Merkel says German multicultural society has failed

[Coltsfan]

How is your average Muslim responsible for any of that?

Please don't act naive, you expect West to treat every immigrant equally even after majority of terrorists belong to one particular religion?

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Please don't act naive, you expect West to treat every immigrant equally even after majority of terrorists belong to one particular religion?

OK, let's be clear.

Do you think it's fair to ban Muslim immigration?

 

[Coltsfan]

OK, let's be clear.

Do you think it's fair to ban Muslim immigration?

Nope, in an ideal situation it is wrong to ban any group on basis of religion.

However, responsibility lies with the followers of that religion to not shelter and protect terrorists because they stand to lose the most when "it hits the fan".

What you need to realize is, it is easy to criticize west for its immigration policies, but you fail to consider why things got to this stage. You can't discuss things in vacuum.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Please don't act naive, you expect West to treat every immigrant equally even after majority of terrorists belong to one particular religion?

I think it's unfair to say that the "majority of terrorists belong to one particular religion".

What about Basque separatists in Spain, what about Maoist insurgents in India, what about the terrorism in Latin America?

Violence is a human weakness, and it will appear wherever there are human beings.

 

[Coltsfan]

I think it's unfair to say that the "majority of terrorists belong to one particular religion".

What about Basque separatists in Spain, what about Maoist insurgents in India, what about the terrorism in Latin America?

lol....... my apologies, I thought we were discussing immigration policies of the west. Didn't realize you would club everything in one basket.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

What you need to realize is, it is easy to criticize west for its immigration policies, but you fail to consider why things got to this stage. You can't discuss things in vacuum.

I'm not criticising the West for their immigration policies. Especially since no Western nation has actually banned Muslim immigration?

I'm criticising specific far-right political parties like the BNP in Britain, and Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, who think that it's a good idea to ban Muslim immigration.

 

[Coltsfan]

I'm not criticising the West for their immigration policies. Especially since no Western nation has actually banned Muslim immigration?

I'm criticising specific far-right political parties like the BNP in Britain, and Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, who think that it's a good idea to ban Muslim immigration. When did I give the impression that I was criticising the immigration policy of any specific country...

And I am trying to make you see the possible reason why there has been a sharp rise in anti Muslim sentiments in societies that have been tolerant and open to immigration.

Distasteful and politically incorrect as it may be, sad fact is there is a direct correlation between Islamic fundamentalism and resentment against Muslims in west.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

And I am trying to make you see the possible reason why there has been a sharp rise in anti Muslim sentiments in societies that have been tolerant and open to immigration.

Distasteful and politically incorrect as it may be, sad fact is there is a direct correlation between Islamic fundamentalism and resentment against Muslims in west.

Fair enough, you could say there is a "cause and effect".

However, "anti-Muslim sentiment" (and all other such forms of discrimination) are in my view, illogical... and will only end up fuelling extremism by causing social isolation of those minorities. The only ones who benefit from that, are the extremists who committed the acts of violence in the first place.

This is just my personal opinion.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Fair enough, you could say there is a "cause and effect".

However, "anti-Muslim sentiment" (and all other such forms of discrimination) are in my view, illogical... and will only end up fuelling extremism by causing social isolation of those minorities. The only ones who benefit from that, are the extremists who committed the acts of violence in the first place.

This is just my personal opinion.

This Islamophobia sterotype is ubiquitous post 9/11.But thats not the serious problem.

Like Developreo pointed out:
It gets exacerbated when people who represent Muslims in media talk like this:
Take UK for ex:

Though Anjem Choudary is an extreme example,the damage is already done.

However if Muslims are represented in media by people like her i.e the typical hard working immigrants image,things might be fine

However,Islamophobia is just tip of the Iceberg,as they feel is ok to be Islamophobic because of the Global negative stereotype.What remains hidden under the surface is contempt for anything foreign and minority.

Today its Muslims
Tomorrow it"ll be all immigrants.
Day after tomorrow Homosexuals and degenerates.

 

[gambit]

I grew up with friends who were ethnically British, Indian, and even Japanese. And yes they are fellow citizens, after all they were born here.

You would be surprised to see how well some South Asians can speak Chinese. In fact, probably the most famous Mandarin-language teacher in China is called "Da shan", and he is a white Canadian.

