Maulanas to Modi: we have not come from Arabia.Our ancestors were also Indians

[Force-India]

So now majority of Indians gonna consider them Indians? or they still have to chant ram ram and stop cow sacrifice to prove themselves as Indians? A large number of Indians say that Muslims in India should sacrifice their faith to avail the title of Indian/s

Hmm. You have deep inside knowledge of day to day life of India while sitting in Pakistan. Nice.

 

[illusion8]

I doubt their sincerity in the matter and that of Swamy too. There is deception in their message as well. There is no "Bharatipan/im/um/ing/ung" in anything the Indian Muslims do or have. There is no need to scream out Vande Mataram more than the Indian Hindu to prove that.

However, there is a strong cultural connection that has less to do with believing in the Mahabharta or its ideals and more to do with belonging to the land. For e.g. , there is the usage of a lighter shade of saffron by religious preachers some 800 years ago to be able to associate with the "psychological" behaviour of the people and make them more comfortable with them. This contrasted with the more direct approach of the conquerors and is the reason why all the saints in India are still revered by people of all religions be it Muslims or Hindus even though many of these people were technically aliens.

These people preached Islam in the same language and in the same vein that the locals were used to and helped them understand it. At no point did it take anything away from the religion nor did it take anything negative from the local culture into it. Which is how the identity developed; an amalgamation of the softer culture found in India(vis a vis Arabs and Persians) with the religious/cultural ideals that these people brought with them from their journeys across Arabia, Persia and Central Asia.

The result was a distinct yet similar identity. Culturally similar but religiously distinct and non-intertwined.

True...The common narrative of most Indian Muslims are that they are more rooted to the soil where they were born rather than to arabia or anywhere else. The common saying among them is that the Muslim from tamil Nadu is way different than the one from Kashmir or Uttar Pradesh...and it shows in the dialects, the food habits, the business or employment they do and overall in how they interact with the one's around them. This is also clearly evident superficially, but if you say that it is all a deception then there's nothing one can do anything about it. One cannot force patriotism or love for fellow countrymen on anyone....least of all Muslims because they react differently compared to everyone else.

They make their case of citizenship because of the democratic setup and the presence of the larger more accepting Hindu population. They also make their case because of their place of birth and the freedom to practice any religion, Not because they really believe in secularism or democracy - they believe to the extent that it makes India their home.They do not object to the lack of secularism in the larger muslim world nor do they object to the lack of democracy in the larger muslim world, which means in their eyes the idea of democracy and secularism is only meant for non muslim nations which I guess is true for most muslims.

Having said that...there is a qualitative difference between a Pakistani muslim and an indian muslim. A pakistani muslim would be more faithful to his supposed ancestors, more faithful to what he thinks is his cultural muslim heritage, more faithful to his religion...and the nation and fellow non muslim comes somewhere in that mix.

An Indian muslim most likely prides on being an Indian and on equal measure prides on being a Muslim because the constitution allows him to be one....most likely why even Zawahiri is confused why the huge Sunni Muslim population of india isn't as extremist as the rest.

 

[SQ8]

True...The common narrative of most Indian Muslims are that they are more rooted to the soil where they were born rather than to arabia or anywhere else. The common saying among them is that the Muslim from tamil Nadu is way different than the one from Kashmir or Uttar Pradesh...and it shows in the dialects, the food habits, the business or employment they do and overall in how they interact with the one's around them. This is also clearly evident superficially, but if you say that it is all a deception then there's nothing one can do anything about it. One cannot force patriotism or love for fellow countrymen on anyone....least of all Muslims because they react differently compared to everyone else.

They make their case of citizenship because of the democratic setup and the presence of the larger more accepting Hindu population. They also make their case because of their place of birth and the freedom to practice any religion, Not because they really believe in secularism or democracy - they believe to the extent that it makes India their home.They do not object to the lack of secularism in the larger muslim world nor do they object to the lack of democracy in the larger muslim world, which means in their eyes the idea of democracy and secularism is only meant for non muslim nations which I guess is true for most muslims.

Having said that...there is a qualitative difference between a Pakistani muslim and an indian muslim. A pakistani muslim would be more faithful to his supposed ancestors, more faithful to what he thinks is his cultural muslim heritage, more faithful to his religion...and the nation and fellow non muslim comes somewhere in that mix.

An Indian muslim most likely prides on being an Indian and on equal measure prides on being a Muslim because the constitution allows him to be one....most likely why even Zawahiri is confused why the huge Sunni Muslim population of india isn't as extremist as the rest.

