Mangalore college bans burqa in class

[vsdoc]

Also the headscarf isn't mentioned in the Quran according to many interpretations (i.e. of those who follow the Quran Alone), but I think it's mentioned in several ahadith and the vast majority of Muslims today follow ahadith (not that I believe in them, i'm mostly skeptical).

It is actually. We had a pretty technical discussion on this on another thread with numerical particulars of chapter and verse.

I of course as a non Muslim was Googling furiously.

Can you please help out for the sake of non Muslims here and explain to us the basic differences between the Quran and the Hadith (spelling?) and the Sura (?). Would seriously like an objective lesson in the origins.

I have another question linked to my reading up on Islam and Women during the last debate.

Is it true that the prophet asked Muslims to "beat lightly your wives" or something of that nature?

If so, how many Muslims here actually do? Or have men in the family who do?

 

[King Solomon]

Also the headscarf isn't mentioned in the Quran according to many interpretations (i.e. of those who follow the Quran Alone), but I think it's mentioned in several ahadith and the vast majority of Muslims today follow ahadith (not that I believe in them, i'm mostly skeptical).

Only God is the law-maker. Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) is the messenger of God. God's laws are mentioned in the Quran alone. Hadith can be complementary to Quran but by itself, cannot be a "law-maker".

It is prepostous some Muslims elevate Hadiths to the status of Quran and assumes Hadiths can be lawmaker. Besides, even if you consider hadiths to be "lawmaker", the hadiths which mentions the burka is weak and has chains missing in between. This is the hadith which mentions about burka:

(4092) 'Aisha said: Asthma', daughter of Abu Bakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) turned his attention from her. He said: O Asthma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of the body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands. (Note 3523) Volume 3, Book XXVII, Chapter 1535, and Hadith number 4092, titled: "How Much Beauty Can A Woman Display? Abu dawud

This is a mursal tradition i.e. the narrator who transmitted it from 'Aisha is missing.

 

[CrazyTycoon]

It is actually. We had a pretty technical discussion on this on another thread with numerical particulars of chapter and verse.

I of course as a non Muslim was Googling furiously.

Can you please help out for the sake of non Muslims here and explain to us the basic differences between the Quran and the Hadith (spelling?) and the Sura (?). Would seriously like an objective lesson in the origins.

I have another question linked to my reading up on Islam and Women during the last debate.

Is it true that the prophet asked Muslims to "beat lightly your wives" or something of that nature?

If so, how many Muslims here actually do? Or have men in the family who do?

Well, the Quran is what most muslims believe to be the infallible word of Allah/God. Ahadith literally means 'sayings', 'stories', 'traditions' etc and mostly refer to the sayings or traditions of the Prophet Muhammad (or what muslims believe to be his sayings as there are some that reject these sayings). No one can say for sure where they originated from but most ahadith were compiled by the major Imams a century or two after the Prophets death so theres no way to verify their authenticity.

Again, their is a ahadith mentioned where the Prophet supposedly says that, and most scholars interpret it as meaning 'beating the wife with something light such as a very light stick'. Again, some reject this including Sunnis.

There are many Muslims who beat their wives' (especially in countries such as KSA) and there are also many western men who beat there wives. As for the Muslims here, how am I supposed to know lol.

 

[Armstrong]

It is actually. We had a pretty technical discussion on this on another thread with numerical particulars of chapter and verse.

I of course as a non Muslim was Googling furiously.

Can you please help out for the sake of non Muslims here and explain to us the basic differences between the Quran and the Hadith (spelling?) and the Sura (?). Would seriously like an objective lesson in the origins.

Quran - The Words of God and Hadith - The Words and the Doings of the Prophet ! As such both the Quran and the Sahih (authentic) Hadith have canonical significance in Islam; in fact Islamic Jurisprudence or Shariah (in its more all encompassing form) uses the Quran, the Hadith, Ijima (consensus to form a legal opinion) and Qiyas (human analogy) - in that progression - as sources of Law !

I have another question linked to my reading up on Islam and Women during the last debate.

Is it true that the prophet asked Muslims to "beat lightly your wives" or something of that nature?

If so, how many Muslims here actually do? Or have men in the family who do?

As for your second question ! To the best of my knowledge two interpretations exist in this regard :

One is best elucidated here : Articles and FAQs about Islam, Muslims, Allah, Muhammad (pbuh), Quran, Hadith, Woman, Fiqh and Fatwa.

And the other over here : Wife beating is not allowed in Islam in any case!

P.S These don't take into account the interpretations of the Taliban or any other such extremist group ! I'm sure one already is privy to their stance on such issues.

P.P.S There exists a lot of room between either interpretation because religion is anything but an exact science !