I'm not sure what it has to do with my post above, do you agree or disagree with that post, in which I say banning Muslim immigration is discrimination?

Discrimination by itself is amoral, meaning it is neither 'right' nor 'wrong'. It is the reason behind a policy of discrimination that should be suspect. Every country has a duty, not merely a right, but a moral duty to examine every individual and group that wishes to cross its border and into its sovereign soil. Not every individual or group is benevolent. Every country has a dominant social and moral structure. Not every individual or group is amenable to, at the very least, peaceful coexistence with that dominant social and moral structure.

A 'visa' is an acknowledgment that entry into a sovereign territory is a controlled privilege. It is also a demand that the individual submit himself to that dominant social and moral structure as long as he is allowed to remain inside that sovereign territory. Sovereign muslim territories make that demand, no? If mere entry is a privilege, more so the privilege is the allowance of settlement, which is what immigration is all about. Playing tourist is not settlement. So if a country deemed a group to be unwilling and/or incapable of submitting itself to the dominant social and moral structure, that country has not only the right but the moral duty to prevent its own destruction from within.

 

[Jade]

Discrimination by itself is amoral, meaning it is neither 'right' nor 'wrong'. It is the reason behind a policy of discrimination that should be suspect. Every country has a duty, not merely a right, but a moral duty to examine every individual and group that wishes to cross its border and into its sovereign soil. Not every individual or group is benevolent. Every country has a dominant social and moral structure. Not every individual or group is amenable to, at the very least, peaceful coexistence with that dominant social and moral structure.

A 'visa' is an acknowledgment that entry into a sovereign territory is a controlled privilege. It is also a demand that the individual submit himself to that dominant social and moral structure as long as he is allowed to remain inside that sovereign territory. Sovereign muslim territories make that demand, no? If mere entry is a privilege, more so the privilege is the allowance of settlement, which is what immigration is all about. Playing tourist is not settlement. So if a country deemed a group to be unwilling and/or incapable of submitting itself to the dominant social and moral structure, that country has not only the right but the moral duty to prevent its own destruction from within.

Immigration is not something new, this has been happening since pre historic times, and immigration would not always remain one way as has been proved by the history innumerable times. The world would not have been as it is today if not for immigration. US and Australia are themselves the result of immigration.

I agree to what you have expressed and, I feel, in most case, the reasons behind the discrimination are flimsy grounds.

If a country feels that a group is deemed incapable of submitting to the dominant social structure of a country, it is better that the country ban the immigration of that particular group rather than discriminating the group. It should not be like if you require cheap labor or your demographics is graying, encourage immigration and if requiring to satisfy local constituents, abuse the immigrants

 

[fallstuff]

Developereo..If you can only make sense out of this:

Germany announced on Thursday it would fund Islamic studies at three state universities to train prayer leaders and religion teachers more in tune with Western society than the foreign Imams preaching at most mosques here.

train prayer leaders and religion teachers more in tune with Western society
If you can explain this in tune with western society its clearly states they want to implement their/western version of Islam just as us tried to do with woman giving ad'an in the church. Got It?

I disagree with you not all religious men coming on tv are embarrassment. Be specific choose them and list them.

The liberal Europeans accuse China of same but has no problem doing their own version.

Its an indisputable attempt to infringe on religious rights. Ironocally ,this is also an act of State supporting a religion.

As I said on a previous post, her numbers are dropping fast so she is looking for Boogyman.

Elections are in March next year.

 

[Jade]

This Islamophobia sterotype is ubiquitous post 9/11.But thats not the serious problem.

Like Developreo pointed out:
It gets exacerbated when people who represent Muslims in media talk like this:
Take UK for ex:

YouTube - Killing of Non-Muslims is Legitimate (British Mullah)

Though Anjem Choudary is an extreme example,the damage is already done.

However if Muslims are represented in media by people like her i.e the typical hard working immigrants image,things might be fine

YouTube - Sayeeda Warsi: Behind the scenes at Question Time with the BNP


However,Islamophobia is just tip of the Iceberg,as they feel is ok to be Islamophobic because of the Global negative stereotype.What remains hidden under the surface is contempt for anything foreign and minority.

Today its Muslims
Tomorrow it"ll be all immigrants.
Day after tomorrow Homosexuals and degenerates.

