Mid-life upgrade for F22P

[Tank131]

In 2007, the Swedes wanted to install 12 Umkhonto missiles each on 5 Visby Corvettes for a cost of $150M (meaning average cost of the system was ~$30M per ship. This contract was later canceled.

The Georgian military entered into a contract with France for MICA VL (land vased system for $25M. Not sure the numver of systems but this is a land based system so my suspicion is for naval it would cost approximately the $25-30M/ship. Given the 12km range vs 30 and the benefits of a potential 32 missile PDMS to go in the same VLS tubes i prefer Umkhonto to MICA VL, especially when considering the south africans are more likely to allow Pakistan to install the systems and marry them to Pakistani and potentially Turkish subsystems. Not sure if that will be politically possible between European and chinese partners.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...a-to-finalize-sam-system-buy-from-france.html

 

[Armchair]

If the Mica can be turned into a VLS, perhaps PN and NESCOM should look into developing something out of the BVRs available inhouse or through Chinese friends.

 

[Army research]

If the Mica can be turned into a VLS, perhaps PN and NESCOM should look into developing something out of the BVRs available inhouse or through Chinese friends.

I really hope they do, there was some work on anti air missiles in AWC in the past yet no more info on it , though they still might surprise us who knows , basic plan would be make a next gen ( ala meteor ) bvr, attach booster rocket to it ( to compensate for lack of momentum transferred by plane ) then place it in a cold launch canister , pair it to same software fire control radar as the plane it will be used on and the make the battery air defence command post data linked ( link 17) then you would have a decent range , maneuverable ( and stage booster and seeker ) SAM which can also be used in without giving SAM radar location to anti radiation missiles as due to Data link (made easier as it's same software and same missile the fighters will use ) you can use AWACs to light up targets with ground batteries just acting as missile launcher,
The main thing is however you need to have a really capable BVR and the range still might be less than 100 , however due to mass production of the same missile for Mainstay fighter, cost would decrease and data linking would make it really effective

 

[Armchair]

Since the R-darters are now time expired, you could refurbish the parts, wire them up, add a booster, canister, etc and have a cheap, recycled VLS. Since they wouldn't need to fly on a plane anymore, rather sit in a canister, you could have reasonable shelf-life.

It would be a great way to recycle and re-use PAF BVR AAMs. Whether R-Darters or PL-12s or whatever is hiding itself out there. Maybe even Aspides if real ToT was achieved for this "gift".

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I really hope they do, there was some work on anti air missiles in AWC in the past yet no more info on it , though they still might surprise us who knows , basic plan would be make a next gen ( ala meteor ) bvr, attach booster rocket to it ( to compensate for lack of momentum transferred by plane ) then place it in a cold launch canister , pair it to same software fire control radar as the plane it will be used on and the make the battery air defence command post data linked ( link 17) then you would have a decent range , maneuverable ( and stage booster and seeker ) SAM which can also be used in without giving SAM radar location to anti radiation missiles as due to Data link (made easier as it's same software and same missile the fighters will use ) you can use AWACs to light up targets with ground batteries just acting as missile launcher,
The main thing is however you need to have a really capable BVR and the range still might be less than 100 , however due to mass production of the same missile for Mainstay fighter, cost would decrease and data linking would make it really effective

It's worth noting that Denel is still continuing with the Marlin despite there being no clarity on local orders and the fact the company doesn't have a lot of resources to spend. The Marlin is meant to scale into a SAM too. It'd be interesting if we bankroll this while slowly pulling the core IP, facilities and expertise our way.

 

[Tank131]

If the Mica can be turned into a VLS, perhaps PN and NESCOM should look into developing something out of the BVRs available inhouse or through Chinese friends.

The SD-10 was actually turned into a 50km SAM called DK-10A. Reports were that it was to be the chinese equivalent of ESSM (not sure if its quad packable). Beyond that, while i like your idea of working with South African systems, but i think looking forward towards Marlin not backwards towards R-darter. Also work with them on C-RAM for naval and land use.

 

[Armchair]

The SD-10 was actually turned into a 50km SAM called DK-10A. Reports were that it was to be the chinese equivalent of ESSM (not sure if its quad packable). Beyond that, while i like your idea of working with South African systems, but i think looking forward towards Marlin not backwards towards R-darter. Also work with them on C-RAM for naval and land use.

I'm just trying to brain-storm thrifty ideas for a low-cost, numbers-focused "JF-17 of the seas" solution.

 

[Tank131]

I'm just trying to brain-storm thrifty ideas for a low-cost, numbers-focused "JF-17 of the seas" solution.

No, i actually like where u are going. My issue for Pak Military is that they have no imagination. That is why they dont come with solutions that are cost effective or forward thinking. They dont take the risks necessary to stay ahead of the curve. IF we look at Brazil and South Africa working together on missile projects, both countries and companies (Mectron and Denel, formerly Kentron) that have a lot working history with Pakistan, esp S Africa (Denel). Pakistan should have joined the A-darter program as a starter for its own A2A missile experience and its own 5th gen HOBS missile. It should try to join the Umkhonto and C-RAM programs and to link them into its own air defense network and develop experience and understanding in the SAM field. With Turkey there are a number of programs it should have tried to partake in (Atak, MALE UAV, MILGEM, Hisar etc). But Pakistan is happy being a consumer instead of a partner where it could help direct the direction if weapns designs. The projects where it actually partook as a partner have been very successful (JF-17 and Al-Khalid).

