrared visibility and free up deck space, fit it with a turkish cms, sonar amd towed array as well as a Smart S mk2, married to Chinese and Pakistani weapons allowing for 8 AShM, ship and towed sonar, a medium chopper (likely Z-9C), a PDMS/CIWS/combo of the two above the hangar, and possibly an 8 cell VLS where the smokestack used to be for something in the class Umkhonto and you have a good Surface and Sub killer corvette. The Nigerians paid $42M for their P-18Ns and the proposed corvette, even if costing $150M, would be more cost effective with greater survivability than Ada (which is $300M per unit). This is true for Ada, not necessarily I-class.