Mechanised Divisions Pakistan Army

[Dreamer.]

I know that but compare the pictures which I have posted, you will notice the one on parade doesn’t have firing ports on the sides ! Did you notice it ?

Because it's anti-tank version with the Baktar Shikan mounted on top. It's role is not of standard APC (i.e. troop carrier), therefore it doesn't need slanted sides with firing ports.

The other one which does have the firing ports has no other mounted weapon other than a machine gun. It's a troop carrier hence the firing ports.

 

[Raja Porus]

Defence of RYK, Punjab is the responsibility of 16ID(Pano Aqil, sindh).
Perhaps just a single inf bde of 16inf div is deployed there, permanently.

 

[Signalian]

Which Pakistan army Armored formations are facing these Indian army independent Armored brigades ?

2nd (I) Armoured Brigade - Mamun (FLEUR DE LIS Brigade)

3rd (I) Armoured Brigade - Ratnuchak (SABRE Brigade) IX Corps - Yol (RISING STAR)

4th (I) Armoured Brigade - Bhatinda (BLACK MACE Brigade) XII Corps - Jodhpur (KONARK CORPS)

6th (I) Armoured Brigade - Suratgarh (SAND VIPERS Brigade) X Corps-Bhatinda (CHETAK CORPS)

14th (I) Armoured Brigade - Bhatinda (BLACK CHARGERS Brigade) I Corps - Mathura

16th (I) Armoured Brigade - Mamun (BLACK ARROW Brigade)

23rd (I) Armoured Brigade - Amritsar (FLAMING ARROW Brigade) XI Corps - Jalandhar (VAJRA CORPS)

IA Independent Armored Brigades have 3 x Armored Regiments, 1 x Mechanized Infantry Regiment, 1 x Medium Regiment (Arty), and other supporting troops

 

[Raja Porus]

IA Independent Armored Brigades have 3 x Armored Regiments, 1 x Mechanized Infantry Regiment, 1 x Mediu

While on paper it may seem impressive, isn't it too armour heavy. The Infantry component is too minimal. What will they do with so much tanks lacking infantry support? Provide reinforcements to other formations. I don't think they can perform independently. Moreover arty support is also inadequate.
Paksitani IABGS having 2+1, 1+1 or 1+2 composition seem to be far more composite and manageable.

2nd (I) Armoured Brigade - Mamun (FLEUR DE LIS Brigade)

Possible against 6th amoured div advance to Pathankot.

3rd (I) Armoured Brigade - Ratnuchak (SABRE Brigade) IX Corps - Yol (RISING STAR)

Again, either against 6th armoured div's thrust or to pre-empt any such attack. May also be used against 23 inf div.

4th (I) Armoured Brigade - Bhatinda (BLACK MACE Brigade) XII Corps - Jodhpur (KONARK CORPS)

Against a Paksitani offense by 1st armoured div or 14 inf div in Fazilka. may also come up against 26 mech if it supports PA's II corps advance. Similarly considering the fact that these formations have 3 armd regts it may bud of one or two regts for an Indian offence along Ganganagar axis by 21 Corps. Same for 6th armd bde.

14th (I) Armoured Brigade - Bhatinda (BLACK CHARGERS Brigade) I Corps - Mathura

Most likely act as corps reserves for strike corps. Will face 26 mech/1st armd div.

16th (I) Armoured Brigade - Mamun (BLACK ARROW

Same as 2nd bde.

23rd (I) Armoured Brigade - Amritsar (FLAMING ARROW Brigade) XI Corps - Jalandhar (VAJRA CORPS)

May come up against 10 or 11 inf div. However if this sector remains insignificant it can be sent either North or South.

 

[Raja Porus]

While on paper it may seem impressive, isn't it too armour heavy. The Infantry component is too minimal. What will they do with so much tanks lacking infantry support? Provide reinforcements to other formations. I don't think they can perform independently. Moreover arty support is also inadequate.
Paksitani IABGS having 2+1, 1+1 or 1+2 composition seem to be far more composite and manageable.

Possible against 6th amoured div advance to Pathankot.

Again, either against 6th armoured div's thrust or to pre-empt any such attack. May also be used against 23 inf div.

Against a Paksitani offense by 1st armoured div or 14 inf div in Fazilka. may also come up against 26 mech if it supports PA's II corps advance. Similarly considering the fact that these formations have 3 armd regts it may bud of one or two regts for an Indian offence along Ganganagar axis by 21 Corps. Same for 6th armd bde.

Most likely act as corps reserves for strike corps. Will face 26 mech/1st armd div.

Same as 2nd bde.

May come up against 10 or 11 inf div. However if this sector remains insignificant it can be sent either North or South.

Forgot to add, iss post ko @PanzerKiel ki pohanch se dur Rakhein.

