Many Haqqani Commanders Killed in NW OPS - Pak Army

[janon]

...
COIN warfare has very seldom been successful (in fact the the only example I can think of is Northern Ireland...and that was more a war for hearts and minds that was won by the Brits).
...

Umm..really? It seems that you are not aware of a certain neighbouring country called India. We have succesfully crushed far more insidious insurgencies than Britain has had to face in the past few decades.

Remember the Punjab insurgency? If you don't remember, that itself is a testament to the thumping success we had in eradicating it. That was one of the finest COIN campaigns ever waged, against insurgents who were extremely well trained and well armed and fortified, and even had the sympathy of the local population and even in the army and police forces. And where are they today?

Remember the N number of insurgencies we faced in the North-east for decades? But once B'desh and Myanmar co-operated with us, we eradicated every one of them, and they exist merely in name today. We had to set up a dedicated counter insurgency school for the army and select police units, simply to tackle them. (The CIJWS in Mizoram.) Do you hear anything anymore about ULFA or Bodo national front or Naga seperatists or Mizo forces or any of them? Nope - we succesfully made them extinct.

Remember the Kashmir insurgency of the early 90s, when local Kashmiris aided by Pakistanis and Afghans (including your worshipped mountain men) and Uzbeks and Chechens and Arabs funneled there by Hamid Gul after the Soviet war took arms against the Union of India? Where is that insurgency now? It exists only in the minds of delusional Pakistanis. Today the RR has complete area domination of that state, and with campaigns like Operation Sadbhavana, they have won back the hearts and minds of Kashmiris, which was lost due to the criminal political games in the 80s. Indian Kashmir is more peaceful than any part of Pakistan.

So just because you have a hard time winning a COIN, don't draw the invalid conclusion that nobody can do it.

 

[janon]

Sir,

There is no pushing of anyone into kashmir---the four layered razor sharp fence---the night vision---the motion detectors---the infra red sensors that have been deployed by india on the border----the only time there will be an incursion---only if the indian border forces would allow it.

But---if in truth---with all those barricades that you have installed and and all the money that you have spent on the sensors etc---and you still cannot stop them---then you got serious competency problems first of all---and secondly the dispute is so serious that the freedom fighters will do whatsoever to cross over.

It's a question of numbers. Before all that fencing and layered security wasput in place, Pakistan used to push "non state actors" in large numbers, which is why the insurgency in Kashmir was so daunting. With the border security in place, the numbers who can infiltrate have been reduced significantly, which is why there is peace in Kashmir. But it is not fool proof - a few can and do manage to infiltrate, but they cannot make any difference.

 

[Bouncer]

The statement was made by the military commander responsible for the North Waziristan Operations, not the ISPR.
Unsubstantiated skepticism (such as yours) on the part of commentators who cannot get the basic facts straight does not carry much credibility.

We have people in our country who'd believe any BS Pentagon report while plainly refusing to believe anything coming from ISPR or in this case a field commander in the field.

Some might say its because of history i.e. Pak supported certain groups in the past. But what they don't seem to understand is that foreign sources have their own agendas. I'd take the word of PA/ISPR any day over Pentagon etc.

 

[Bouncer]

It's a question of numbers. Before all that fencing and layered security wasput in place, Pakistan used to push "non state actors" in large numbers, which is why the insurgency in Kashmir was so daunting. With the border security in place, the numbers who can infiltrate have been reduced significantly, which is why there is peace in Kashmir. But it is not fool proof - a few can and do manage to infiltrate, but they cannot make any difference.

Off topic, but a serious question; what does your media say about the freedom fighters (or your terrorists) in Kashmir? Are/were they all sent by Pak? or some of them are natives also?

 

[janon]

Off topic, but a serious question; what does your media say about the freedom fighters (or your terrorists) in Kashmir? Are/were they all sent by Pak? or some of them are natives also?

Of course some of them are (were) natives. But in the past they got plenty of help from Pakistan, both in jihadis crossing over, as well as money, arms and training. Some of our Kashmiris used to go to Pak, get trained and return. But these days the border is much more secure, and difficult to infiltrate across, and the result is that Kashmir is peaceful. The insurgency is all but dead, and nobody takes separatists seriously anymore.

 

[Bouncer]

Of course some of them are (were) natives. But in the past they got plenty of help from Pakistan, both in jihadis crossing over, as well as money, arms and training. Some of our Kashmiris used to go to Pak, get trained and return. But these days the border is much more secure, and difficult to infiltrate across, and the result is that Kashmir is peaceful. The insurgency is all but dead, and nobody takes separatists seriously anymore.

Thanks. I can understand that if Indian sources claim that leadership, training, money etc was provided by Pakistanis for Kashmir struggle. But what are their views on 80k or so Kashmiris killed in the 90s? Days when entire valley used to get locked up in curfews. Do they see any indigenous struggle there?

Again, my information is based on Pakistani sources. I am asking just to know what an average Indian (fed by Indian media) thinks about these things. Please feel free to counter any thing I say in my post (like 80k dead, curfews etc).

 

[Selous]

Umm..really? It seems that you are not aware of a certain neighbouring country called India. We have succesfully crushed far more insidious insurgencies than Britain has had to face in the past few decades.

Remember the Punjab insurgency? If you don't remember, that itself is a testament to the thumping success we had in eradicating it. That was one of the finest COIN campaigns ever waged, against insurgents who were extremely well trained and well armed and fortified, and even had the sympathy of the local population and even in the army and police forces. And where are they today?

