Mid-life upgrade for F22P

[Armchair]

I think any corvette in the 1000-1500 t range will not have a vls worth it unless that is for umkhonto or VT-1. I think for sheer survival the 12 hq-10 missiles on 2 CIWS (6 each) is sufficient. If you are serious about area denial for sub hunting, then u need to have a true ASW like Z-9c, otherwise you may experiment with a rotary UCAV like Sky Saker H300 but i think these are too small for meaningful ASW duty. As such most would need to have hangars like the P18N NNS Centenary (Nigeria) for a medium sized chopper for ASR and ASW.

I would have actually preferred a turkish assisted variant of P18N, though enlarged from 1800t to 2000t instead of Ada. Give it the C28A treatment (move the smokestacks/exhaust to the waterline to decrease RCS/Infrared visibility and free up deck space, fit it with a turkish cms, sonar amd towed array as well as a Smart S mk2, married to Chinese and Pakistani weapons allowing for 8 AShM, ship and towed sonar, a medium chopper (likely Z-9C), a PDMS/CIWS/combo of the two above the hangar, and possibly an 8 cell VLS where the smokestack used to be for something in the class Umkhonto and you have a good Surface and Sub killer corvette. The Nigerians paid $42M for their P-18Ns and the proposed corvette, even if costing $150M, would be more cost effective with greater survivability than Ada (which is $300M per unit). This is true for Ada, not necessarily I-class.

I would like your opinion and perhaps @Aamir Hussain 's opinion on what the specific difference is between a P-3C doing ASW and a Z-9 doing ASW is.

Obviously the P-3C uses a MAD, while a Z-9 uses a towed sonar system. We have also seen that the US used the S-3 Viking. Technology has also miniaturized over time.

Is it not possible to have a S-3 type ASW capability on a UCAV? What are the pros and cons for this as compared to a Z-9?

You could have localized control over the UCAV using the corvette's C4I.

This is important for me, as the cost of making a corvette without a helicopter is considerably less than the cost of one with a helicopter. Also, it saves a lot of critical space, weight, need for personnel, etc.

Isn't it enough for such a corvette to have a solid ASW sonar? A Towed sonar? An ASW capable UCAV? Why must it have a helicopter without which it is not useful? Aren't there enough helicopters anyways in the Ada? The Damen boats? The F-22Ps? The 54As?

 

[denel]

Do you mean no type 054a or no upgrade of F-22P? As far as 052,my point is that is the most they should get, but not before 10-15 years. Regarding corvettes, the first thing you need to determine is what you are actually patrolling for. Are you talking patrol for IN ships and sub or anti-narco/piracy patrols.

If we are talking patrolling for IN ships (ie a military role) then a corvette based on an enlarged Azmat or a P18N/Type 056 would be ideal modified with PN specific systems such as 4-6Harba, Turkish CMS (for fleet unity), a towed array sonar, and ASW chopper amd a Smart S mk2 or longer range air surveillance radar. Rather than main gun I would put 2 CIWS (1 in front and one in back) with 6 HQ-10 on each.

If we are talking about anti-crime/piracy/narco roles, then you need more mpv like the 1500t Chinese MPVs PMSA are acquiring or 1900t OPV from Damen.


Tariq, Nazim, Taimur, Tippu Sultan, Shah Jahan were the Gearing class destroyers me names were reused for some of the Type 21 Amazons (Badr, Shah Jahan, Tariq, Babur, and Khaibar) the Badr and Babur were decommissioned.

Thank you to both who posted it. The 2nd ship i visited was Tariq; Babur I think was not Gearing class Fram II destroyer back then - County class if memory is right?

 

[Tank131]

I would like your opinion and perhaps @Aamir Hussain 's opinion on what the specific difference is between a P-3C doing ASW and a Z-9 doing ASW is.

Obviously the P-3C uses a MAD, while a Z-9 uses a towed sonar system. We have also seen that the US used the S-3 Viking. Technology has also miniaturized over time.

