Mid-life upgrade for F22P

[Tank131]

1

Let's agree to disagree sir

There is really no reason to think that Russia will not sell Pantsir M to Pakistan. They sell RD-93 directly, they sell Hind directly, they sell Mi-17 directly, they sell another CIWS for Azmat class directly (AK630). It strongly supported Pakistans entry into the SCO and is actively collaberating with Pakistan on the Afghan front and their goals directly align there. After Uri attack India pressured Russia regarding ties with Pakistan and Russia still went forward with military exercises and is actively involved in training exercises with Pakistani Army and Navy and signed a MoU earlier this month to deepen naval cooperation with PN. Additionally this is purely a defensive system and in doing so, Russia could end up with a sale of possibly 12 such system if Azmats AK630 is also replaced.

 

[syed_yusuf]

1


There is really no reason to think that Russia will not sell Pantsir M to Pakistan. They sell RD-93 directly, they sell Hind directly, they sell Mi-17 directly, they sell another CIWS for Azmat class directly (AK630). It strongly supported Pakistans entry into the SCO and is actively collaberating with Pakistan on the Afghan front and their goals directly align there. After Uri attack India pressured Russia regarding ties with Pakistan and Russia still went forward with military exercises and is actively involved in training exercises with Pakistani Army and Navy and signed a MoU earlier this month to deepen naval cooperation with PN. Additionally this is purely a defensive system and in doing so, Russia could end up with a sale of possibly 12 such system if Azmats AK630 is also replaced.

It is possible

 

[alee92nawaz]

1


There is really no reason to think that Russia will not sell Pantsir M to Pakistan. They sell RD-93 directly, they sell Hind directly, they sell Mi-17 directly, they sell another CIWS for Azmat class directly (AK630). It strongly supported Pakistans entry into the SCO and is actively collaberating with Pakistan on the Afghan front and their goals directly align there. After Uri attack India pressured Russia regarding ties with Pakistan and Russia still went forward with military exercises and is actively involved in training exercises with Pakistani Army and Navy and signed a MoU earlier this month to deepen naval cooperation with PN. Additionally this is purely a defensive system and in doing so, Russia could end up with a sale of possibly 12 such system if Azmats AK630 is also replaced.

I am skeptical if they will sell any significant piece of defebde equipment like SAMs or jets.

 

[Basel]

How about Knzhal or Tor-2M2KM for SR SAM with VLS capability instead of FL-3000??

It could be good for our FACs too.

https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....r-m2u-air-defence-missile-system-adms-russia/

 

[Tank131]

I am skeptical if they will sell any significant piece of defebde equipment like SAMs or jets.

The skepticism is understandable, but i think more than Russia's willingness to sell, Pakistan's ability to buy or its willing to invest in F-22P upgrades is more of the issue. I haven't heard of any desire from PN to actually invest in upgrades.

But for the sake of argument, lets say russia wouldnt sell, PN could still upgrade the existing 730s with 6 HJ-10/FL-3000N missiles and spend $25-32M for VLS system for 12-16 cell Umkhonto-eir launcher (35km) which would would fit on F-22P as the tiger class model clearly showed. If they didnt want to spend as much for VLS they could theoretically go for a navalized FM-3000 in launch boxes.

How about Knzhal or Tor-2M2KM for SR SAM with VLS capability instead of FL-3000??

View attachment 494606

It could be good for our FACs too.

https://thaimilitaryandasianregion....r-m2u-air-defence-missile-system-adms-russia/

The Kinzhal is designed for ships greater than 800t so it could work for the F-22P and it has greater numbers than the FL-3000N (Comes in 3 to 6 modules with 8 missiles of 12km each) so for a 3-4 module unit you could have 24 to 32 missiles, but the point for me was cost savings and the Kinzhal will require structural mods akin adding a VLS on the F-22P whereas the FL-3000N can just replace the FM-90 by changing the launcher but not need much changes below deck.

The Tor-2MKM could be fixed on top of the deck but only carries 8 missiles. Even with 2 units as depicted in your picture, it has fewer missiles than the FL-3000N (24 cells). Albeit the missiles are slightly lomger range (12km vs 9km).