Remember the N number of insurgencies we faced in the North-east for decades? But once B'desh and Myanmar co-operated with us, we eradicated every one of them, and they exist merely in name today. We had to set up a dedicated counter insurgency school for the army and select police units, simply to tackle them. (The CIJWS in Mizoram.) Do you hear anything anymore about ULFA or Bodo national front or Naga seperatists or Mizo forces or any of them? Nope - we succesfully made them extinct.

Remember the Kashmir insurgency of the early 90s, when local Kashmiris aided by Pakistanis and Afghans (including your worshipped mountain men) and Uzbeks and Chechens and Arabs funneled there by Hamid Gul after the Soviet war took arms against the Union of India? Where is that insurgency now? It exists only in the minds of delusional Pakistanis. Today the RR has complete area domination of that state, and with campaigns like Operation Sadbhavana, they have won back the hearts and minds of Kashmiris, which was lost due to the criminal political games in the 80s. Indian Kashmir is more peaceful than any part of Pakistan.

So just because you have a hard time winning a COIN, don't draw the invalid conclusion that nobody can do it.

Oy man...If you Indians were as good as you claim at suppressing insurgencies you wouldn't have the situations you have in Assam, Dravida Nadu, Khalistan and Kashmir. The Nagalim insurgency you say that you broke is still active. The greatest COIN force in modern history was the Rhodesian Army (RLI, Greys Scouts, Selous Scouts, African Rifles etc)...they serve as the standard in COIN warfare. Although they never lost the war they were defeated by politics. Insurgencies are not easy to quell and are more difficult these days with ease of communication. Don't forget what happened to America in Iraq and Afghanistan. They have been reduced to bed wetting PTSD-suffering wrecks

 

[janon]

Dravida Nadu

LOL, come again?

I already explained about Khalistan and Assam and Kashmir. Do you see any insurgency in Punjab today? No, we completely and utterly annihilated it, which is why earlier I called it one of the finest COIN campaign. The north eastern ones are also dead, and the Kashmiri one is in its death throes.

Don't forget what happened to America in Iraq and Afghanistan. They have been reduced to bed wetting PTSD-suffering wrecks

I know that not everybody has won agaisnt insurgencies. But the point is that India has done so on many occasions, irrespective of what US has been able to do or not able to do. BTW you should remember that US is fighting half way around the world, in a different country. Look at the difficulty Pak is facing against insurgents in your own country, and then maybe you will be a bit more appreciative of American efforts.

And please do tell me a bit about "Dravida Nadu", where it is located, who is waging insurgency there, how many armed fighters that place has, how many army or police units are doing COIN there etc. Begin by pointing out the place on a map for me.

 

[Selous]

LOL, come again?

I already explained about Khalistan and Assam and Kashmir. Do you see any insurgency in Punjab today? No, we completely and utterly annihilated it, which is why earlier I called it one of the finest COIN campaign. The north eastern ones are also dead, and the Kashmiri one is in its death throes.



I know that not everybody has won agaisnt insurgencies. But the point is that India has done so on many occasions, irrespective of what US has been able to do or not able to do. BTW you should remember that US is fighting half way around the world, in a different country. Look at the difficulty Pak is facing against insurgents in your own country, and then maybe you will be a bit more appreciative of American efforts.

And please do tell me a bit about "Dravida Nadu", where it is located, who is waging insurgency there, how many armed fighters that place has, how many army or police units are doing COIN there etc. Begin by pointing out the place on a map for me.

Dravida Nadu/Dravidistan was/is supposed to be in Tamil Nadu...I don't think it came to be because it lost political traction

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pakistan airstrikes against Haqqani militants kill 20

PESHAWAR: Pakistanis officials said jet fighters on Tuesday (Nov 25) killed 20 suspected members of the feared Haqqani network, accused of some of the bloodiest attacks in Afghanistan including a blast that left 57 people dead last weekend.

The air strikes were carried out in the Doga Madakhel area of North Waziristan tribal district near the Afghan border, where the military has been mounting an offensive against militant strongholds since June.

The military said in a text message to journalists that "twenty terrorists were killed in precise aerial strikes in North Waziristan", without giving further details. Two intelligence officials in the northwest told AFP the jets targeted hideouts of the Haqqani network and of local warlord Hafiz Gul Bahadur.

Afghan officials said the Haqqanis, who are aligned with the Afghan Taliban, were behind Sunday's horrific suicide blast at a volleyball match in the east of the country. "The dead included seven fighters of Haqqanis while the rest belonged to Gul Bahadur," one intelligence official told AFP, requesting anonymity.

A second intelligence official confirmed that the target of Tuesday's airstrikes were the Haqqani network and fighters of Gul Bahadur. The official told AFP that a local Haqqani commander was among the dead, but his identity had not yet been ascertained. Bahadur, a prominent local warlord once seen as "pro-Pakistani", is unhappy with the military offensive in North Waziristan.

US officials have long urged Islamabad to do more to stop the Haqqanis using North Waziristan as a base to target Afghan and NATO troops across the border. Many believe that Pakistan's security services see the Haqqanis as an "asset" and maintain close links with them, with one senior US official once describing them as a "veritable arm" of the country's ISI spy agency.

A day before the airstrikes, a Western diplomat said the Pakistani military and government's stated commitment to pursue all insurgents was welcome. But the envoy voiced scepticism about whether this had been put into effect.

It was not possible independently to verify the casualties as media are banned from the area.

Pakistani jets and artillery began targeting rebel strongholds in North Waziristan in mid-June and ground forces moved in on Jun 30. The army says it has killed more than 1,100 militants and lost more than 100 soldiers since the start of the operation. An AFP tally based on regular updates from the military puts the militant death toll at nearly 1,500, with 125 soldiers killed.

- AFP/ec

Pakistan airstrikes against Haqqani militants kill 20 - Channel NewsAsia