The biggest problem is limited private sector ventures. Lets face it, military men should not be running companies if ypu are looking for innovative ideas. They are bred to follow orders not create. PAC, NESCOM, AWC, HIT, ect. need to be partially/mostly privatized with a 51/49%split.

 

[Chimgathar]

Last year Russian Navy tested Tor M2KM Anti aircraft missile system on one of their frigates. Its range is 15Km. I dont know the current status of this project. I think such air defence system could be installed on PN F-22P without compromising structural stability. It seems the system can be installed and integrated as standalone, radar and computer systems could function parallel to existing radar systems. If some how we manage some hard cash we might get such system from Russia. Following photos & video are from Russian navy forum

 

[Tank131]

Another option for updating F-22P exchanging the Type 730 CIWS for the upcoming Pantsir-ME CIWS/PDMS. This takes twin gatling gun Kashtan and adds 8 Pantsir-57E6-E missiles which habe a 20km range. Two systems (in place of 2 Type 730) give 16 20km missiles (8 on each side of the ship) with 2 twin gun ciws (one on each side of the ship). Additionally put a 8, 12, or 16 cell Umkhonto-eir vls system in place of FM90 (upgrade to Umkhonto - R when ready).

 

[FuturePAF]

With Hyper-sonic Anti-Ship Cruise missile just around the bend, Pakistan should express an interest to China and its defense industry to develop a 30-45 km missile with high agility to engage the threat that would be small enough to allow the Type 054A and F-22P to fit two missiles in the cells that currently are used to house the HQ-16 missiles.

In Which case 8 Cells added on to the F-22P would be able to accommodate 16 modern air defense missiles.
the current HQ-9 and even the HQ-10 in the FL-3000N may not be enough.

The Turkish Hisar missiles or British Sea-Ceptor missiles should be the benchmarks to aim for, but at a decent discounted price to allow implementation not only on Export Frigates such as the F-22P but also China's own Type 56 Corvettes, Type 54A Frigates, and Type 52/55 Destroyers.

saving longer range missiles for far away engagements can only be done if commanders can be assured the closer in missiles will be reliable to knock out what ever is thrown at it in the last few seconds.

 

[MastanKhan]

No, i actually like where u are going. My issue for Pak Military is that they have no imagination. That is why they dont come with solutions that are cost effective or forward thinking. They dont take the risks necessary to stay ahead of the curve. IF we look at Brazil and South Africa working together on missile projects, both countries and companies (Mectron and Denel, formerly Kentron) that have a lot working history with Pakistan, esp S Africa (Denel). Pakistan should have joined the A-darter program as a starter for its own A2A missile experience and its own 5th gen HOBS missile. It should try to join the Umkhonto and C-RAM programs and to link them into its own air defense network and develop experience and understanding in the SAM field. With Turkey there are a number of programs it should have tried to partake in (Atak, MALE UAV, MILGEM, Hisar etc). But Pakistan is happy being a consumer instead of a partner where it could help direct the direction if weapns designs. The projects where it actually partook as a partner have been very successful (JF-17 and Al-Khalid).

The biggest problem is limited private sector ventures. Lets face it, military men should not be running companies if ypu are looking for innovative ideas. They are bred to follow orders not create. PAC, NESCOM, AWC, HIT, ect. need to be partially/mostly privatized with a 51/49%split.

Hi,

@denel would remember better than me---but if I a, not mistaken---pakistan might have had a share in building SA missiles in south africa and also had investment in exocet missiles as well--.

Some old dogs here who remember that should jump in---.

I believe that pakistan's investment was forced out---ie pakistan was forced to sell its share---someone correct me please---.

 

[denel]

Hi,

@denel would remember better than me---but if I a, not mistaken---pakistan might have had a share in building SA missiles in south africa and also had investment in exocet missiles as well--.

Some old dogs here who remember that should jump in---.

I believe that pakistan's investment was forced out---ie pakistan was forced to sell its share---someone correct me please---.

No, on the missile front there was no investment from Pak side. When they showed interest the programs were already nearly completion and orders had come thru.

 

[rana MRL]

Plans for the eventual mid life upgrade for the frigates purchased, are starting to be take effect, the most impressive of which is replacement of the legacy Anti Air missile system with the HQ16.

There is a space for a VLS where the FM90 is currently stored.

Other upgrades are in sensors both Radar and Sonar and also a new battle management system.

There is also a chance for FL3000N anti missile system to integrated as either a stand alone or with the CIWS.

New indigenous towed sonar could also be used.

Plans are still on paper and therefore could change, but we should hear about this in the next couple of years.

Aoa... can upgradation might be like tiger class model which CSOC shows in exhibition ...

 

[khanasifm]

Inducted in last 10 years and most of ships last 40-50 years I would not call it mid life but upgrade