In the case of the Azmat class, im not sure you have enough deck space for the Tor to be fixed anywhere. I think a better option would be to replace the twin 25mm cannon in the front with a Pantsir M which would give you twin 30mm gatling guns which are far better suited to engaging aerial targets than the 25mm cannons, and you will have eight 20 km missiles. And you could keep the AK630 in the back for added protection.

 

[syed_yusuf]

The skepticism is understandable, but i think more than Russia's willingness to sell, Pakistan's ability to buy or its willing to invest in F-22P upgrades is more of the issue. I haven't heard of any desire from PN to actually invest in upgrades.

But for the sake of argument, lets say russia wouldnt sell, PN could still upgrade the existing 730s with 6 HJ-10/FL-3000N missiles and spend $25-32M for VLS system for 12-16 cell Umkhonto-eir launcher (35km) which would would fit on F-22P as the tiger class model clearly showed. If they didnt want to spend as much for VLS they could theoretically go for a navalized FM-3000 in launch boxes.



The Kinzhal is designed for ships greater than 800t so it could work for the F-22P and it has greater numbers than the FL-3000N (Comes in 3 to 6 modules with 8 missiles of 12km each) so for a 3-4 module unit you could have 24 to 32 missiles, but the point for me was cost savings and the Kinzhal will require structural mods akin adding a VLS on the F-22P whereas the FL-3000N can just replace the FM-90 by changing the launcher but not need much changes below deck.

The Tor-2MKM could be fixed on top of the deck but only carries 8 missiles. Even with 2 units as depicted in your picture, it has fewer missiles than the FL-3000N (24 cells). Albeit the missiles are slightly lomger range (12km vs 9km).

In the case of the Azmat class, im not sure you have enough deck space for the Tor to be fixed anywhere. I think a better option would be to replace the twin 25mm cannon in the front with a Pantsir M which would give you twin 30mm gatling guns which are far better suited to engaging aerial targets than the 25mm cannons, and you will have eight 20 km missiles. And you could keep the AK630 in the back for added protection.

looking at real state in front of F-22P and considering weight, can we not install 2 FL-3000N instead of one

 

[Basel]

The skepticism is understandable, but i think more than Russia's willingness to sell, Pakistan's ability to buy or its willing to invest in F-22P upgrades is more of the issue. I haven't heard of any desire from PN to actually invest in upgrades.

But for the sake of argument, lets say russia wouldnt sell, PN could still upgrade the existing 730s with 6 HJ-10/FL-3000N missiles and spend $25-32M for VLS system for 12-16 cell Umkhonto-eir launcher (35km) which would would fit on F-22P as the tiger class model clearly showed. If they didnt want to spend as much for VLS they could theoretically go for a navalized FM-3000 in launch boxes.



The Kinzhal is designed for ships greater than 800t so it could work for the F-22P and it has greater numbers than the FL-3000N (Comes in 3 to 6 modules with 8 missiles of 12km each) so for a 3-4 module unit you could have 24 to 32 missiles, but the point for me was cost savings and the Kinzhal will require structural mods akin adding a VLS on the F-22P whereas the FL-3000N can just replace the FM-90 by changing the launcher but not need much changes below deck.

The Tor-2MKM could be fixed on top of the deck but only carries 8 missiles. Even with 2 units as depicted in your picture, it has fewer missiles than the FL-3000N (24 cells). Albeit the missiles are slightly lomger range (12km vs 9km).

In the case of the Azmat class, im not sure you have enough deck space for the Tor to be fixed anywhere. I think a better option would be to replace the twin 25mm cannon in the front with a Pantsir M which would give you twin 30mm gatling guns which are far better suited to engaging aerial targets than the 25mm cannons, and you will have eight 20 km missiles. And you could keep the AK630 in the back for added protection.

The newer version has 16km range, and with VLS capability it can cover 360 degrees of ship, so it's good SR-SAM specially the MKM version as it can be installed on any ship which have space available in emergency time and can be removed too.

