Manmohan's legacy for Modi: A specially-designed fleet of BMW series

[JohnyD]

sophisticated security to the man on top is a status symbol..but for modi, I guess its very much needed!

 

[Contrarian]

That's the one thing I don't understand is to why do they use Air India. Just have a dedicated aircraft for the PM and President that is maintained by the Air Force, rather than relying on Air India. Which is terrible in such case.

I have to agree.
Just like for domestic visits PM has dedicated BBJ's under AirForce, so should IAF operate dedicated long range planes.

Its stupid to keep taking an IA plane.

 

[IndoUS]

I have to agree.
Just like for domestic visits PM has dedicated BBJ's under AirForce, so should IAF operate dedicated long range planes.

Its stupid to keep taking an IA plane.

Not to mention that they convert the AI plane every time PM and President has to travel abroad. The plane gets refitted and it usually takes time and money. Not to mention that AI also loses money when they have to divert a whole plane from normal duty. They should follow the US in the sense that they have a dedicated aircraft for the President which is only used by him. I am not saying we have to go all out and shell out money into the plane, but have a basic aircraft for the President and PM at least.

sophisticated security to the man on top is a status symbol..but for modi, I guess its very much needed!

Well considering he has ruffled some feathers across the border, it is more of need of the hour.

 

[ranjeet]

Not to mention that they convert the AI plane every time PM and President has to travel abroad. The plane gets refitted and it usually takes time and money. Not to mention that AI also loses money when they have to divert a whole plane from normal duty. They should follow the US in the sense that they have a dedicated aircraft for the President which is only used by him. I am not saying we have to go all out and shell out money into the plane, but have a basic aircraft for the President and PM at least.


Well considering he has ruffled some feathers across the border, it is more of need of the hour.

It's not only the people across the border who must be considered, I think (its most probably a conspiracy or figment of my imagination) but the real danger can be from western countries.

 

[Contrarian]

Not to mention that they convert the AI plane every time PM and President has to travel abroad. The plane gets refitted and it usually takes time and money. Not to mention that AI also loses money when they have to divert a whole plane from normal duty. They should follow the US in the sense that they have a dedicated aircraft for the President which is only used by him. I am not saying we have to go all out and shell out money into the plane, but have a basic aircraft for the President and PM at least.


Well considering he has ruffled some feathers across the border, it is more of need of the hour.

I disagree here.
I think the PM and his Cabinet need to be protected regardless of the cost. God knows we have wasted a lot of money in a lot of places though.

And if for that purpose, dedicated new planes have to be ordered, then they must. As the nation grows stronger, so would the PM ruffle feathers in a lot of countries. There is a need to protect him/her. And our current PM is probably the biggest target India has ever had with massive PR victory awaiting any pig who may succeed in their venture.

So money should not really be the going concern here.

It's not only the people across the border who must be considered, I think (its most probably a conspiracy or figment of my imagination) but the real danger can be from western countries.

I agree.
Interests of Nations keep changing with time. We would be as big a fools as our western neighbour if we ever buy the 'allies', 'brother country' and 'all weather friends' crap.

PM needs strict protocols of security. I'd also argue that any plane we buy from the west for this purpose would invariably have a number of bugs installed by 'friends'.

 

[karan21]

I think he must use Indian made cars. Indian made cars can be modified to be as safe as these BMWs. If the head of state can't use nation's cars then this is a matter of shame in my view.

 

[ranjeet]

I agree.
Interests of Nations keep changing with time. We would be as big a fools as our western neighbour if we ever buy the 'allies', 'brother country' and 'all weather friends' crap.

PM needs strict protocols of security. I'd also argue that any plane we buy from the west for this purpose would invariably have a number of bugs installed by 'friends'.

such terms are used by novices .... we are far more mature in terms of politics to believe in such terminologies. Indian PM irrespective of the party he/she belong to needs to be protected.