Is it not possible to have a S-3 type ASW capability on a UCAV? What are the pros and cons for this as compared to a Z-9?

You could have localized control over the UCAV using the corvette's C4I.

This is important for me, as the cost of making a corvette without a helicopter is considerably less than the cost of one with a helicopter. Also, it saves a lot of critical space, weight, need for personnel, etc.

Isn't it enough for such a corvette to have a solid ASW sonar? A Towed sonar? An ASW capable UCAV? Why must it have a helicopter without which it is not useful? Aren't there enough helicopters anyways in the Ada? The Damen boats? The F-22Ps? The 54As?

So the ASW helis use dipping sonars (essentially large sonar mics) to detect subs. That system im sure could be integrated on a UAV like Sky SAKER H 300, AV500W, (or maybe something larger) but more than the dipping sonar, a multirole chooper gives you other capabilities. It can not only be the platform for the sensor but also the weapon delivery platform, able to fire torpedoes and in some cases AShMs. Additionally the give you significantly enhanced ASR capabilities which is very import if these corvettes are mean for "Patrolling" the EEZ. In crisis situations, given that they are already on patrol, they or their choppers will be first on scene in case of accidents and piracy situations. Having a chopper in these situations can be invaluable. Remember, you wanted them to be a patrol, scouts the eyes and ears, not the hammer and anvil. They are meant to be flexible, cost effective, and fast. They can help in pitched battles but relying on cover from other larger units/vessels.

 

[Armchair]

So the ASW helis use dipping sonars (essentially large sonar mics) to detect subs. That system im sure could be integrated on a UAV like Sky SAKER H 300, AV500W, (or maybe something larger) but more than the dipping sonar, a multirole chooper gives you other capabilities. It can not only be the platform for the sensor but also the weapon delivery platform, able to fire torpedoes and in some cases AShMs. Additionally the give you significantly enhanced ASR capabilities which is very import if these corvettes are mean for "Patrolling" the EEZ. In crisis situations, given that they are already on patrol, they or their choppers will be first on scene in case of accidents and piracy situations. Having a chopper in these situations can be invaluable. Remember, you wanted them to be a patrol, scouts the eyes and ears, not the hammer and anvil. They are meant to be flexible, cost effective, and fast. They can help in pitched battles but relying on cover from other larger units/vessels.

So let me get this straight. Helicopters can provide:

1. Detection of submarines
2. delivery of torpedoes / sonobouys etc
3. Delivery of AShMs
4. ASR

Given that a UCAV could do all of these, there seems no reason why a UCAV can't replace a helicopter. European and Western powers, even China in the South China Sea, need their warships to field this capability far from shore. Pakistan does not - it needs to field this capability near to shore. This means that a shore-based UCAV can be ideal. They can link up to corvettes on the surface and do the same job.

Remember, we are talking about combat against the IN, not piracy issues, that is a different department.

UCAVs can be eyes and ears, in fact that is the most competitive function of UAVs and UCAVs to date, and they do that better than any other platform.

I'm not seeing the argument here on why helicopters cannot be replaced reasonably well by UCAVs for the given role and mission of the corvettes being envisioned.

 

[Tank131]

Again ASR (Air Sea/Search rescue) cannot be performed by any UAV that I know of. They can search and track but cannot initiate a rescue. Furthermore, the largest helicopter UAV that China currently has can carry 4 small atgm, doubt it can carry light torpedoes..

