Manohar Parrikar talks of all-women units, reignites combat role debate

[Abingdonboy]

Manohar Parrikar talks of all-women units, reignites combat role debate
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Jul 05, 2016, 02.27 AM IST

Parrikar said that if there is resistance on women leading all men units into combat, the idea of an all women battalion could be looked into.


NEW DELHI: Reigniting the debate on the role of women in combat duties, defence minister Manohar Parrikar has mooted the die of raising all women battalions in the army and has indicated that warships could shortly see women officers on board during missions.

In the strongest endorsement yet from the political setup on more involvement of women in the armed forces, Parrikar said that if there is resistance on women leading all men units into combat, the idea of an all women battalion could be looked into.

"In combat roles also there can be women. Why not have a complete women team, battalion of women. So the question of women officers leading a men's team, if there is question of initial resistance to it, can also be taken care of," the minister said at a FICCI event in the capital.

Acknowledging that the idea of women officers leading combat teams is a touchy subject within the armed forces, Parrikar said that despite his instructions, it took nearly four months for the forces to prepare a report on the subject. A meeting with the chiefs of the three armed forces is now expected to take place shortly to take action.

The minister also indicated that women officers could soon serve onboard warships as well but said that deployment on submarines could be an issue due to logistical concerns. "I don't understand why we can't place women on ships. At this stage I will not support a submarine operation be cause (of the way) submarines are designed. But ships can be modified and new ships can be designed to have facilities for women," the minister said.

He added that the idea of allowing girl cadets at the premier National Defence Academy as well as Sainik Schools is also being considered, indicating that these all male bastions could soon change their intake pattern.


Source:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...role-debate/articleshow/53052882.cms?from=mdr


+++
This is a good development.

We need them in active combat duties..

@Levina @Abingdonboy @anant_s @nair @MilSpec @GURU DUTT @zebra7 @others

An entirely pointless move IF it happens that I can only beleive is borne out of political compulsions.

As has been shown above, a large part of the utility of having women in frontline ground combat positions on the modern battlefield is for "hearts and minds" purposes, the US has quite a succesful experience with "female engagement teams" (females attatched to ground combat units) in Afghanistan but the question is where this would fit within the Indian context? If there is a genuine need for FETs in Kashmir or UN peace keeping missions (where all-female Indian Police teams have been, rightly, celebrated by the way) then so be it but raising all female combat units would be 100% for the "optics" and would serve ZERO operational requirement. Let the West with their cutting edge militaries engage in these social experiments, it will be a shameful waste of valuble resources that India simply cannot spare to raise, equip, train and support an all female combat unit that would never be employed in any conventional conflict.

Will the enemy decide to raise and deploy all-female units to face this btn? If not these all-female units would ALWAYS be at a distinct disadvantadge when going against all-male combat units and this would comprimise the operational effectivness of the Indian military as a whole.

That said, the only thing worse than all female combat btns would be mixed gender combat btns.


Another brain fart from the Defence Minister who is, yet again, devouting attention to meaningless endevours in a pathetic attempt to pretend he is "performing" in the Modi government.

@Levina @Bombaywalla @kbd-raaf @Roybot @Nilgiri @anant_s @Echo_419 @ayesha.a @acetophenol @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @nair @Joe Shearer

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Another brain fart from the Defence Minister who is, yet again, devouting attention to meaningless endevours in a pathetic attempt to pretend he is "performing" in the Modi government.

Dont blame Him

Blame the media ; After Air Force inducted women as Fighter pilots
he knew that There would be demands for women in Combat roles in the Army

He is just being a smart politician

In India everything that is said is not followed up

 

[Star Wars]

An entirely pointless move IF it happens that I can only beleive is borne out of political compulsions.

As has been shown above, a large part of the utility of having women in frontline ground combat positions on the modern battlefield is for "hearts and minds" purposes, the US has quite a succesful experience with "female engagement teams" (females attatched to ground combat units) in Afghanistan but the question is where this would fit within the Indian context? If there is a genuine need for FETs in Kashmir or UN peace keeping missions (where all-female Indian Police teams have been, rightly, celebrated by the way) then so be it but raising all female combat units would be 100% for the "optics" and would serve ZERO operational requirement. Let the West with their cutting edge militaries engage in these social experiments, it will be a shameful waste of valuble resources that India simply cannot spare to raise, equip, train and support an all female combat unit that would never be employed in any conventional conflict.

Will the enemy decide to raise and deploy all-female units to face this btn? If not these all-female units would ALWAYS be at a distinct disadvantadge when going against all-male combat units and this would comprimise the operational effectivness of the Indian military as a whole.