 

[IndoUS]

I disagree here.
I think the PM and his Cabinet need to be protected regardless of the cost. God knows we have wasted a lot of money in a lot of places though.

And if for that purpose, dedicated new planes have to be ordered, then they must. As the nation grows stronger, so would the PM ruffle feathers in a lot of countries. There is a need to protect him/her. And our current PM is probably the biggest target India has ever had with massive PR victory awaiting any pig who may succeed in their venture.

So money should not really be the going concern here.


I agree.
Interests of Nations keep changing with time. We would be as big a fools as our western neighbour if we ever buy the 'allies' and 'all weather friends' crap.

PM needs strict protocols of security. I'd also argue that any plane we buy from the west for this purpose would invariably have a number of bugs installed by 'friends'.

I understand that, I am talking in the sense, that we don't really need the extra baggage that the US has. Every time The US President travels any where around the world there is a dedicated fleet of two or three C-17 that travel to that said country before hand carrying with them the entire motorcade and other security things. Not to mention that the President travels with two planes one acting as a decoy.
I realize that as we grow we would need to provide the same type of security for our leaders. But for now if we can provide a proper plane with security system for our head of state then that would be enough for now.

 

[Abingdonboy]

And if he sticks to Scorpio, the SPG may have to order armoured Scorpios.

The Scorpios that Modi already travels in are armoured but that's irrelevant, the level of armouring that can be done to the Scorpios is still INCREDIBLY inferior to the BMW 7 Series Security's armour. BMW's Security line is known globally for its quality. Even with armouring the Scopios would go for maybe $30,000 the BMW 760 Li Security will come to around $200,000- you get what you pay for.

It isn't even all about the armour but the end product and the BWM 760 Li Security is an incredibly advanced Head of State vehicle just in a different world to an up-armoured Scorpio.

Honestly, I don't mind anything as long as he is safe.

Agreed, in that case let the SPG do their job and put him in the BMW.

Thanks to the pathetic performance of Indian aerospace sector, we don't have a domestic alternative to the 747s.

Well neither do China, Russia, Brazil, Germany, Japan etc etc point taken but it's a bit unrealistic at this stage to expect India to have a 747 alternative.

IAF already has a dedicated Air Force One jet for the PM, The Vice-President and the President of India. It is called as Rajdoot and was inducted in 2009 I presume.

The planes you refer to are the BBJs (Boeing Business Jet) based on the 737:

the IAF has 3 of these birds. However the range of them is so limited that they are only used for DOMESTIC transport by the PM/Pres. For international visits the IAF still uses an Air India 747 not to mention the 747 is larger so when travelling to foreign nations the PM/Pres is able to take a lot more staff and members of govt.

Oh please, he will use these foreign vehicles, because they are the best wrt protection and performance for high value targets. This has nothing to do with national pride or party politics, but simply with the fact that a nation has to protect it's head and also VIPs of foreign countries that visits India.
We have ordered Boeing Dreamliners for the VIP role, but Air Indias financial problems are a curse imo. They are already leasing some of their Dreamliners, although not the VIP once, but it still will cause issues, they might be better of, if diverted directly under IAF.

AFAIK the SPG/IAF were evaluating purchasing new wide-bodied airliners to replace the 747s but this has not been done yet. None of the 787s were meant for this role as far as I am aware.


Apparently the 777s were meant to do this but afaik the 747s are STILL being used for this role


Boeing 777s to zoom into Air India One fleet - Hindustan Times

Why not Jaguars? owned by Tata who also have Range Rovers would be very nice indeed! I like the 7 series though and these look like the new shapes!

Only head of state that uses Jaguars is the UK PM and that is due to tradition more than anything else. As far as head of state cars go the Germans- Mercades and BMW- dominate and it makes perfect sense for the SPG to have selected the 7 Series for the PM.

That's the one thing I don't understand is to why do they use Air India. Just have a dedicated aircraft for the PM and President that is maintained by the Air Force, rather than relying on Air India. Which is terrible in such case.