 

[Darth Vader]

Problem with Pakistan navy is that india has superior quality and quantity
And with simple quality or Vice verse you cant fight both they need out of the box thinking

Pakistan could develop low tonnage ( 700 - 1200 ) ships with specific role anti sub , anti air and General and they work as one unit pak can go for quality and with quantity in decent price as it will give them much flexibility

As Pakistan keep these boats close to shores and give bigger ships more room to do there jobs
As these ships are close to land Navy can use its land bassed assets and these small ships in big number can be area denial weapons as enemy force will have to take out a large force which can protect it self from any kind of attack

It will also bring life to ship building capabilities of Pakistan , if they go with few private companies it will help build infrastructure for them keep price down and they can go for bigger ships in future

And otherwise can go for ship building for private sector not only that it will help building pakistani steel and metal industry providing jobs and experience

Pakistan needs major work in UAV and UUV as they can act as dummies to divert enemy

 

[ARMalik]

Regarding comments on Type-21's modification and life extensions, and some members insistence that it will never happen or it is waste of time conveniently forget the fact the PN has over the years done major modifications and upgrades to these ships. There is no reason why further improvements cannot be done. PN needs numbers and together with the current procurement plans for ADA, 054s, local ships, if these ships can be improved to give them an extra 10 years that would give PN a solid boost in numbers. It is an option worth pursing.

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/d-tariq.htm

http://babriet.tripod.com/navy/stat/type21.htm

 

[Cookie Monster]

Wet Dream is right... Look at the cost to acquire and operate. PN will not operate a warship larger than 5000t in the next 10-15 years. Cant afford it and doesnt need it.



Anyone know why he is no longer posting??

Keeping in view the economies of Pak/India and the budgets involved for both navies...PN will be more focused on A2AD just to keep India at bay in the event of a war...

and u r right they wouldn't go for something like Type 55 for now...not for at least a decade or so. Such things can only be considered once the economy has vastly improved.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Problem with Pakistan navy is that india has superior quality and quantity
And with simple quality or Vice verse you cant fight both they need out of the box thinking

Pakistan could develop low tonnage ( 700 - 1200 ) ships with specific role anti sub , anti air and General and they work as one unit pak can go for quality and with quantity in decent price as it will give them much flexibility

As Pakistan keep these boats close to shores and give bigger ships more room to do there jobs
As these ships are close to land Navy can use its land bassed assets and these small ships in big number can be area denial weapons as enemy force will have to take out a large force which can protect it self from any kind of attack

It will also bring life to ship building capabilities of Pakistan , if they go with few private companies it will help build infrastructure for them keep price down and they can go for bigger ships in future

And otherwise can go for ship building for private sector not only that it will help building pakistani steel and metal industry providing jobs and experience

Pakistan needs major work in UAV and UUV as they can act as dummies to divert enemy

Out of the box thinking that PN should consider...

As u can see these boats made a formation of an aircraft carrier...if these can be further developed to use this as a strategy. Then hundreds of these boats can advance towards the enemy giving a radar signature(in terms of this kind of formation) and also mimic electronic signature consistent with a frigate/destroyer/etc. whichever it is they are posing for as a decoy. With this strategy one can mimic the signature of various warships making the enemy think that it's a whole battle group instead of just one warship.

...this can be used in two ways...one is to fool the enemy to follow/intercept/engage this group of warships...thinning out enemy assets so they can't all concentrate on actual PN assets...thus keeping the enemy guessing by creating a fog of war.

Secondly this strategy can be used to draw out enemy fire. A submarine can work with these unmanned boats...where the sensors/radars on board these unmanned boats are used to pass the information on to the submarine about enemy position. Also as the enemy ships will be using their radars/sensors to track/engage these unmanned boats(mimicking the signature of frigates/corvettes), the passive sensors on the submarine can also pick up enemy positions that way. While the enemy ships are busy engaging these unmanned boats...the submarine can engage those enemy warships and get out of the area quickly.

Also unmanned boats can disperse when fired upon...even in the event of a successful hit by an anti ship missile...that's only one unmanned boat down per missile.

Another strategy Pak can use is
https://www.popsci.com/great-underwater-wall-robots-chinese-exhibit-shows-off-sea-drones

This concept in a net centric environment combined with the data provided by other assets will paint a complete picture of Pak's territorial waters. Any enemy intrusion will be detected and PN/PAF can fire from any appropriate asset...be it coastal batteries, or PAF jets for maritime role, or PN warships...the missiles can be guided with sensors embedded on the sea floor, UUVs(with their sensors), UAVs in the sky, MPAs, etc.