Its a yes and no. Yes, there is more inclination on an Indian Muslim to be part of India because they were born of that land and less so because they are of Indian decent. But also because they feel more connected to their fellow Indian than say an Arab or otherwise due to the fact that they never left that environment or quasi integrated society.
The same also goes for the Pakistani. They are in increasing degrees from south to north less inclined to see people of other religions and even ethnicities with acceptance and tend to be more suspecting of outsiders from faith and creed.

The partition was actually worse for communal instincts in India than before. For e.g. both my elder and even @haviZsultan 's might recall that there were many MORE Sunni-Shia riots in Lucknow than there were ever Hindu-Muslim riots; the former were an almost yearly event at fairly large scales whilst the latter occurred once in a five years over some minor issue with much less intensity. Prior to the Raj as well there were much less communal ideals and tensions in India as the alliances were more ethnic than religious.

 

[Imran Khan]

Hmm. You have deep inside knowledge of day to day life of India while sitting in Pakistan. Nice.

its internet era let me inform you the person you are talking already visited india

 

[illusion8]

Its a yes and no. Yes, there is more inclination on an Indian Muslim to be part of India because they were born of that land and less so because they are of Indian decent. But also because they feel more connected to their fellow Indian than say an Arab or otherwise due to the fact that they never left that environment or quasi integrated society.
The same also goes for the Pakistani. They are in increasing degrees from south to north less inclined to see people of other religions and even ethnicities with acceptance and tend to be more suspecting of outsiders from faith and creed.

There are varying degrees to it, the call for identifying one's ancestry on the back of gaznavi or the rest is way higher in pakistan than is it in india. More Pakistani's are/ would be closer to their supposed Arabic, central Asian links and their ideologies than to the idea of Pakistan being made for Indian Muslims. The reason why the amount of recruits and the level of extremism is way higher among Pakistani populace than the Indian Muslim one. Though one can see the winds of change in the Indian Muslim psyche...but isn't alarming yet.

 

[SQ8]

There are varying degrees to it. More Pakistani's are/ would be closer to their supposed Arabic, central Asian links and their ideologies than to the idea of Pakistan being made for Indian Muslims. The reason why the amount for recruits and the level of extremism is way higher among Pakistani populace than the Indian Muslim one. Though one can see the winds of change in the Indian Muslim psyche...but isn't alarming yet.

As I mentioned "West of the Indus". Which is why many Indian Muslims were opposed to the Idea of a separate country in that particular area of then united India. Anything beyond Lahore was/is still considered the wild west and people were considered fools if they wanted to go there just for the sake of travelling.

However, to say that extremism is confined to the west is unfair, we must not confuse cultural conservative ideals with extremism. The first winds of extremism originated from Deoband which is nowhere near the west. It was these very deobandis that opposed education, then they opposed integration , then they opposed the Muslim league.. and as @Imran Khan puts it very well; will say/do anything to ensure the survival of their sect.

As mentioned earlier the true winds of change in Pakistan began with Ayub Khan and his fake history books and the Saudi "Invasion" that came in lieu of the Afghan war in Pakistan. India too has been getting the GCC extreme winds and they will eventually hit through(or already have slowly) thanks to the internet. But unlike Pakistan these are not organized politically or as an institution but in cells within the younger population.

 

[Force-India]

its internet era let me inform you the person you are talking already visited india

Very different from living in India.

The partition was actually worse for communal instincts in India than before. For e.g. both my elder and even @haviZsultan 's might recall that there were many MORE Sunni-Shia riots in Lucknow than there were ever Hindu-Muslim riots; the former were an almost yearly event at fairly large scales whilst the latter occurred once in a five years over some minor issue with much less intensity. Prior to the Raj as well there were much less communal ideals and tensions in India as the alliances were more ethnic than religious.

Its easy to incite people and hard to do the opposite. Just like its easy to divide. Now all we need is treat each country as saperate and not interfere in each other's religious matters. Although religious hatred is also because of the Kashmir conflict. I don't think its the sole reason. There is something more which is not explainable. Even if Kashmir issue is resolved, i don't think there will be peace between India and Pakistan ever (might be wrong though).

 

[illusion8]

As I mentioned "West of the Indus". Which is why many Indian Muslims were opposed to the Idea of a separate country in that particular area of then united India. Anything beyond Lahore was/is still considered the wild west and people were considered fools if they wanted to go there just for the sake of travelling.