Agreed. It would be far cheaper in the long run and safer as well. Right now every time the PM/Pres needs to go abroad an Air India 747 is taken out of circulation, spends up to a week being reconfigured and the same on the return to Air India it causes interruption to Air India's fleet management schedules not to mention if it was a wholly owned IAF a/c they would have custody of the bird 24/7 and would know everything the planes did down to the second. The current system of chartering AI planes is just not efficient.

I hope the IAF's Communication SQD is allowed to induct their own wide-bodied long range a/c to compliment the BBJs, ERJ-145s and Mi-17 helos (which urgently need replacing again thanks to the AW-101 fiasco ).

 

[Abingdonboy]

I think he must use Indian made cars. Indian made cars can be modified to be as safe as these BMWs. If the head of state can't use nation's cars then this is a matter of shame in my view.

I'm sorry but utter utter nonsense bro. The Germans are world leaders in this field, if you start compromising on the PM's security just for some pathetic PR stunt then you deserve to see him dead. Luckily the SPG is smarter than this. The number of Heads of states using German vehicles as their official cars must be 80-90%.

I disagree here.
I think the PM and his Cabinet need to be protected regardless of the cost. God knows we have wasted a lot of money in a lot of places though.
And if for that purpose, dedicated new planes have to be ordered, then they must. As the nation grows stronger, so would the PM ruffle feathers in a lot of countries. There is a need to protect him/her. And our current PM is probably the biggest target India has ever had with massive PR victory awaiting any pig who may succeed in their venture.
So money should not really be the going concern here.
ranjeet said: ↑
It's not only the people across the border who must be considered, I think (its most probably a conspiracy or figment of my imagination) but the real danger can be from western countries.
I agree.
Interests of Nations keep changing with time. We would be as big a fools as our western neighbour if we ever buy the 'allies', 'brother country' and 'all weather friends' crap.
PM needs strict protocols of security. I'd also argue that any plane we buy from the west for this purpose would invariably have a number of bugs installed by 'friends'.

Well considering he has ruffled some feathers across the border, it is more of need of the hour.

Modi is by far the most under threat PM in India's history:

500 SPG guards to guard Narendra Modi - The Economic Times

 

[karan21]

I'm sorry but utter utter nonsense bro. The Germans are world leaders in this field, if you start compromising on the PM's security just for some pathetic PR stunt then you deserve to see him dead. Luckily the SPG is smarter than this. The number of Heads of states using German vehicles as their official cars must be 80-90%.

This is not nonsense!!!
If the British Prime Minister can use a Jaguar Land Rover vehicle for security, I am sure it would Indian security standards. JLR is Indian. I agree using a Scorpio or some other Indian made SUV is prolly not a good idea.

But the end of the day, cars can be modified. An Indian made SUV can be just as safe as the BMWs after massive modifications in materials and design. But yes that might end up being far more expensive.

 

[livingdead]

This is not nonsense!!!
If the British Prime Minister can use a Jaguar Land Rover vehicle for security, I am sure it would Indian security standards. JLR is Indian. I agree using a Scorpio or some other Indian made SUV is prolly not a good idea.

But the end of the day, cars can be modified. An Indian made SUV can be just as safe as the BMWs after massive modifications in materials and design. But yes that might end up being far more expensive.

jlr is not really Indian, its made in uk.
scorpio and amby are Indian.. may be pm should stick to amby..

 

[karan21]

jlr is not really Indian, its made in uk.
scorpio and amby are Indian.. may be pm should stick to amby..

Many parts of Mahindra and Tata cars, almost 30-40% are imported from Japan, Germany, Korea and China. We still refer to them as Indian cars. JLR is Indian owned, that's all that matters.

PS, JLR is slowly being indigenised.