 

[SQ8]

It is actually. We had a pretty technical discussion on this on another thread with numerical particulars of chapter and verse.

I of course as a non Muslim was Googling furiously.

Can you please help out for the sake of non Muslims here and explain to us the basic differences between the Quran and the Hadith (spelling?) and the Sura (?). Would seriously like an objective lesson in the origins.

I have another question linked to my reading up on Islam and Women during the last debate.

Is it true that the prophet asked Muslims to "beat lightly your wives" or something of that nature?

If so, how many Muslims here actually do? Or have men in the family who do?

I would caution in keeping this discussion objective and eventually making a point in link to the original topic.

However.
In addition to what armstrong said.
The Quran is the divine book, the word of god.. collection of the revelations to the Prophet via the Angel gabriel.
These were memorized and recorded by the Prophet's companions as he instructed them to do so.
There are NO..zip..zero.. mistakes in the Quran.. as it is today.. so it was then. due to a unique system of recording and remembrance.

The Hadiath are the sayings of the prophet..
Daily sentences he uttered.. to different people or on different occasions.. as advice,actions or observations.
He did not request these to be recorded, but his companions did record them and remembered them.
Which were later collected through another massive research undertaken by later Muslims.
They are not always accurate.. or stated the same way everywhere.


As to your contention on "beating your wife"..
It falls in the same category of beating kids to make them offer prayers.
It is a last resort to be undertaken for disobedient people...which most people do anyway.

However, just like the beard and other misunderstood things.. it has been taken as divine word and as first option.

Wife beating happens on the same ratio in Muslims as it happens elsewhere around the world.
The hadiath is rarely used(and if used) to justify domestic abuse...
Apart from that.. such hadiath are used to degenerate Islam along with other collective misunderstood ones.
ignoring all that is good about it..and only bashing on what is bad.

 

[King Solomon]

It is actually. We had a pretty technical discussion on this on another thread with numerical particulars of chapter and verse.

I of course as a non Muslim was Googling furiously.

Can you please help out for the sake of non Muslims here and explain to us the basic differences between the Quran and the Hadith (spelling?) and the Sura (?). Would seriously like an objective lesson in the origins.

I have another question linked to my reading up on Islam and Women during the last debate.

Is it true that the prophet asked Muslims to "beat lightly your wives" or something of that nature?

If so, how many Muslims here actually do? Or have men in the family who do?

Quran is considered by Muslims to be God's word. It is accepted by everyone that words of Quran has not changed since its inception because God himself has vowed to protect its integrity in the book.

Hadiths are written by some scholars (like Bukhari) who collected what our Prophet (pbuh) did and his actions from the sayings of other people of the time. Note: "hadith"s were collected 200-250+ year after our prophet (phuh)'s death. Due to the very long time period involved, it is very probable that these hadiths got corrupted in the memory of the people involved (remember it involves several generations). Therefore, nobody is mandated to follow hadiths to be a Muslim. Only those hadiths which are complementary to Quran and which do not go against Quran in the slightest bit.

Besides, in this time period, Umayyads were known to fabricate hadiths to further their agenda. There are some hadiths in Bukhari which slanders and maligns our Prophet in the worst unimaginable way.

Therefore, if you want to know Islam, then it would be better for you to read the translation of Quran (I would recommend sahih international as it is easy to read). Hadiths are not reliable sources to know about Islam. It is prepostous that many muslims elevate hadiths to the status of Quran.

Just so you know, nowhere in the Quran does it mention that you are permitted to beat your wife. In fact, Quran voices equal treatment for both men and women and quashes unfairness in any way.

 

[JayAtl]

Annoying in sense of what? because you're not able to see them? or do they block your view? I dont understand what is the problem with someone wearing a bura or hijab? You go there to study in whatever dress what makes you comfortable.

maybe in Islamic countries they do, but in secular democracies. you typically are not allowed to wear religious symbolic outfits to publicly funded learning centers. regardless of what religion you follow. besides the fact that this particular outfit is a huge security risk.

 

[Moorkh]

Gods and religions have no place in a place of learning. Actually they have no place outside of the mosque/temple/church .

That being said, it is a good move and should be emulated elsewhere. The number of things we let people get away with because of 'religion' is mind boggling. this varies from wearing tents to burning up tons and tons of gunpowder in 'celebration'. This needs to stop. If there is a uniform, everyone is mandated to wear it. religion does not come into the picture. if the woman wants to wear a burqa because she feels its 'trendy' let her. but when she is working as a nurse or attending some other institution with an uniform, she better wear that uniform.