 

[syed_yusuf]

The newer version has 16km range, and with VLS capability it can cover 360 degrees of ship, so it's good SR-SAM specially the MKM version as it can be installed on any ship which have space available in emergency time and can be removed too.

u r saying that fl-3000n newer version have 16KM range?

 

[Basel]

u r saying that fl-3000n newer version have 16KM range?

No, I m saying latest TOR-M2KM and Kinzhal has 16km range.

 

[randomradio]

How about Knzhal or Tor-2M2KM for SR SAM with VLS capability instead of FL-3000??

Since your adversary is the IN, you will need far more advanced SAMs on your ships. The Russians have made their stuff to beat slow moving AShMs that the West use, so most of the focus will be on detecting the threat rather than intercepting it.

But in your case, you will need far more expensive SAMs, like the VL-MICA-M or CAMM, where the missile has its own RF seeker and datalink.

So there's no point replacing the FL-3000 unless the upgrade is high end. Whether you pick the Tor or the FL-3000, it will only protect you from Uran and Harpoon and not the Klub and Brahmos.

If you really wish to fight the IN, then you will need the PAAMS at the minimum. Even the Chinese HQ-16 is obsolete.

 

[Tank131]

looking at real state in front of F-22P and considering weight, can we not install 2 FL-3000N instead of one

Probably but would the added cost be worth it?

 

[Ultima Thule]

Since your adversary is the IN, you will need far more advanced SAMs on your ships. The Russians have made their stuff to beat slow moving AShMs that the West use, so most of the focus will be on detecting the threat rather than intercepting it.

But in your case, you will need far more expensive SAMs, like the VL-MICA-M or CAMM, where the missile has its own RF seeker and datalink.

So there's no point replacing the FL-3000 unless the upgrade is high end. Whether you pick the Tor or the FL-3000, it will only protect you from Uran and Harpoon and not the Klub and Brahmos.

If you really wish to fight the IN, then you will need the PAAMS at the minimum. Even the Chinese HQ-16 is obsolete.

FL-3000 is build to intercept supersonic ant ship missiles like US RAM/Evolved sea sparrow missile which capable to intercept supersonic anti ship missiles @randomradio
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-116_Rolling_Airframe_Missile
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIM-162_ESSM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TY-90#FL-3000N

@randomradio

 

[Arsalan]

Since your adversary is the IN, you will need far more advanced SAMs on your ships. The Russians have made their stuff to beat slow moving AShMs that the West use, so most of the focus will be on detecting the threat rather than intercepting it.

But in your case, you will need far more expensive SAMs, like the VL-MICA-M or CAMM, where the missile has its own RF seeker and datalink.

So there's no point replacing the FL-3000 unless the upgrade is high end. Whether you pick the Tor or the FL-3000, it will only protect you from Uran and Harpoon and not the Klub and Brahmos.

If you really wish to fight the IN, then you will need the PAAMS at the minimum. Even the Chinese HQ-16 is obsolete.

I dont think even PAAMS or MICA etc will help one bit when it comes to fighting the mighty Indian Navy

Jokes aside, you need to keep in mind the engagement settings, conflict zone, time to intercept (depending on range from which engagement will take place etc). It is not like Klub or Brahmos are the ultimate weapons in this particular situation, even if you will like to think so!

 

[randomradio]

I dont think even PAAMS or MICA etc will help one bit when it comes to fighting the mighty Indian Navy

Jokes aside, you need to keep in mind the engagement settings, conflict zone, time to intercept (depending on range from which engagement will take place etc). It is not like Klub or Brahmos are the ultimate weapons in this particular situation, even if you will like to think so!

If you can't stop the Klub or Brahmos, they will most definitely do a lot of damage.

Even our Barak-1 equipped ships cannot stop Brahmos. That's why even the IN is upgrading now.

 

[Cornered Tiger]

If you can't stop the Klub or Brahmos, they will most definitely do a lot of damage.

Even our Barak-1 equipped ships cannot stop Brahmos. That's why even the IN is upgrading now.

I know Brahmos is good edition to IN but can be countered no worries.