I really pity these people….no wonder Islamopobhia is on rise

 

[Martian]

Europeans are inherently anti-diversity. If we study history of ethenic/religious minorities there then we will see a pattern in their behaviour.

Jews have consistenly faced pogroms evenwhen they were confined to ghettos. They were continuously expelled from their cities/countries.

Roma/gypsies were even forcefully sterlised to control their population. They face discrimination due to darker color of their skin in all countries of europe.

Has anybody forget what happened to Moors after 1492 and under what conditions Moriscos/crypto-muslims were expelled from Spain in 1650s. After expelling Jews, Spain also solved their Moorsh problem as well.

Ottomans ruled for 500 years in Balkans/Eastern Europe, can anybody tell how many Muslims/Turks are remanents from that era? In 16/17th centuries there were 200 mosques in Budapest. Now there are no Ottoman era buildings standing except shrine of Gul Baba.

After dealing with their Muslim problem, Europeans will focus their attention towards Chinese/Indians. European whites are not so accomodating to other cultures as Asians are.

 

[Developereo]

If it is worth fighting for then one should be willing to make sacrifices.

I'm sorry but that's naive. Ordinary people have jobs and family and other responsibilities. They can't afford to sit in court all day long because they got harrassed wrongly by authorities. That is precisely the point of the harassment, even though the government knows they don't have a case. It makes an example of someone and serves to deter others from trying the same -- even though they are within their rights.

Case in point: When Pastor Jones threatened to burn Koran on 9/11 there was an over-whelming criticism of him. That is the way moderate elements stand up to the fringe extremists.

Nonsense. It was the Western media who promoted his cause worldwide (under the guise of 'reporting') and made him into an international celebrity. As for protests, the same thing happens when radical Muslims mouth off -- they get protested by the overwhelming majority of Muslim leaders, but the moderates don't get the publicity.

The Western media has a clear agenda: to portray Muslims as violent savages. They will zero in on any crime by any Muslim, while ignoring the positive aspects of Muslim communities.

The moderate elements in a society can't just blame it on a few bad apples and wash away their hands. Unfortunately, unless the moderate Muslims take a stand against the few radical elements, things are only gonna get worse.

So the fact that the BJP and Shiv Sena are doing so well in India must be a reflection on Hinduism and all Hindus, right?

well all the points you make is a result of increased perception in the West of all Muslims who come as immigrants being radical and fundamentalists in their views towards the western way of living....

You said it yourself: 'increased perception'. How do you suppose perceptions get formed? By media exposure. And the Western media, like I said, has a clear anti-Muslim agenda.

and according to western observers in high administrative positions ....such immigrants wish to enjoy western facilities and benefits without any compromise on their tradition/culture as they were accustomed to in their respective homelands......

As stated earlier, this has been a standard criticism of all immigrant groups in any country even in times past.

I agree that there are segments of Muslim society that exploit the welfare system, but there are pockets in all immigrant groups: just recently a large Armenian group was busted in Australia for systematic fraud of Medicare. And Vietnamese and Latino gangs get busted for insurance fraud periodically. But you don't see people stereotyping the entire immigrant community because of this.

Muslims face job discrimination in some Western countries. There have been studies confirming this in France and the UK: resumes with Muslim names get far fewer responses than identical resumes with non-Muslim names. I don't know if there have been quantifiable studies in other countries, including the US.

so here let me raise a question....how many of these cases of discrimination on a religious basis did anyone encounter before 9/11 happened ?......there would hardly be many examples ......

Islamophobia has skyrocketed since 9/11 because the Western media has turned terrorism into a clash of religions, rather than a law enforcement issue.

How many bomb blast did we have by the extremist followers of Buddhist/Hindu/Christian/Atheist religions?

That's a whole different topic. Some of us would argue that the US invasion of Muslim countries and Israel's killing of Palestinians constitute premeditated terrorism, albeit practised by a uniformed military.

However,Islamophobia is just tip of the Iceberg,as they feel is ok to be Islamophobic because of the Global negative stereotype.

The BBC is especially disgusting in this respect. They had a show 'Make me a Muslim' and, instead of showing average, middle class people as representing the British Muslim community, they picked out the most foreign-dressed, thick-accented individuals straight from the caves of Afghanistan.