 

[Armchair]

Again ASR (Air Sea/Search rescue) cannot be performed by any UAV that I know of. They can search and track but cannot initiate a rescue. Furthermore, the largest helicopter UAV that China currently has can carry 4 small atgm, doubt it can carry light torpedoes..

Rescue is a peripheral requirement. Not a core competency. There are just any number of other assets that can take care of that including PMSA.

So it basically boils down to your point about a UAV not having enough payload. Which is a fair point. So I assume if you build a UAV with enough payload, you're going to be happy with that. Correct?

Problem with Pakistan navy is that india has superior quality and quantity
And with simple quality or Vice verse you cant fight both they need out of the box thinking

Pakistan could develop low tonnage ( 700 - 1200 ) ships with specific role anti sub , anti air and General and they work as one unit pak can go for quality and with quantity in decent price as it will give them much flexibility

As Pakistan keep these boats close to shores and give bigger ships more room to do there jobs
As these ships are close to land Navy can use its land bassed assets and these small ships in big number can be area denial weapons as enemy force will have to take out a large force which can protect it self from any kind of attack

It will also bring life to ship building capabilities of Pakistan , if they go with few private companies it will help build infrastructure for them keep price down and they can go for bigger ships in future

And otherwise can go for ship building for private sector not only that it will help building pakistani steel and metal industry providing jobs and experience

Pakistan needs major work in UAV and UUV as they can act as dummies to divert enemy

Precisely. Glad I'm not the only one thinking about this.

 

[Aamir Hussain]

Thank you to both who posted it. The 2nd ship i visited was Tariq; Babur I think was not Gearing class Fram II destroyer back then - County class if memory is right?

Yes Babur was County Class Guided Missile Destroyer (Without the missiles) Ex HMS London. Was only used as a training ship.

 

[Darth Vader]

Out of the box thinking that PN should consider...

As u can see these boats made a formation of an aircraft carrier...if these can be further developed to use this as a strategy. Then hundreds of these boats can advance towards the enemy giving a radar signature(in terms of this kind of formation) and also mimic electronic signature consistent with a frigate/destroyer/etc. whichever it is they are posing for as a decoy. With this strategy one can mimic the signature of various warships making the enemy think that it's a whole battle group instead of just one warship.

...this can be used in two ways...one is to fool the enemy to follow/intercept/engage this group of warships...thinning out enemy assets so they can't all concentrate on actual PN assets...thus keeping the enemy guessing by creating a fog of war.

Secondly this strategy can be used to draw out enemy fire. A submarine can work with these unmanned boats...where the sensors/radars on board these unmanned boats are used to pass the information on to the submarine about enemy position. Also as the enemy ships will be using their radars/sensors to track/engage these unmanned boats(mimicking the signature of frigates/corvettes), the passive sensors on the submarine can also pick up enemy positions that way. While the enemy ships are busy engaging these unmanned boats...the submarine can engage those enemy warships and get out of the area quickly.

Also unmanned boats can disperse when fired upon...even in the event of a successful hit by an anti ship missile...that's only one unmanned boat down per missile.

Another strategy Pak can use is
https://www.popsci.com/great-underwater-wall-robots-chinese-exhibit-shows-off-sea-drones

This concept in a net centric environment combined with the data provided by other assets will paint a complete picture of Pak's territorial waters. Any enemy intrusion will be detected and PN/PAF can fire from any appropriate asset...be it coastal batteries, or PAF jets for maritime role, or PN warships...the missiles can be guided with sensors embedded on the sea floor, UUVs(with their sensors), UAVs in the sky, MPAs, etc.

