Mao's Great Leap Forward 'killed 45 million in four years'

[bindaas]

shuttler, nothing runs in India to figure of 45 million.

 

[below_freezing]

If that was true, where are the bodies?

Here are some facts: bones from WW2 soldiers are still being dug up in China and Russia today in construction sites.

There haven't been any bones dug up from the 1958-1962 period.

If there were mass crematoriums, then that begs the question: who staffed those crematoriums and how could they keep running 24/7 when it takes 1 hour to cremate a body, it leaves about a kilogram of ash after the bones are ground up, and there were no reports of massive smoke clouds and the smell of burning hair over China the way there were in Germany and Poland despite constant US and Soviet surveillance?

If the bodies were dumped into the ocean, that contradicts the assertion that most of the starvation happened away from Beijing and Shanghai so "no foreigners could see it". Indeed, Soviet experts were stationed in Sichuan at the time to help on the nuclear program, and there has been no Soviet corroboration of this story.

Even more telling is population growth rates.

Population under the ROC grew 100 million in 37 years. It grew by the same amount 1949-1963. That was not due to any increase in fertility. Indeed, fertility of Chinese families were 6.0 in the 30's, the same as Afghanistan, and actually dropped slightly to 5.7 due to the introduction of modern medicine by Mao.

The reason is because life expectancy increased from 37 to 67. As we know, life expectancy is not a solid number. It doesn't mean people dropped dead at 37. Instead, there were a few 70 and 80 year olds, but the vast majority died as infants.

How do you have an increasing life expectancy when you lose 45 million people? That's a statistical impossibility, and if you tried to claim this to your insurance company, they'd sue you.

Although there is no evidence of any bodies in China in 1958-1962, there's ample evidence of India's starvation. Just look around the Ganges. There are bloated floating corpses in the river, funeral pyres on the banks and bones stuck in the mud.

The evidence of India's genocide of 100 million Indians is clear for all to see, while the indirect starvation deaths alleged at 45 million has no physical evidence.

 

[Fanling Monk]

He changed China from a slum to a modern state.
He changed the Chinese from a drug-ridden and weak society to a symbol of collective responsibility to the state.

It is always said that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, I'd say even if this over-inflated figure is taken to be true, it brought much more benefits for China than disadvantages, in the long run.

At that period China went through the toughest time. Because of political differences some powerful countries formed blocks and embargoed us and no one in the world was willing to trade with us. Something had to be done otherwise millions would starved to death, so Mao, as the leader, chose the Great Leap Forward policies but failed. Was it intentional? Of course not for no one can foreseen such results.

Let's put it in the back of our minds and move on.

 

[jayron]

Mao was more idiotic than evil. His foolish ideas like making steel in you back yard and killing sparrows for example caused wide spread famine and death. When ever an ideology interferes with human freedom too much, it results in mass suffering apart from lies , deceit and large scale brainwashing. Its good the Chinese abandoned Mao's policies and took a more pragmatic approach to run the huge nation.If not, China from being the success story today , would have been the greatest tragedy in Human history.

This an informative documentary on Mao's failed policies
Communism: The Promise and The Reality - Great Leap Forward [1/6] - YouTube

 

[Sasquatch]

I believe that it is important to know the truth about Mao because veneration of him, his political beliefs and his "accomplishments" is the underpinning of the legitimacy of the Communist Party of China's right to rule modern China. The truth is that this legitimacy was built by being callous to the deaths of tens of millions of his countrymen. Mao was a megalomaniac. The sooner the Chinese people disavow him as a great leader, the sooner the Chinese people will be able to build a truly just and loving society.

Why would we disavow our founding father ? chinese people have different opinion were ok with our society now and the changes it made.

 

[below_freezing]

Mao was more idiotic than evil. His foolish ideas like making steel in you back yard and killing sparrows for example caused wide spread famine and death. When ever an ideology interferes with human freedom too much, it results in mass suffering apart from lies , deceit and large scale brainwashing. Its good the Chinese abandoned Mao's policies and took a more pragmatic approach to run the huge nation.If not, China from being the success story today , would have been the greatest tragedy in Human history.

So you attribute the alleged "deaths" as due to incompetence, instead of malice.

Let's say I accept that these "deaths" occurred. Gambit said that "it's better to die of incompetence, than to die of malice" when Gotterdamerung and he were talking about who was worse, Nazis or India.

Since by your own admission, if Mao DID cause this very high number of deaths, then both Mao and GoI caused them due to incompetence, not malice. In that case, because the intent is the same, the only way to distinguish them is to count the number died.

Assuming you are right, China had 45 million "deaths", but India had 120 million deaths, both due to incompetence.