 

[Signalian]

While on paper it may seem impressive, isn't it too armour heavy. The Infantry component is too minimal. What will they do with so much tanks lacking infantry support? Provide reinforcements to other formations. I don't think they can perform independently. Moreover arty support is also inadequate.
Paksitani IABGS having 2+1, 1+1 or 1+2 composition seem to be far more composite and manageable.

Possible against 6th amoured div advance to Pathankot.

Again, either against 6th armoured div's thrust or to pre-empt any such attack. May also be used against 23 inf div.

Against a Paksitani offense by 1st armoured div or 14 inf div in Fazilka. may also come up against 26 mech if it supports PA's II corps advance. Similarly considering the fact that these formations have 3 armd regts it may bud of one or two regts for an Indian offence along Ganganagar axis by 21 Corps. Same for 6th armd bde.

Most likely act as corps reserves for strike corps. Will face 26 mech/1st armd div.

Same as 2nd bde.

May come up against 10 or 11 inf div. However if this sector remains insignificant it can be sent either North or South.

A bigger formation has its plus and minuses but in Pakistan case there is lack of equipment versus India. Tanks, APC, artillery etc are less. This means formations are lesser too. 2 vs 3 armoured divs. Mech vs RAPIDS.

PA can increase tanks numbers to counter balance. Then instead of forming new formations either put them in reserve like developed countries do or form new armor brigades in infantry divs.

Reserve idea could be better since numbers will come close but expenditure will remain less by not increasing numbers of active formations. Losses replaced easily in war or ad hoc formations in war.

If numbers become close, this will create new threat matrix for India. Consider PA 3500 MBT to IA 4000+ MBT. Gap closing.

 

[Raja Porus]

Reserve idea could be better since numbers will come close but expenditure will remain less by not increasing numbers of active formations. Losses replaced easily in war or ad hoc formations in war.

Don't you think that the initial days/week will be the decisive ones and after that both sides might settle to a slogging match. Moreover due to the nuclear threshold, no significant permanent territorial gains would be made.
In the end like 27th feb, the one with whom the initiative would rest and the side which would maintain ascendency would be considered the victor. That's why I think raising sustainable formations (bdes) would be better with limited reserves so that we are able to throw in more forces initially instead of waiting for stabilizing of fixed front lines and then using the same resources (which could have been used to a greater effect if employed as separate force) for replenishment of own forces .

 

[PanzerKiel]

While on paper it may seem impressive, isn't it too armour heavy. The Infantry component is too minimal. What will they do with so much tanks lacking infantry support? Provide reinforcements to other formations. I don't think they can perform independently. Moreover arty support is also inadequate.

They are armor heavy, much more than us, that is what they are trained for, and that is what their doctrine requires. How come can you say that they lack infantry support? Try doing some analysis by comparing the equipment and manpower of our MIB and their MIR / R&S units....you will get your answer.

Possible against 6th amoured div advance to Pathankot.

Again, either against 6th armoured div's thrust or to pre-empt any such attack. May also be used against 23 inf div.

Against a Paksitani offense by 1st armoured div or 14 inf div in Fazilka. may also come up against 26 mech if it supports PA's II corps advance. Similarly considering the fact that these formations have 3 armd regts it may bud of one or two regts for an Indian offence along Ganganagar axis by 21 Corps. Same for 6th armd bde.

Most likely act as corps reserves for strike corps. Will face 26 mech/1st armd div.

Same as 2nd bde.

May come up against 10 or 11 inf div. However if this sector remains insignificant it can be sent either North or South.

Try forming these IA brigades into IBGs. Then you will find something new. You are doing it on paper that our division against theirs based on their peacetime locations. Tell me, would you like to waste your armored reserves against Indian armored brigades? What then you will have for your own offensives into India, who will face the three Indian Strike Corps?

 

[iLION12345_1]

I know that but compare the pictures which I have posted, you will notice the one on parade doesn’t have firing ports on the sides ! Did you notice it ?

Talha itself had some design variations, some models were seen with firing ports, some with beveled sides, some with both, some with neither, these are relatively minor changes that sometimes do no get a model number or change in name. I believe the one on the left is an Italian VCC-2, that’s what they called it in the parade as well, while the other is M113P. However the descriptions given by PK may also be accurate.

 

[Signalian]

Forgot to add, iss post ko @PanzerKiel ki pohanch se dur Rakhein.

Don't you think that the initial days/week will be the decisive ones and after that both sides might settle to a slogging match. Moreover due to the nuclear threshold, no significant permanent territorial gains would be made.
In the end like 27th feb, the one with whom the initiative would rest and the side which would maintain ascendency would be considered the victor. That's why I think raising sustainable formations (bdes) would be better with limited reserves so that we are able to throw in more forces initially instead of waiting for stabilizing of fixed front lines and then using the same resources (which could have been used to a greater effect if employed as separate force) for replenishment of own forces .