 

[Abingdonboy]

This is not nonsense!!!
If the British Prime Minister can use a Jaguar Land Rover vehicle for security, I am sure it would Indian security standards. JLR is Indian. I agree using a Scorpio or some other Indian made SUV is prolly not a

Just because JLR is owned by an Indian company does NOT mean the products it has are a result of indian know-how, largely they are down to British and German engineering. I'm sorry but Indian products largely are inferior to those in the West due to the desire to keep costs down and the lack of the sort of stringent safety standards in the West. The Scorpio gets, what, 1-2 stars from EURO NCAP? The STANDARD BMW 7 Series gets 5 stars.


To get the Scorpio up to those standards you would have to replace pretty much every panel on it , get outside help (foreign) and the basic design might actually make it unviable as it was never designed to be up to 5-star EURO NCAP standard. The likes of BMW and Mercedes design their top-end Salons (7 Series and S-Class) with a armoured variant in mind from DAY ONE and so the basic safety aspects are already designed into the basic vehicle, simply up-armouing a bog-standard Scorpio or XUV 500 isn't good enough.


I'll make a military analogy for you. After 2004 the US Army and USMC set about "up-armouring" their "soft skinned" HUMVEES with armoured glass on door, protected turret position, added ballistic protection to the floor etc and while this was better than the un-armoured HUMVEES that were getting ripped to shreds it wasn't enough. HUMVEES were still being lost and killing their occupants because the BASIC DESIGN of the HUMVEE was flawed in the sense it wasn't designed for COIN/urban conflicts. As a result the US army and USMC spent BILLIONS buying MRAP (Mine Resistant Ambush Protected) vehicles which DRAMATICALLY cut down on the lives lost (to almost 0 incidentally). And do you think for a second that this:

(an up-armoured Scorpio)


Offers better protection than this:

Yeah right!

You have a need and you tailor the solution to it, you don't try to use an already flawed design and alter it a little- it just won't work.

One thing is for sure- NO existing Indian vehicle is up to the task, you'd need to have a design built form the ground up for this (like the POTUS's "Beast")


Now this is what I would Ideally like, for the SPG to tell the Indian automotive private players what they need in a PM's car (give the specs of the 7 Series Security or demand an improvement on this even) and let them come up with what they can and then let the SPG test them. If they are up to the task then induct them but if not don't risk the PM's life on some BS vanity project "oh look he's driving in an Indian car, i feel so proud".


However, I don't see this being economically viable in itself, the SPG are going to require only around 5-6 of these so that's a maybe $1-1.5MN deal at most. The amount of R&D needing to be spent to meet this criteria and then subsequent production costs would be in the 10s of millions- would TATA or Mahindra really devote such resources on a one-off vanity project that they would LOSE MONEY on? Who knows, maybe they would see it as a good marketing exercise? Anyway the likes of BMW and Mecades have not only the expertise in the field but an established business model and are churning these highly advanced and capable vehicles out at a rate that makes them relatively affordable (for Heads of State).

@karan21 , you and I can agree the PM's security and safety cannot be comprised for a vanity project, correct? If so then please abandon this call for an Indian vehicle as the PM's official car.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Many parts of Mahindra and Tata cars, almost 30-40% are imported from Japan, Germany, Korea and China. We still refer to them as Indian cars. JLR is Indian owned, that's all that matters.

PS, JLR is slowly being indigenised.

Irrelevant- the ONLY head of state/PM using JLR vehicles as his official vehicle is the PM of the UK for image purposes (Jaguar is still seen as a British brand). The question arises, why is he the only one? Simply the German products are MUCH better. The UK PM faces significantly less threats to his safety than an Indian PM and Modi at that (who's threat perception is now on another level).

Going for a JLR or Indian (TATA/Mahindra) product is take a step back, it would be a downgrade in the security offered to the Indian PM and this is at a time the SPG is ramping up Modi's security as he is the most at risk Indian PM in history.


Let the SPG do their job, they are the professionals, the BMWs were bought after they did an analysis of what they needed form a car. Don't interfere in their profession for God's sake, their job is more important than some petty image issues.