This last part is going to annoy a lot of people but - " some people believe in an invisible voyeur in the sky, who has a list of things he doesnt want them to do. If these people do any of those things this voyeur will then damn them to hell where they will burn and be tortured over and over again in great pain for all eternity. But still these people believe that this voyeur loves them. these people are deluded at best and dumb at worst and these delusions of these deluded people should in no way force us to act in an illogical manner "

 

[vsdoc]

Thanks s19, crazytycoon, armstrong, and oscar for your replies.

Oscar, I am the last one to denigrate someone else's religion so please keep the faith.

The detailed discussion I was referring to was the thread about upper class well-off Pakistani women increasingly being attracted to conservative Islam.

The two passages are surah al nur and sura al ahzab.

There was NOTHING about the face or the eyes.

There was NOTHING about the hair as well.

So WHERE did the burqa come from?

Question: Are these Quran or Hadith?

Either way, the discussion went on to the "interpretation" of outer clothes, jilbab etc.

From what I can make of it, all subcontinental women, Hindu and Muslim, in their normal day to day traditional dresses, more than meet the requirements of the Quran with regard to head covering draped over the bossom.

The dupatta, odhni, pallu, etc. are all part and parcel of our dress.

The burqa, and all the other 4 connotations, are NOT from here.

Your prophet too was not from here.

But Islam has spread far beyond where it was born and was revealed.

Therefore the question is always going to be how verbal and to the letter do you live your lives by as good Muslims.

From what I read, the Hadith were written by mortal men, however learned and revered they were. And a long time after your prophet.

Hence my original question - is it Quran or Hadith.

And the other question about wife beating.

Because if your prophet exhorts you to wear the burqa and you must, then if he exhorts you to beat your wives, you must as well.

 

[blackops]

burqua is ban in my college too though head scarf is allowed but nothing that covers your face and hide your identity is allowed good move by them

 

[JanjaWeed]

St Aloysius college should go back to their old tradition of being boys only school & college. This whole burqa issue will not arise. Just maintain that tradition like the one carried on by St Agnes.. they are still a girls only school & college.. I think.

 

[takeiteasy]

St Aloysius college should go back to their old tradition of being boys only school & college. This whole burqa issue will not arise. Just maintain that tradition like the one carried on by St Agnes.. they are still a girls only school & college.. I think.

they don't want to bring religious symbols into the campus. pretty right decision. This is a Jesuit institutition just like St.Joseph's Trichy,TN. I've visited couple of times Aloyosious campus(when Fr.Denzil Lobo used to be the Principal) and Milagres church.

 

[RKhan]

This is weird, I cant see page 8 of this thread it keeps redirecting me to page 7.

 

[JanjaWeed]

they don't want to bring religious symbols into the campus. pretty right decision. This is a Jesuit institutition just like St.Joseph's Trichy,TN. I've visited couple of times Aloyosious campus(when Fr.Denzil Lobo used to be the Principal) and Milagres church.

If you have read my earliesr post.. that's what i said. St Aloysius used to be the symbol of prestige & discipline along with best educational standard, with uniform dress code. For that very reason.. St Aloysius used be the first choice for boys & St Agnes used to be first choice for girls those days. Obviously that standard has gone down off late in St Aloysius due to lack of discipline. It's good to see they are trying to bring it back..

 

[SQ8]

.

The two passages are surah al nur and sura al ahzab.

There was NOTHING about the face or the eyes.

There was NOTHING about the hair as well.

So WHERE did the burqa come from?

Question: Are these Quran or Hadith?

There is nothing on the Burqa.
no command to cover the eyes or face..
Whatever you see is cultural crossover being falsely paraded as religion.
There is the concept of Purdah.. which was practices by early subcontinent women as well..that is avoiding strangers(men).
And the chadar.. which was basically meant to conceal the curves of women and therefore remove any sort of temptation for any man..be it Muslim or non-Muslim.

Then there was the command to avoid going out alone or with Na-Mehrams(not family)...
Which is a protection..
1. For the off chance that women out alone become the target of ill intentions of strange men and have no one to defend themselves.
2. The chance that some people may wrongly interpret a woman out with a stranger.. or that illegitimate relations may develop due to such interactions.

Part 1 was definitely more prevalent in those times.. and does apply to some extent in ours...and the same goes for part 2.

As for the elite women going conservative..
its part of a targeted campaign by a very convincing woman at the helm of an organization.
They are good orators and have a generally clueless but rich audience.
Using an extremely twisted form of interpretation they convince these women of their wrongdoings with relation to their position in society..and offer this "path to heaven" in return for heavy monetary donation.
So much so that the lady and her organization have turned into multi-billionaires.
In her example.. many more of these false messiah's have spawned..