However, to say that extremism is confined to the west is unfair, we must not confuse cultural conservative ideals with extremism. The first winds of extremism originated from Deoband which is nowhere near the west. It was these very deobandis that opposed education, then they opposed integration , then they opposed the Muslim league.. and as @Imran Khan puts it very well; will say/do anything to ensure the survival of their sect.

As mentioned earlier the true winds of change in Pakistan began with Ayub Khan and his fake history books and the Saudi "Invasion" that came in lieu of the Afghan war in Pakistan. India too has been getting the GCC extreme winds and they will eventually hit through(or already have slowly) thanks to the internet. But unlike Pakistan these are not organized politically or as an institution but in cells within the younger population.

True enough...though what I analyse is from the present standpoint. As havizultan said and I quote The call for identifying pakistan with "We muslims have a distinct identity and are in no way Indians. Our legends are those of Ahmed Shah Durrani, Mir Chakar Khan Rind, Mahmud Ghaznavi among many others. The more recent laid back attitude of other muslims left in Indian occupied parts and their support to people like Kalam Azad is a threat to the entire well being of our people who must fight for their rights and ask the question why property taken from us in Hyderabad and Lucknow has not been returned to us since the partition.

My parents were born in Lucknow but they are Pakistani and Pakistan will and should forever be in the heart of every muslim left there. We are one body. You can cut the head but it will always belong to one body. We muslims should not become slaves of India specially since they are the killers of our people".

This confusion of culture is deeply rooted in pakistani society, it was especially true in the earlier decades when most pakistani - and to an extent a large Indian contingent identified themselves with arabs or afghans...even mughals. There are many Indian muslims who carry the surname of khan who do not genetically or physically appear anywhere close to the tribals of afghanistan. They adopt the dress and head gear matching the arabs and central asians, they even mimic their culture and their food habits...especially true for the madrasseh bunch or muslims from the lower strata of society.

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

ek time pe bohot shor machta tha hum syed hai hum galib hai hum mirza hai hum yeh hai woh hai hum arabi khhoon hai .. ab achanak party badal di gaddaro ne .

 

[SQ8]

Its easy to incite people and hard to do the opposite. Just like its easy to divide. Now all we need is treat each country as saperate and not interfere in each other's religious matters. Although religious hatred is also because of the Kashmir conflict. I don't think its the sole reason. There is something more which is not explainable. Even if Kashmir issue is resolved, i don't think there will be peace between India and Pakistan ever (might be wrong though).

Kashmir is not the only issue. The issue of peace resides within the reconciliation of northern India with Northern Pakistan.
Essentially both need to let go of the need to differentiate between each other to forge identities. That lies less with the people and more with the political powers. Who use such issues to forge their vote banks as this thread is also reflective of. The common man sans leadership has much lesser interest in who he hates as they need a vent for their frustration. To repeat the dialogue from the very unrelated but very true Munna Bhai MBBS the first dialgoue.. these people have so much crap in their lives that they are willing to take it out on anything that befits it.
Mumbai 26/11 being what it was, would still be forgotten faster if not for politicians and certain interests keeping it alive, just as 71 would be.. or all other ills between the two.

As I tell my friends in real life and not the majority that come from across the border on PDF who are utter idiots. The day you realize the absolute fruitlessness of the hatred between the two nations, between Hindus and Muslims in India... and all other issues...is the day you will understand my reason to discuss these issues and find amusement with them.

 

[Imran Khan]

ek time pe bohot shor machta tha hum syed hai hum galib hai hum mirza hai hum yeh hai woh hai hum arabi khhoon hai .. ab achanak party badal di gaddaro ne .

bhai jeena bhi to hai na akher

 

[illusion8]

ek time pe bohot shor machta tha hum syed hai hum galib hai hum mirza hai hum yeh hai woh hai hum arabi khhoon hai .. ab achanak party badal di gaddaro ne .

Reality dawned on them that the one's you mentioned aren't worth getting associated with...for obvious reasons..

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

bhai jeena bhi to hai na akher

heheheheh

 

[illusion8]

bhai jeena bhi to hai na akher

yaar...koi muslim India mein kudh ko galib, yah mirza yah khan yah kuch bhi keh le toh kya woh maara jaayega?

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

Reality dawned on them that the one's you mentioned aren't worth getting associated with...for obvious reasons..

yeah but at least now they should not say that they are part of some vedic civilisation well, Indian Muslims are