That said, the only thing worse than all female combat btns would be mixed gender combat btns.


Another brain fart from the Defence Minister who is, yet again, devouting attention to meaningless endevours in a pathetic attempt to pretend he is "performing" in the Modi government.

@Levina @Bombaywalla @kbd-raaf @Roybot @Nilgiri @anant_s @Echo_419 @ayesha.a @acetophenol @Water Car Engineer @MilSpec @nair @Joe Shearer

I wouldn't take him seriously with some of the things he says, he was supposed to retire and go to Goa like few months back as per him.. Besides, i doubt military requirements will be sacrificed just to get an all women's battalion. Tell me when we actually manage to get an all women's front line combat Battalion which will be....never...

In India everything that is said is not followed up

that will hopefully silence the feminists for a while.....

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Mixed battalions are absolutely ruled out

So this all women battalion is the only alternative

 

[Abingdonboy]

Dont blame Him

Blame the media ; After Air Force inducted women as Fighter pilots
he knew that There would be demands for women in Combat roles in the Army

He is just being a smart politician

In India everything that is said is not followed up

I wouldn't take him seriously with some of the things he says, he was supposed to retire and go to Goa like few months back as per him.. Besides, i doubt military requirements will be sacrificed just to get an all women's battalion. Tell me when we actually manage to get an all women's front line combat Battalion which will be....never...

I am sure the Military will actively stall any such proposals but it is the civlians that have the last say and if they are motivated enough it will become a reality. It really depends on the which compulsions are being pursued by the politicans and how this is framed.

No doubt the Indian media is playing their typical presstitute role here and @Stephen Cohen is 100% accurate in his comments that after the female fighter jocks (which were perfectly deserving) the next call would be to expand this to all combat roles (not that the media understand what this would entail). Because to some idiots equality should be pursued for the sake of equality.

Let's just hope a logic and fact based discussion on the merits of the inclusion of females in ground combat roles takes place centered around protecting national securty above all else, but Parrikar saying he sees no reason why an all female combat btn can't be raised certainly is a blow to this hope.

We have all woman battalions in BSF

They were posted in Punjab and ALSO in Bengal


http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/bsf-women-personnel-gun-down-pakistani-intruder-in-punjab-479396

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150816/jsp/bengal/story_37457.jsp#.V3unmtJ97IU

Entirely different to army units. These are border guards who mostly are used for frisking/detaining of female civlians, there is a justifable need to have females in such roles within the police.

Modern long range weapons and long range survellaince tools have made
it easier for women to be inducted in the army

They are already serving in the army in the medical, engineering,aviation, signals etc etc corps just NOT in ground combat roles and for understandable reasons. No matter how far technology moves foreward the role of the infantry will always be dirty and physically challenging, where physical ability is the greatest attribute. Contrary to common misconceptions the load on the average infantryman is actually increasing as time goes on, there is simply no way 90% of females would make the mark and even if they did all the empirical evidence suggests that mixed gender units perform signifcantly worse than all male or all female units and that all female units perform abysmally against all male units.

Women 100% have a place in the military, just not in ground combat roles.

 

[Star Wars]

I am sure the Military will actively stall any such proposals but it is the civlians that have the last say and if they are motivated enough it will become a reality. It really depends on the which compulsions are being pursued by the politicans and how this is framed.

No doubt the Indian media is playing their typical presstitute role here and @Stephen Cohen is 100% accurate in his comments that after the female fighter jocks (which were perfectly deserving) the next call would be to expand this to all combat roles (not that the media understand what this would entail). Because to some idiots equality should be pursued for the sake of equality.

Parrikar is a politician, Its best these things be laid to rest and quietly burried than this end up becoming one big issue where the liberal brigade will drum roll. The problems with being a democracy is you have to try to emotionally cater to everyone while only doing what is really necessary. You have to remember, majority of the Indians don't have a clue about Defense and at the same time you have to try to convince these people you are doing a good job, which is why Parrikar talks crap and while getting things done in the background.

 

[spectribution]

Parrikar is a politician, Its best these things be laid to rest and quietly burried than this end up becoming one big issue where the liberal brigade will drum roll. The problems with being a democracy is you have to try to emotionally cater to everyone while only doing what is really necessary. You have to remember, majority of the Indians don't have a clue about Defense and at the same time you have to try to convince these people you are doing a good job, which is why Parrikar talks crap and while getting things done in the background.

100% This

infiltrate govt. agents into the media and relentlessly hunt down west loving liberal dic* suking jhollawallas.

Modi govt. is already acting on NGOs. The media needs clean up as well.