 

[shuttler]

At that period China went through the toughest time. Because of political differences some powerful countries formed blocks and embargoed us and no one in the world was willing to trade with us. Something had to be done otherwise millions would starved to death, so Mao, as the leader, chose the Great Leap Forward policies but failed. Was it intentional? Of course not for no one can foreseen such results.

Let's put it in the back of our minds and move on.

correct. we have had what the iranians, cubans etc are experiencing today: sanctions!

Mao's intent was not malicious.

It was a mis calculation which led to the failure of the campaign unlike what is happening in india where under their so called democracy in which millions of kids are underfed / dying today. They are till spending crazily for the massive foray of foreign weapons with which they will lay them down to rust or have them crashed into the mountains like their flying coffin mig 21

 

[Sasquatch]

Mao and Dr. Sun Yat Sen made China they have a place in our history noting will change that.

 

[Fanling Monk]

So you attribute the alleged "deaths" as due to incompetence, instead of malice.

Let's say I accept that these "deaths" occurred. Gambit said that "it's better to die of incompetence, than to die of malice" when Gotterdamerung and he were talking about who was worse, Nazis or India.

Since by your own admission, if Mao DID cause this very high number of deaths, then both Mao and GoI caused them due to incompetence, not malice. In that case, because the intent is the same, the only way to distinguish them is to count the number died.

Assuming you are right, China had 45 million "deaths", but India had 120 million deaths, both due to incompetence.

I don't know about India, but I wouldn't call Mao's Great leap Forward was the results of incompetence. A policy with that scale was never tried before and China had to do something to avoid a mass famine and it simply didn't work out. It was a do or die decision that Mao had to make and got blamed because of the results.

 

[doidoi2]

Mao's regime was one of the most repressive and brutal in Chinese history. It's a sad page in the history of the Middle Kingdom. However, he did accomplish one thing, that most Chinese today are grateful for:

THE INTEGRITY OF THE CHINESE MAINLAND

Other than this, he was a great military strategist, but a failure of an Economist. China today owes its territorial integrity to Mao, but also owes 40 years of backward development and the insanely barbaric Cultural Revolution to Mao.

If it were up to me, I'd label Mao as a misguided general that kept China backward and poor for more than half a century.

Deng Xiao Ping was really the hero of Modern China. If anyone deserves full credit for the arrival of China, he does.

 

[below_freezing]

Mao's regime was one of the most repressive and brutal in Chinese history. It's a sad page in the history of the Middle Kingdom. However, he did accomplish one thing, that most Chinese today are grateful for:

THE INTEGRITY OF THE CHINESE MAINLAND

Other than this, he was a great military strategist, but a failure of an Economist. China today owes its territorial integrity to Mao, but also owes 40 years of backward development and the insanely barbaric Cultural Revolution to Mao.

If it were up to me, I'd label Mao as a misguided general that kept China backward and poor for more than half a century.

Deng Xiao Ping was really the hero of Modern China. If anyone deserves full credit for the arrival of China, he does.

Mao gave China nuclear weapons, ICBMs, nuclear submarines, 80% literacy and 67 year lifespans when he died.

China's life expectancy surpassed South Korea's in 1976. Now we are lower than South Korea.

Mao just didn't emphasize the consumer economy. He did the best he could in education, healthcare and defense while under sanction. He was dealt a **** hand by the ROC and Japan, and he played his cards pretty well. Not the best, of course, he made severe mistakes, but turning 10% literacy, 37 year lifespan, have to import gunpowder, into makes nuclear missiles, 80% literacy, 67 year lifespan within 30 years is NOT EASY.

ROC couldn't do it in 37 years.

 

[Sasquatch]

Dr. Sun Yat Sen liberated China, Mao United China and built our military industry, Deng Economic Reform, jiang Military Modernization, they all had their faults but they shouldn't be disavowed without them China would be here today the way it is today.

 

[shuttler]

Under Mao, we had built our nuke and self defence system. We had our aero space foundation solidly laid down. We shrugged off the absolute control by foreign powers and eliminated foreign intentions of invasion!

Under the immense collective pressure from foreign powers which were perching on the trees like vultures looking for their Chinese preys again, it needs a tough man in tough times. There is nothing new in this Western Invasion Strategy.

1. islolation
2. sanction
3. wait for the collapse of your economic or social fabrics
4. political take over forming a puppet governement after a regime change or
5. military invaion.

Under Mao we were treading on thin wires at stage no 3!

Have the vultures flew away from the trees yet?

 

[doidoi2]

Mao gave China nuclear weapons, ICBMs, nuclear submarines, 80% literacy and 67 year lifespans when he died.