What’s PA MBT inventory. Type and numbers

 

[Joe Shearer]

Forgot to add, iss post ko @PanzerKiel ki pohanch se dur Rakhein.

Too late. He's seen it and was last seen on the floor, helpless and weak. I strongly recommend a trip to Nepal. Great weather now. I'd join youse guys if my health permitted.

This means formations are lesser too. 2 vs 3 armoured divs. Mech vs RAPIDS.

Dying to comment, but not good for a forum like this.

 

[Joe Shearer]

They are armor heavy, much more than us, that is what they are trained for, and that is what their doctrine requires. How come can you say that they lack infantry support? Try doing some analysis by comparing the equipment and manpower of our MIB and their MIR / R&S units....you will get your answer.

Try forming these IA brigades into IBGs. Then you will find something new. You are doing it on paper that our division against theirs based on their peacetime locations. Tell me, would you like to waste your armored reserves against Indian armored brigades? What then you will have for your own offensives into India, who will face the three Indian Strike Corps?

True enough at the moment.

Out of 39 Indian divisions, around 12 (9 in the east across 3 Corps level formations, an indeterminate number with the recent changes in east Ladakh with XIV Corps) are tasked against the PLA. 4 more are committed to higher level formations, including 3 artillery divisions. Effectively, there are 23 Indian divisions facing 25 Pakistani, of course, with significant Pakistani commitment to the western frontier. However, the space involved is so narrow that re-deployment (for the PA) is a question of a couple of weeks (worst case; best case, even down to a week).

This is fine to hold off a Pakistani attack, even against the incredible concentrations built up around certain spots that have always given the PA fruitful results. Unless someone, somewhere is willing to train battle leaders capable of leading armoured brigades (preferably armour-rich mechanised infantry brigades), there will never be an effective Indian attack into Pakistan.

There is also the steep deficiency in artillery. Unless there is substantial productions of the ATAGS-type howitzer, and unless there is commensurate production of ammunition completely outside the clutches of those homicidal maniacs in the public sector units that were making them, India will have only tanks acting as self-propelled artillery.

Finally, we have been finessed by the PLA, that seems to have decided that they will move in formations when they like, at very high speed of deployment, and not leave standing formations on the ground. The Indian Army finds itself maintaining huge numbers on the ground, on difficult, hostile terrain, at the end of extended logistics lines serviced by a logistics organisation that is tightly stretched. Efforts at expanding road networks have stumbled in the very delicate mountain environment that does not support heavy logistics activity.

That means that sooner or later, the Indian infantry divisions will be diverted, during moments of high stress, from plains deployment to high altitude deployment. The cost in sickness and neutralisation of non-acclimatised troops is already known.

That leaves very robust IBGs as the only card left to play for the Indian Army, and even that will break down south of Sri Ganganagar, where the IA has to deploy across vast stretches of mechanically destructive terrain, against an opposition sitting on the lip of the desert. In this stretch, only defensive operations are realistic, and therefore, multiple independent armoured brigades, that may - MAY - be effective if mixed with additional equipment that gives them teeth in the air as well as on land.

Who's joining me in Nepal?

 

[Raja Porus]

How come can you say that they lack infantry support? Try doing some analysis by comparing the equipment and manpower of our MIB and their MIR / R&S units....you will get your answer

1 MIR= 52-58×BMPs

So about 52 bmps for 150+ tanks. Or a single infantry regt for three armd regts. So isn't it unbalanced?

forming these IA brigades into IBGs. Then you will find something new. You are doing it on paper that our division against theirs based on their peacetime locations. Tell me, would you like to waste your armored reserves against Indian armored brigades? What then you will have for your own offensives into India, who will face the three Indian Strike Corps?

I was using the Indian IBGs against Paksitani offenses and not the other way round. Because of the reasons mentioned by Joe I was using the the Indian bdes for defence.

They are armor heavy, much more than us, that is what they are trained for, and that is what their doctrine requires.

What I've inferred from this and Joe's post is that Indian doctrine requires their IABGs to be armor rich so that they are able to fight back/bog down a Paksitani attack without requiring further support and allowing the Indian armd divs to concentrate on a counter offense when they arrive.
Until the Indian strike formations reach their jump off points, these bdes will have blunted Paksitani attacks being completely independent.
Their being armour rich is because they'll be used as anvil?

What’s PA MBT inventory. Type and numbers

- 1,6 armd divs= 2×320=640
- 9×IABGS(incl those of mech div)=9(approx) ×88=792
- Armd bdes with inf divs (8,14,15,16,18,34,40)= 7×88=616
- Inf bdes having armd regts (10,11,23,37,17)= 5×88=220
- Corps reserve bdes(1,2,4,5,30,31corps)= 528
- Corps reserve regt, 12 coprs=44
- In addition there are multiple indp sqns as well with bdes.
(Moreover, I think that 15, 8 inf div have two bdes same might be the case with some other inf divs)
Also what about the indp infantry bdes, do they have any armd component?