BTW , this happens to be the most unbiased account (of all places NDTV!)

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/comb...-parrikar-says-change-will-be-gradual-1427911

Parrikar gave a sound byte to a feminist conference. Army has already said NO, going by his idea of all women battalions. Answer is in the query itself.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I'm going to catch flak for it, but I believe all women units are horribly outdated.

Around the world, from Russian airborne:
I've heard the rational, all the reasons ranging from the brutality of combat conditions, to medical exceptions and questions on the fitness or endurance of women, and I've seen them all thrown in the trash can where they belong.

Argue if you guys want, you're not convincing me otherwise. I've seen first hand how capable women are when serving alongside men.

I would love to have a sensible and reasoned discussion on this matter because I beleive that all the research into matter overwhelmingly supports that this is a TERRIBLE idea.

About 400 male and 100 female Marines participated in the Ground Combat Element Integrated Task Force study, which was conducted from October 2014 to July 2015

the Marines released an executive summary that said women in the study sustained significantly higher injury rates than men, were less accurate with infantry weapons and had more difficulty moving “wounded” troops off the battlefield.

--------------
In Canada, where a ban was lifted in 1989, the number of women in combat arms remains low and there are no specific physical requirements for any jobs in the Canadian land forces.

In Israel, which requires military service of its citizens, women in the vaunted Israel Defense Forces are restricted to serving in two light infantry border units when it comes to direct land combat.

---------
Meanwhile, Canada’s lack of specific physical requirements for military occupations stands in sharp contrast to the U.S. armed forces, which require combatants to be able to complete a number of specific tasks, some of them grueling, to become an infantryman.

“Canadian soldiers repeatedly pointed to low physical standards as a significant problem,” the Marine report said. “Most commanders and soldiers agreed that introducing occupation-specific, operationally relevant combat arms standards would be very helpful to both keep soldiers fit and to demonstrate that women (should they meet the standard) could operate on an equal footing with men.”

The report noted that, decades after the women-in-combat ban was lifted, Canadian women make up less than one-half of 1 percent of enlisted infantry members and of combat engineers, and less than 3 percent of the tank force.

Conversely, there are myths about the roles that women play in the Israel Defense Forces, which feminists hail as a place where women can do anything.

The IDF this year decided to retain a ban on women serving in the confined quarters of a tank. Women are restricted to support roles in special operations and are limited to service in only two light infantry border units.

“Integration of female soldiers into the IDF ground forces is far more limited than popularly believed in the U.S.,” the Marine Corps visitors found.

The IDF also does not hold women to the same standards. It practices “gender norming” in physical tests, as opposed to Mr. Carter’s pledge that standards will be the same for both sexes, or “gender neutral.”

IDF women have to be able to carry 30 percent of their body weight, but men must carry 70 percent.

The Marines interviewed a female officer and a male general, both of whom talked about keeping men and women in separate observation posts.

“Both leaders talked about the physical differences between men and women, and how important it was to monitor the soldiers closely so they did not hurt themselves,” the report said.

Men do not want to join the Caracal light infantry border patrol unit. Instead of a hoped-for 50-50 split, the battalion is 70 percent female.
-----------

Britain has studied the idea for years. Reports highlighted the increased incidence of injuries among women and the prospect that few will qualify for the gritty mission of closing in on and killing the enemy.

The U.S. Marine team visited the United Kingdom last year. Its report said British and European labor laws prohibit governments from putting workers in jobs that they know will lead to injuries.

“Evidence that female soldiers in the combat arms incurred a disproportionately high instance of serious injuries could invoke this provision, based on differences in the likelihood and severity of injuries,” the Marines concluded. “In such a case, allowing women to participate in ground close combat would be an act of negligence. Such a finding would force the British Government to exclude female soldiers from the combat arms.”

---------

A yearlong Marine Corps study trying to understand how gender integration would affect combat readiness has found that all-male units were faster, more lethal and able to evacuate casualties in less time.


Overall, according to a summary of the study, all-male squads performed better than mixed groups in 69 percent of the tasks evaluated.

--------


Speed:

Speed (p. 3)


Lethality:

Lethality (p. 3)


Injuries:

Injuries (p. 4)


And here are some raw numbers that help explain the different physiologies:

Physiology (p. 4)

View entire document with DocumentCloud


--------

JOHNSON: In 93 out of 134 tasks that we tested across the MOS's, the all-male groups outperformed the integrated groups.

BOWMAN: And those task basically tell how good a unit is in fighting the enemy. Johnson's study found that male-only squads, teams and crews outperform those mixed with males and females.