China's life expectancy surpassed South Korea's in 1976. Now we are lower than South Korea.

Mao just didn't emphasize the consumer economy. He did the best he could in education, healthcare and defense while under sanction. He was dealt a **** hand by the ROC and Japan, and he played his cards pretty well. Not the best, of course, he made severe mistakes, but turning 10% literacy, 37 year lifespan, have to import gunpowder, into makes nuclear missiles, 80% literacy, 67 year lifespan within 30 years is NOT EASY.

ROC couldn't do it in 37 years.

A lot of that was due to the resilience of the Chinese people. Regardless of who was in power, Chinese people will recover and prosper due to our ability to take hardships and work hard for a better future. The same goes for Japan and South Korea, and Taiwan and Hong Kong. How can you argue that his economic policies were good, considering that Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Singapore's economy ran laps around China's economy? Singapore was poor, so was Japan and SK. SK even had the Korean war, right in its most prosperous section of the nation.

Let's give credit where credit is due. South Korea, Japan, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore all had better economic policies than China. If China adopted capitalism earlier, we'd ALREADY be ahead of the US, not trying to catch up.

Look. Mao was good in the first parts of his reign. His worst years came in the Cultural Revolution. His disastrous policies to centralize farm production led directly to the starvation of millions. His Cultural Revolution wiped out all sense of morality in modern Chinese. Chinese society used to be a society of 礼 'Li -Manners.

We are now anything but. We don't queue properly. We don't respect others. Corruption is rampant.

I'm not saying Mao was all bad. He wasn't. I'm just saying that a lot of the policies he pursued was outright idiotic. If it wasn't for Deng, we'd still be in little grey Mao suits singing praise the Great Chairman songs. Kinda like how we deal with the North Koreans now. North Korea is really China, had China gone down the Mao's path of absolute communism.

Dr. Sun Yat Sen liberated China, Mao United China and built our military industry, Deng Economic Reform, jiang Military Modernization, they all had their faults but they shouldn't be disavowed without them China would be here today the way it is today.

Yeah, I agree. It's too bad Sun died early, otherwise the Chinese Civil War may not have happened and the Japanese may have been chased out a couple years earlier. Mao was undeniably a great figure then. I just wish he stepped down and let Zhou Enlai take over in his later years.

 

[gpit]

All my Brothers!

Let's not forget that was one of the darkest days of our modern China, immediately after another darkest periods of foreign invasions and Japanese atrocities of WWII. We have to remember them but we must put those days behind us. We must work tirelessly from now on to help to build a strong and prosperous China to ensure those days will never return again for our children and grand children.

Completely agree with you!

Mao was a saint and an evil at the same time.

Mao’s ruthless rule caused many trouble among Chinese families, but at the same time he eradicated many traditional dark sides. While it is not his personal fault in causing the starvation, rather the outcome of the system and natural disasters, Mao has to bear the main responsibility.

At the same time, please don’t forget, without Mao, China wouldn’t have been it is now: strong, powerful and prosperous, and at the same time, a rancorous envy of its incompetent rivals and enemies.

Internationally , under Mao’s leadership, the Chinese truly stand up against foreign powers. A typical example is the Korea War. Everyone, without a true victory in battlefield, China won’t stand among the world powers just by big-mouth (such as a typical Indian’s)! In comparison, nobody would pay attention what India says, at least not as much attention. Just look at 1962, a starved China with millions perished of hunger lifted its little finger, India military hawks crushed with a thud, so went along its international reputation because of its “non-alliance movement”, making India impotent vs China to today.

Domestically, under Mao’s leadership, the Chinese thrive enormously. A typical example is Chinese life expectancy increased from 35(1949) to 75 (2011), literacy rate is from 30% (1949) to 97%(2011)… In comparison, the biggest (shame of) democracy in China’s southern neighborhood has nothing to be proud in humanity development; It lags behind China in every aspect exception democracy and starvation.

Let's face it today: there is no starvation to death in China. Rather, it faces the problem of obesity instead. Whereas the biggest (shame of) democracy still has 2000000 children starved to death every fre@king year, and year after year! Let’s get together and condemn that (shame of) democracy, which can only compare it with a China 50 year ago, and praise the “authoritarianism” initialized by Mao!

Guys, be realistic. 50 years ago, it was a totally different world where material scarcity was the norm. In the USA, 7 million people starved to death in the great depression. The democracy had higher per capita starvation toll than communist China, if your education allows you to do simple data lookup and plain calculation.

Guys, one forum member has already done a calculation earlier: India democracy starved to death at least 4 times more its own people since its independence than Mao allegedly did. And the problem is: the shame still continues in this materially abundant world.

Your pick!