UUV and UAV are the future and unfortunately Pakistan used to be the game changer in deploying moder system ahead of its enemy's in neighbour countries thanks to uncle for SAM
But since 90s they are just catching up and tried to just survive

UUV and UAV are really good but prolem with them is how secure they are , pakistan army needs secure and modern network infrastructure that can attack and defend and provide protection to its assets
And i bet you give 20 years almost every developed country will be deploying similar bots ( UUV ) as they are much more cheaper , can cover large area , and engange enemy , be used as a decoy as you said , now its up to them what they want to do.

 

[Cookie Monster]

UUV and UAV are the future and unfortunately Pakistan used to be the game changer in deploying moder system ahead of its enemy's in neighbour countries thanks to uncle for SAM
But since 90s they are just catching up and tried to just survive

UUV and UAV are really good but prolem with them is how secure they are , pakistan army needs secure and modern network infrastructure that can attack and defend and provide protection to its assets
And i bet you give 20 years almost every developed country will be deploying similar bots ( UUV ) as they are much more cheaper , can cover large area , and engange enemy , be used as a decoy as you said , now its up to them what they want to do.

Pakistan doesn't have the kind of budget that is required to do R&D in these new and novel approaches. Only nations with massive GDPs can afford to research hundreds of different avenues...a majority of these just being learning experiences that may not be immediately usable for military purposes...but this way they stay ahead of the curve at least and tend to be net exporters.

A country like Pak(with its limited budget and facing a much bigger foe) can only hope to keep minimum deterrence. The good thing here is that China will be researching these things and Pak can acquire these things without much risk of sanctions. Pak can take advantage of that and introduce novel approaches(developed by China) in the subcontinent to even the odds in an asymmetric manner.

 

[Darth Vader]

Pakistan doesn't have the kind of budget that is required to do R&D in these new and novel approaches. Only nations with massive GDPs can afford to research hundreds of different avenues...a majority of these just being learning experiences that may not be immediately usable for military purposes...but this way they stay ahead of the curve at least and tend to be net exporters.

A country like Pak(with its limited budget and facing a much bigger foe) can only hope to keep minimum deterrence. The good thing here is that China will be researching these things and Pak can acquire these things without much risk of sanctions. Pak can take advantage of that and introduce novel approaches(developed by China) in the subcontinent to even the odds in an asymmetric manner.

Well fortunately these wont requires massive RD if you are talking about UAVs UUV a small rc boat is also UUV or UAV and pakistan do have few of the private companies working on drones if the private and army work together this small research will go long as its will not just help army but they will be able to sell private sector all around globe and best part about even if they do JV with china or not and able to make decent product which will be alot cheaper

You talked earlier network centric warfare you need a fast and secure network and currently will Pakistan make sure its safe ?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Upgrading of Type-21 UK ships would work as it is a cost effective solution for next 15 years Since Pakistan does not have enough surface ships in it's fleet

It would not make sense to retire the ships to bring down the count down from 9 ships to 4 again. It would be ill advised move.

The correct measure is maintain the present fleet size 9 surface ships

Existing Assets (9)

• 4 Type 021 (Mid Life , upgrade and Refurbishment)
• 4 F22P (Frigate)
• 1 OHP (Frigate)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Expected Arrival (8 Large , 9 Small Ships)

• 4 Type 053 (Frigate) (Under Construction)
• 4 Milgem or Istambul (Corvette Level)
• 2 Damen (Patrol) (Under Construction)
• 3 Swifts (Patrol)
• 4 Azmat Class Missile Boats ( 4th one being constructed)

Once the new orders arrive , it would make ideal sense to modernize the Type21
The Radar systems/Weapons system would be the only 2 elements

The ship already is a wonderful Anti Ship , platform with certain capabilities
Every thing in the ship can be modernized by local Labor force

It would be a good contract for Local Shipyard

Would imagine in 1.5 years the modernization would be completed for Type021

Integration of other weapon system similar to F22P would be trivial as the same systems are already used in our newer ships