-----------

All-male units were faster in moving to a target, the study found, especially with a heavy weapon like a machine gun. They also had more hits on target and at a faster rate. And the number of females in those mixed-gender units was small. They tested with one woman, then two women. The numbers were kept low to reflect this reality. Women make up just 7 percent of the Marine Corps.

The study pointed to what it called notable differences in the amount of time it took an all-male unit to evacuate a wounded Marine compared to a mix-gender unit. In addition, women had trouble climbing over a barrier with their packs and often needed assistance. And they suffered more injuries, like stress fractures from carrying heavy packs. Still, the Marines included no specific time differences in the synopsis, and they said the findings do not necessarily mean that women should be barred from ground combat.

------------



Sources:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/dec/24/marine-corps-study-finds-few-women-in-combat-in-ot/
http://www.npr.org/2015/09/10/43924...ase-results-of-study-on-women-in-combat-units
http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/sto...p-short-marines-infantry-experiment/71979146/




I do not discount your personal expereinces but it is really just anecdotal evidence.


+ the US infantry does not have females in theri ranks (yet) the pics you have posted are of their FETs in Afghanistan but those females would not be infantry and would not have passed the same selection process and training criteria they are jsut attatched to the unit temporarily.

 

[Levina]

Manohar Parrikar talks of all-women units, reignites combat role debate
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau | Jul 05, 2016, 02.27 AM IST

Parrikar said that if there is resistance on women leading all men units into combat, the idea of an all women battalion could be looked into.


NEW DELHI: Reigniting the debate on the role of women in combat duties, defence minister Manohar Parrikar has mooted the die of raising all women battalions in the army and has indicated that warships could shortly see women officers on board during missions.

In the strongest endorsement yet from the political setup on more involvement of women in the armed forces, Parrikar said that if there is resistance on women leading all men units into combat, the idea of an all women battalion could be looked into.

"In combat roles also there can be women. Why not have a complete women team, battalion of women. So the question of women officers leading a men's team, if there is question of initial resistance to it, can also be taken care of," the minister said at a FICCI event in the capital.

Acknowledging that the idea of women officers leading combat teams is a touchy subject within the armed forces, Parrikar said that despite his instructions, it took nearly four months for the forces to prepare a report on the subject. A meeting with the chiefs of the three armed forces is now expected to take place shortly to take action.

The minister also indicated that women officers could soon serve onboard warships as well but said that deployment on submarines could be an issue due to logistical concerns. "I don't understand why we can't place women on ships. At this stage I will not support a submarine operation be cause (of the way) submarines are designed. But ships can be modified and new ships can be designed to have facilities for women," the minister said.

He added that the idea of allowing girl cadets at the premier National Defence Academy as well as Sainik Schools is also being considered, indicating that these all male bastions could soon change their intake pattern.


Source:http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...role-debate/articleshow/53052882.cms?from=mdr


+++
This is a good development.

We need them in active combat duties..

@Levina @Abingdonboy @anant_s @nair @MilSpec @GURU DUTT @zebra7 @others

Women in combat role- yes
All women battalions- No
The last known all women battalion was created by Russians in WWI, which was a huge disaster.

 

[spectribution]

Women in combat role- yes
All women battalions- No
The last known all women battalion was created by Russians in WWI, which was a huge disaster.

There is a saying in the military "you are as strong as the weakest link in your armor".
All data as shown by the USMC tests show that doing as you say is very stupid idea.

Equality is a human right but the armed forces can't believe in it because National Security cannot be compromised for pragmatism.

Cheers!

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

I am not in favour of all Women's battalion units. I mean this is Army for God's sake. Not some school exhibition.

If men's have problem with women's leading them, then purge those guys instead of bending backwards.

Mixed gender battalion is the way.

 

[spectribution]

I am not in favour of all Women's battalion units. I mean this is Army for God's sake. Not some school exhibition.

If men's have problem with women's leading them, then purge those guys instead of bending backwards.

Mixed gender battalion is the way.

Leading means passing MOS not just getting the post for a photo - op. This "purge" is an idiotic thing to say because our soldiers are above SJWs.

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

Leading means passing MOS not just getting the post for a photo - op. This "purge" is an idiotic thing to say because our soldiers are above SJWs.

What are SJW?

 

[spectribution]

What are SJW?

Social Justice Warrior i.e Jhollawallas i.e Radical Feminists i.e Liberal - Left i.e Kanhaiya Bhakts.

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

 

[Technofoxxy]

@Technogaianist

You should already know my thoughts on the matter, Spectre. I'm a female ex-service personal, what does PDF think my thoughts are?