Total > 2800

 

[iLION12345_1]

1 MIR= 52-58×BMPs

So about 52 bmps for 150+ tanks. Or a single infantry regt for three armd regts. So isn't it unbalanced?

I was using the Indian IBGs against Paksitani offenses and not the other way round. Because of the reasons mentioned by Joe I was using the the Indian bdes for defence.

What I've inferred from this and Joe's post is that Indian doctrine requires their IABGs to be armor rich so that they are able to fight back/bog down a Paksitani attack without requiring further support and allowing the Indian armd divs to concentrate on a counter offense when they arrive.
Until the Indian strike formations reach their jump off points, these bdes will have blunted Paksitani attacks being completely independent.
Their being armour rich is because they'll be used as anvil?

- 1,6 armd divs= 2×320=640
- 9×IABGS(incl those of mech div)=9(approx) ×88=792
- Armd bdes with inf divs (8,14,15,16,18,34,40)= 7×88=616
- Inf bdes having armd regts (10,11,23,37,17)= 5×88=220
- Corps reserve bdes(1,2,4,5,30,31corps)= 528
- Corps reserve regt, 12 coprs=44
- In addition there are multiple indp sqns as well with bdes.
(Moreover, I think that 15, 8 inf div have two bdes same might be the case with some other inf divs)
Also what about the indp infantry bdes, do they have any armd component?

Total > 2800

What’s PA MBT inventory. Type and numbers

My estimates are based solely on delivery and production numbers and not regimental or service numbers, if anything it should be a general overview into the types and capabilities of the tanks, I would assume the numbers posted by Desert Fox are more accurate.

Pakistan:

VT-4P (3rd Gen+, post 2010s tech): Unknown number delivered (150+). 300 ordered, more planned.

Al-Khalid-I (3rd Gen, post 2010s tech): 110 in service, 110 on order. Al-Khalid-II production will begin shortly after Al-Khalid-I orders are complete, further 220+ Al-Khalid-II planned.

Al-Khalid (3rd Gen early 2000s tech): 400~ in service.

T80UD (3rd Gen, early 90s tech, modernized): 320 in service.

Type 85-UG (2nd Gen Modernized): 300 in service.

Al-Zarrar (2nd Gen Modernized): 600~ in service.

Type 69-IIM (1st Gen, obsolete): 200~ in service with both army and FC. To be replaced by VT-4P.

Type 59-IIM (1st Gen, obsolete): Around 700~ service. Some also In service with the FC. Few hundred more in storage. Being replaced by VT-4P.

TOTAL: 2700-2800 in service + few hundred reserves (Pakistani reserves are mostly Type 59s)

3rd/3rd+ Gen: 1100~ in service. With several hundred more on order.
(Note: VT-4P is being used to replace first generation tanks, while Al-Khalid-I and later Al-Khalid-II orders are being used to raise new regiments to increase fleet size)
2nd+ Gen: 900~ in service.
1st Gen: 800~ in service, will all be replaced by VT-4P, AK-I and AK-II.



INDIA:

T90S (3rd Gen, early 2000s tech): 1193 in service, 464 on order.

Arjun MK1A (3rd Gen) 1 tank in service. 118 on order.
Arjun MK1 (3rd Gen, performance closer to 2nd Gen): 124 in service.
T72 Improved Ajeya (2nd Gen Modernized): 950~ in service.
T72 (2nd Gen, obsolete): 850~ in active service, few hundred in storage.


TOTAL: 3100~ tanks in service + several hundred reserves (Indian reserves are mostly T72s)

3rd Gen: 1314 in service. 582 on order
2nd/2nd+ Gen: 1800~ in service.

No replacements planned in the Indian army till 2030 as per current information. I do realize that 3100 is too small to cover all the known Indian armored brigades and regiments, but the number of Arjun and T90S is 100% accurate, the only explanation might be that they have more of their stock T72s in service than is known. Which would mean lower reserves, but nonetheless, that’s the only explanation.

 

[Ghost 125]

1 MIR= 52-58×BMPs

So about 52 bmps for 150+ tanks. Or a single infantry regt for three armd regts. So isn't it unbalanced?

I was using the Indian IBGs against Paksitani offenses and not the other way round. Because of the reasons mentioned by Joe I was using the the Indian bdes for defence.

What I've inferred from this and Joe's post is that Indian doctrine requires their IABGs to be armor rich so that they are able to fight back/bog down a Paksitani attack without requiring further support and allowing the Indian armd divs to concentrate on a counter offense when they arrive.
Until the Indian strike formations reach their jump off points, these bdes will have blunted Paksitani attacks being completely independent.
Their being armour rich is because they'll be used as anvil?

IBGs are not Brigades